Romulans Vs. Cardassians

[Arpy]

Hi, I haven't posted in a while and I gotta first say I like the older, cooler, color scheme better.

That said, I think the Cardassians took over because they were a) interesting to look at, b) their society much still a mystery, and c) they more contemporary villains. The Tolkien elves that are the Vulcan/Romulans had their day but now we've got this skeleton/lizard people to consider. Their society is new and unclear to us - except that they seem more contemporary villains without blades or cloaks or Roman forums from which to declare stentorian decrees. These guys were Nazis with a reptilian mechanized and 20th century flavor rather than an arch flavor of the ancient past.

 

[JRoss]

I think seven seasons of one 'villian' (I really hate that word) would have been incredibly boring.

As opposed to the seven seasons of the Cardassians in DS9?

And, honoustly, I found the insights into Romulan culture that was given in the novels far more interesting and intriguing then the insights we got in the series. Although I feel this is true for a lot of alien cultures in Star Trek.

We missed the opportunity for more insights by having the Cardassians.

As much as I liked the Cardassians, I too felt that they were redundant.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

The difference between the romulans and cardassians as antagonists:

The romulans remind me of a villain from a '60 James Bond-ish series.
Huge ego, 'manifest destiny' to conquer the world - just because -, and fond of using overcomplicated strategies that end up being ineffectual (much like the villain trapping Bond in a complex trap - whose weakness is just its complexity).

The cardassians are a more realistic villain.
Huge ego, 'manifest destiny' to conquer the galaxy in order to get power/wealth, and direct/brutal - if they want to kill a few million bajorans, the cardassians don't plot to make the bajorans start a civil war (as the romulans would); they just set up extermination camps - Auschwitz style (as they have done on Bajor).


In other words, when it comes to 'atrocity', the romulans are the artist carefully crafting each piece, with time and effort.
The cardassians are the mass production capitalist - blunt, keeping it simple, and with a production/body-count far more impressive than the romulans'.

 

[TiberiusMaximus]

So as villains, the Rommies are con artists and the Cardassians are bank robbers.

 

[Nightdiamond]

The Romulans were portayed as a definite threat to the Federation, while the Cardassians were seen as only a smaller regional power.

The Romulans were too generic, like they started off as the space version of the roman empire and didn't develop much after that.
They always threatened to do something, but never really did much beyond that.

We actually saw what the Cardassians had done.

The Cardassians seemed more fleshed out, some with a conscience, and some totalitarian types that made them seem as creepy as hell at times.

They seemed to be behind the Feds, but I think if they had more of a head start and technology, they would be dangerous to the entire quadrant.

Because they were just that organized and efficient.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

The Romulans were portayed as a definite threat to the Federation, while the Cardassians were seen as only a smaller regional power.

Which made the whole DMZ treaty seemed kind of

Especially when you remember that from what I understand the war between the Cardassians and the Federation happened off screen during seasons 1 and 2 of TNG, when everything seemed kind of peaceful.

 

[Nightdiamond]

The Romulans were portayed as a definite threat to the Federation, while the Cardassians were seen as only a smaller regional power.

Which made the whole DMZ treaty seemed kind of

Especially when you remember that from what I understand the war between the Cardassians and the Federation happened off screen during seasons 1 and 2 of TNG, when everything seemed kind of peaceful.

The writers seem to have changed Cardassia's status after a few seasons. At first they seemed like a major superpower the Feds wanted to avoid going to war with, then suddenly they appear to be just a regional threat.

And all the 'resource poor' references you read from other sources.

All the same, the Romulans were all talk a lot of the times. The Cardassians tried to seize a star system with a fleet ready to go.

I think the Romulans could defeat them because they are more powerful, as well as the Federation, but somehow, according to TNG, they fought the Feds to a stalemate (border war).

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I've always imagined a lot of that is Cardassian strategy and tactics that makes a difference.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

The Romulans were portayed as a definite threat to the Federation, while the Cardassians were seen as only a smaller regional power.

Which made the whole DMZ treaty seemed kind of

Especially when you remember that from what I understand the war between the Cardassians and the Federation happened off screen during seasons 1 and 2 of TNG, when everything seemed kind of peaceful.

The writers seem to have changed Cardassia's status after a few seasons. At first they seemed like a major superpower the Feds wanted to avoid going to war with, then suddenly they appear to be just a regional threat.

Except the federation was always kicking their ass with one ship even in the first appearance.

 

[Nightdiamond]

The writers seem to have changed Cardassia's status after a few seasons. At first they seemed like a major superpower the Feds wanted to avoid going to war with, then suddenly they appear to be just a regional threat.

Except the federation was always kicking their ass with one ship even in the first appearance.

I know, it's weird- one ship takes out their best warships, yet the sense I got, at first at least, was that they were a dangerous superpower to fear.

Then Ds9, the "star charts", and all the other trek lit seem to tone them down a bit.
Maybe it was just the Galaxy style ships that could do that?

I've always imagined a lot of that is Cardassian strategy and tactics that makes a difference.

Yep. I think the problem is the Federation is bigger, had a headstart, and a lead on technology.

Like them or not, the Cardassians had their stuff together. If they had more ships, more tech, and less resource problems, then they could outfight the Federation, Klingons etc.

No wonder they always thought of themselves as 'the rightful rulers' of the quadrant-- 'if only'.

Never notice that before, but it makes sens..

 

[Edit_XYZ]

The Cardassians never impressed - or even surprised - with their subtlety of strategy and tactics.
They are a blunt instrument - much like their technology: make it simple, make it to last; much like their 'tribunals' with their already decided verdict.

That border war with the federation employed so few of the federation resources that Picard&co, during the war (seasons 1-3 of TNG) never even mentioned it, much less be inconvenienced by any sort of shortage, war-related mission, etc.
The cardassians fought to a stalemate because the much more powerful federation used only a small part of its resources in the war.

 

[Gul Re'jal]

The cardassians fought to a stalemate because the much more powerful federation used only a small part of its resources in the war.

But why would they do that? Wouldn't it be better to just quickly defeat the Cardassians and forget than fight for decades and give them several inhabited colonies in the end?

I don't buy that reasoning.

 

[The Dominion]

I think it was never mentioned because it was only happening at the borders way out in a general area, not to mention the actual war was over and the fights that were still going on were just skirmishes. Space is big and the Enterprise had lots of other places to go that wouldn't take them near the fighting. Besides, the Cardies weren't launching a full scale invasion of the Federation, they were contesting borders.

 

[Nightdiamond]

The Cardassians never impressed - or even surprised - with their subtlety of strategy and tactics.
They are a blunt instrument - much like their technology: make it simple, make it to last; much like their 'tribunals' with their already decided verdict.

That border war with the federation employed so few of the federation resources that Picard&co, during the war (seasons 1-3 of TNG) never even mentioned it, much less be inconvenienced by any sort of shortage, war-related mission, etc.
The cardassians fought to a stalemate because the much more powerful federation used only a small part of its resources in the war.

I agree in part- in their prewar state, the Cardassians could never really outfight the Federation.

The Federation was too big too powerful. But upon taking a closer look, the Cardassians did appear to have a strong infastructure. Science wise, military wise, logistical wise.

Dukat was directing the war strategy and for a moment was winning-- true, it was mostly Dominion ships, but it shows what could happen if they got their hands on a few thousand extra ships and tech.

They become really formidable.

They also had enough sense to keep the obsidian order out of too much government and military, unlike the Romulans, who gave the Tal Shiar control of just about everything.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

The Cardassians never impressed - or even surprised - with their subtlety of strategy and tactics.
They are a blunt instrument - much like their technology: make it simple, make it to last; much like their 'tribunals' with their already decided verdict.

That border war with the federation employed so few of the federation resources that Picard&co, during the war (seasons 1-3 of TNG) never even mentioned it, much less be inconvenienced by any sort of shortage, war-related mission, etc.
The cardassians fought to a stalemate because the much more powerful federation used only a small part of its resources in the war.

I agree in part- in their prewar state, the Cardassians could never really outfight the Federation.

The Federation was too big too powerful. But upon taking a closer look, the Cardassians did appear to have a strong infastructure. Science wise, military wise, logistical wise.

Prior to the dominion giving military technology to the cardassians, their military technology was far behind the federation's.
In 'Chain of command' it was established that the Enterprise alone could handle ~a dozen cardassian warships.

Dukat was directing the war strategy and for a moment was winning-- true, it was mostly Dominion ships, but it shows what could happen if they got their hands on a few thousand extra ships and tech.

They become really formidable.

Anyone who is not a moron becomes formidable with a few thousand dominion ships manned by jem'hadar.

What happened during the first months of the war?
The cardassians knew everything starfleet did (via their huge sensor array) and sent the jem'hadar in.
When the cardassians lost the sensor array and didn't know the federation's sweet spots anymore, they sent the jem'hadar along the border.
Simple, blunt, workable.

They also had enough sense to keep the obsidian order out of too much government and military, unlike the Romulans, who gave the Tal Shiar control of just about everything.

Their societal structure - again, the cardassian bluntness: the obsidian order knew every relevant detail of the lives of its citizens - it was all meticulously documented - and the cardassian citizens who disobeyed 'dissapeared' (after proper trial, of course).

No complicated social engineering strategies to keep the citizenry in check; the subtlety/efficiency of a sledgehammer.

I think it was never mentioned because it was only happening at the borders way out in a general area, not to mention the actual war was over and the fights that were still going on were just skirmishes. Space is big and the Enterprise had lots of other places to go that wouldn't take them near the fighting. Besides, the Cardies weren't launching a full scale invasion of the Federation, they were contesting borders.

The war (NOT after war skirmishes) took place during seasons 1-3 of TNG.
And yet, no mention of it by the crew of the Enterprise/other seen federation assets (which were in/near the federation and in constant communication with starfleet command), no shortages, no missions dedicated to the war. Can you imagine this happening during the dominion war?

The federation employed only a fraction of its resources in the cardassian border war. This is an established fact.

Why? That is a matter for specualtion.
Because it was enough to stop cardassian expansion in federation claimed territories? Because the federation was complacent by the time of TNG?

 

[ambessalion]

something else that no one else has mentioned is that the Romulans are in the beta quadrant, on the opposite side of the Federation from Bajor....

the cardassian and bajoran systems are only like 5 light years apart?

 

[Nightdiamond]

Anyone who is not a moron becomes formidable with a few thousand dominion ships manned by jem'hadar.

That's the main point though, the Cardassians are not morons--they know their military stuff.

It's possible that even with all the jem hadar ships, a leader that's well, stupid, could fowl up that advantage.

In Sacrifice of Angels, Weyoun wasn't able to see what Sisko's strategy was, though Dukat caught on quickly. (Not that it mattered much, unless Weyoun ordered something stupid).

Then you consider the technological/military feats the Cardassians accomplished-- Damar found out how to take down the mine field. Most likely he had Cardassian scientists working on it.

The planetary defense platforms-- these things seemed almost invulnerable and took out a good chunk of ships before they were deactivated. It looked like Cardassian technology. And all Damar's idea.

In contrast, look at what happened with Betazed. Their planet got conquered, because despite being in the more advanced Federation, their planetary defense system was outdated, and undermanned.

I get the impression that the Romulans are even more oppressive than the Cardassians. Speak the wrong thing in daylight and you're gone.

The Cardassians somehow managed to keep the Obsidian Order out of too much government, because when they fouled up they were gotten rid of permanently.

The Tal Shiar survived and remained in control. I still think both cultures are pretty messed up though.

something else that no one else has mentioned is that the Romulans are in the beta quadrant, on the opposite side of the Federation from Bajor....

the cardassian and bajoran systems are only like 5 light years apart?

I wouldn't want to be that close to a Cardassian border--too many things happen...

 

[The Dominion]

I think it was never mentioned because it was only happening at the borders way out in a general area, not to mention the actual war was over and the fights that were still going on were just skirmishes. Space is big and the Enterprise had lots of other places to go that wouldn't take them near the fighting. Besides, the Cardies weren't launching a full scale invasion of the Federation, they were contesting borders.

The war (NOT after war skirmishes) took place during seasons 1-3 of TNG.
And yet, no mention of it by the crew of the Enterprise/other seen federation assets (which were in/near the federation and in constant communication with starfleet command), no shortages, no missions dedicated to the war. Can you imagine this happening during the dominion war?

The federation employed only a fraction of its resources in the cardassian border war. This is an established fact.

Why? That is a matter for specualtion.
Because it was enough to stop cardassian expansion in federation claimed territories? Because the federation was complacent by the time of TNG?

I got this from Memory Alpha:

The Federation-Cardassian Wars, known in the Federation as the Cardassian Wars or Border Wars, were prolonged conflicts between the Federation and the Cardassian Union, which started as far back as 2347 and lasted into the 2350s. (Smaller skirmishes, not officially considered part of the wars, continued into the 2360s.) The ensuing stalemate by the mid-2360s advantaged neither side in firepower or territory. A 2367 truce enforced an end to hostilities but left key questions unresolved; the finalized treaty, unsigned until 2370,

Keeping in mind TNG took place from 2364-2370.

I can't remember where any of this was supposedly confirmed though. IIRC, the war was referred to being officially over a while ago in The Wounded. So technically speaking, the remaining conflict during that time =/= official part of the war? Where is it confirmed that the war was still taking place during TNG's first three seasons?

Anyone know the episodes that confirm this stuff?

 

[ambessalion]

Keeping in mind TNG took place from 2364-2370.

I can't remember where any of this was supposedly confirmed though. IIRC, the war was referred to being officially over a while ago in The Wounded. So technically speaking, the remaining conflict during that time =/= official part of the war? Where is it confirmed that the war was still taking place during TNG's first three seasons?

Anyone know the episodes that confirm this stuff?

as far as i know the war was mostly while OBrien was serving after maxwell....by 2363 he was on the Enterprise with Picard so it was over by then technically (as in the fighting had stopped) but there was no office treaty (as far as i know) until jellico commanded the enterprise in 2368(?)

 

[Edit_XYZ]

Anyone who is not a moron becomes formidable with a few thousand dominion ships manned by jem'hadar.

That's the main point though, the Cardassians are not morons--they know their military stuff.[...]Then you consider the technological/military feats the Cardassians accomplished-- Damar found out how to take down the mine field. Most likely he had Cardassian scientists working on it.

No species introduced in star trek is made up of morons - except, arguably, the packleds.

Bluntness/lack of finesse deosn't make one stupid.

If you want really want to find subtlety at cardassians, you should look at their internal politics.
When it comes to backstabbing each other, the cardassians give the romulans a run for their money.

The planetary defense platforms-- these things seemed almost invulnerable and took out a good chunk of ships before they were deactivated. It looked like Cardassian technology. And all Damar's idea.

Considering the platforms cardassian technology only is blatantly inconsistent with cardassian military technology showings from before they became part of the dominion.

The best explanation - those platforms heavily included dominion military technology.

In contrast, look at what happened with Betazed. Their planet got conquered, because despite being in the more advanced Federation, their planetary defense system was outdated, and undermanned.

Pretty complacent, eh?

The Cardassians somehow managed to keep the Obsidian Order out of too much government, because when they fouled up they were gotten rid of permanently.

Nightdiamond, how can you possibly say the Obsidian order was kept out of government when it knew every relevant detail of the life of every cardassian citizen and was acting on it?
The tal shiar was never shown as having even close to this level of control/oppression over romulan society.

And the Obsidian order survived just fine - renamed (during the war) CIB.

I think it was never mentioned because it was only happening at the borders way out in a general area, not to mention the actual war was over and the fights that were still going on were just skirmishes. Space is big and the Enterprise had lots of other places to go that wouldn't take them near the fighting. Besides, the Cardies weren't launching a full scale invasion of the Federation, they were contesting borders.

The war (NOT after war skirmishes) took place during seasons 1-3 of TNG.
And yet, no mention of it by the crew of the Enterprise/other seen federation assets (which were in/near the federation and in constant communication with starfleet command), no shortages, no missions dedicated to the war. Can you imagine this happening during the dominion war?

The federation employed only a fraction of its resources in the cardassian border war. This is an established fact.

Why? That is a matter for specualtion.
Because it was enough to stop cardassian expansion in federation claimed territories? Because the federation was complacent by the time of TNG?

I got this from Memory Alpha:

The Federation-Cardassian Wars, known in the Federation as the Cardassian Wars or Border Wars, were prolonged conflicts between the Federation and the Cardassian Union, which started as far back as 2347 and lasted into the 2350s. (Smaller skirmishes, not officially considered part of the wars, continued into the 2360s.) The ensuing stalemate by the mid-2360s advantaged neither side in firepower or territory. A 2367 truce enforced an end to hostilities but left key questions unresolved; the finalized treaty, unsigned until 2370,

Keeping in mind TNG took place from 2364-2370.

I can't remember where any of this was supposedly confirmed though. IIRC, the war was referred to being officially over a while ago in The Wounded. So technically speaking, the remaining conflict during that time =/= official part of the war? Where is it confirmed that the war was still taking place during TNG's first three seasons?

Anyone know the episodes that confirm this stuff?

As presented in the episodes, the chronology of the wars is ambiguous.

Some episodes imply the war ended in the 2350. Some imply the war lasted into the 2360.
Which explains the formulation "Smaller skirmishes, not officially considered part of the wars".

Fact is, the Cardassians see it as a major war (and referred to it thus), the Federation (starting from Picard&co upwards) as a "border conflict".