Romulans Vs. Cardassians

[Phily B]

I don't think the Federation wanted to escalate the war with Cardassia, especially with the Romulans having re-emerged. It was just easier for them to contain, cost less resources, and I don't think the Federation are suited to flat out "win" a war with many Empires - they don't conquer.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Don't get me wrong, oh yes Cardassian, had governmental control over many things on Cardassia.

However, the difference between the Tal Shiar and the Obsidian Order is that the Tal Shiar were also high ranking government officials, and also had authority over the military.

I think that's why the Tal Shiar survived-- they were too plugged into the government, where everyone was too afraid too defy them.

The Obsidian Order were prevented from owning or operating any type of military vessels.

The Cardassian military (and civilian government) did enough to keep them at arms length.
And that's why the civilian government and the military tore the Obsidian Order down completely in an uprising..

And the Obsidian order survived just fine - renamed (during the war) CIB.

No direct mention of this-- it appears to be a new, separate intelligence agency.

The Founders would never allow the same agency that tried to annihilate them, continue to exist with the same members in another form.

No species introduced in star trek is made up of morons - except, arguably, the packleds.
Bluntness/lack of finesse deosn't make one stupid.

True, but history has examples of huge armies being defeated or even wiped out, by much smaller armies.

Dukat was an experienced military officer (or seemed to be). I don't know how the Grand Nagus would have done in his place.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

Nightdiamond

Garak, in 'Rocks and shoals' directly said the former Obsidian order was renamed CIB - AKA the order most definitely survived.

Frankly, this makes sense - the power the Obsidian order had over the cardassian society FAR surpassed having a few political functions occupied (it knew everything - and could act on it) or a few ships (which, it so wished, it proved it can build - by building said ships).

True, but history has examples of huge armies being defeated or even wiped out, by much smaller armies.

In this regard, the cardassians have a negative record - they were driven off Bajor by rag-tag groups of freedom-fighters.

And - I suspect you underestimate the ferengi. When we saw them fight - in TNG - they were always dangerous; their technology was equal to the federation's.

 

[The Overlord]

Considering that Romulan and Cardassian socity are similar to each other, I'm a bit surprised the Romulan and Cardassian governments didn't have a formal alliance with each other. Their intelligence agencies had no problem forming an alliance and the Romulans were willing to ally themselves with the Klingons for a while, plus they seem to have the same enemies.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Considering that Romulan and Cardassian socity are similar to each other, I'm a bit surprised the Romulan and Cardassian governments didn't have a formal alliance with each other. Their intelligence agencies had no problem forming an alliance and the Romulans were willing to ally themselves with the Klingons for a while, plus they seem to have the same enemies.

Yep, they are almost mirror images of each other in some ways. Both had dissidents. Both were involved in the Omarion Nebula debacle.

I think the difference is, the dissidents and government managed to remove the Obsidian Order, while the Tal Shiar remained in tact because they were given too much authority.

Top level politicians were members of the Tal Shiar, so it's not a stretch to believe they could protect the organization more.

I think, upon a closer look, the Romulans are slightly more oppressive to their own citizens, the Cardassians extremely brutal (to non citizens).

Garak, in 'Rocks and shoals' directly said the former Obsidian order was renamed CIB - AKA the order most definitely survived.

Very good catch. I'll make the argument-- that statement could simply mean the CIB is the new replacement for the Obsidian Order, not so much the original organization, but what was installed in its place.

It would be strange to think the Founders would allow the same people and organization that tried to commit genocide against them, continue to exist in any form.

If the Obsidian Order was really that powerful, they would not had been destroyed in the first place.

In this regard, the cardassians have a negative record - they were driven off Bajor by rag-tag groups of freedom-fighters.

Now this one is in dispute. Some episodes say the withdrawal was a political decision. Depending on who you ask of course.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

Nightdiamond

Garak's wording in 'Rocks and shoals' was pretty clear in establishing that the Obsidian order was only renamed CIB AKA the order was not destroyed, it was as powerful as advertised, etc.


As for the founders, they almost certainly blamed ALL the cardassians for the Omarion nebula.

Consider:
In ds9:'The quickening', the founders condemned an entire species to die slowly, continuously of a biological weapon just because some of said species (the leaders from 200 years ago, all dead since long ago) had the nerve to defy the dominion.
What the cardassians did at Omarion nebula was far FAR worse - attempted genocide of the entire founder species, an unforgivable affront to the dominion.

If the dominion had won the war, the cardassians (all of them - not just the Obsisian order/CIB) would almost certainly have been dead the next day.
Until then, the founders were cynically squeezing dry the cardassians, getting all they could out of this 'resource'.

The fact that Dukat (who made the alliance with the dominion) and the rest of the cardassian people (who received the dominion with open arms) did not realise this fact is a testament to the level of indoctrination present throughout cardassian society 'Cardassia shall become the dominant power in the galaxy'.

True, but history has examples of huge armies being defeated or even wiped out, by much smaller armies.

In this regard, the cardassians have a negative record - they were driven off Bajor by rag-tag groups of freedom-fighters.

Now this one is in dispute. Some episodes say the withdrawal was a political decision. Depending on who you ask of course.

The withdrawal may well have been a political decision.

This merely means the cardassians could no longer afford to spend the resources needed to keep the bajoran system under control.
It also means the cardassians were unable to bring under control the bajoran resistance even after decades, despite overwhelming military superiority/total political control/etc.
A poor showing for the cardassians.

In general, whenever the situation required more than brute force, the cardassians consistently failed to deliver.