Romulans should've looked like Vulcans

[Anna Yolei]

I've never liked how different the Romulans looked from Vulcans. Why did TPTB do this in TNG and keep on doing it on Enterprise? I don't even need an arc or episode to explain that one away, since just about every Romulan episode points out the cousinship to Vulcan anyway.

 

[Anwar]

It was just the head makeup artists' idea. It wasn't some creative choice.

 

[Praetor]

The cross-breeding idea seems plausible given what we've seen crossbreeding in Trek as being capable of, but on a whole most races seem almost miraculously too compatible.

Still, if the Romulans interbred with the possibly native Remans (who might be fifth-cousins, twice-removed to start with for all we know) it might also explain why the Romulans felt so predjudiced towards them - they don't like being reminded that they once had to mate with their slaves.

Interesting that we didn't see any Reman women...

 

[RobertScorpio]

If we have to embrace the idea of ridged Rommies, then I'd go for the idea that it's a genetic mutation that is present in some of the population while others look just like Vulcans. It almost makes sense. But I wish none of them had the ridges at all.

I've sort of gone through different phases about that.....when I first saw the "new" Romulans in TNG, I thought the ridges looked totally stupid. Then after I got used to them, I started kind of liking them (as recently as my first post on this forum a week or two ago, if you happen to see it and wonder why my opinion has changed) though I've always thought they could be toned down a little. Like, thinner, and not as high. In the last few days, I've started thinking of them as kind of stupid again -- and not just for aesthetic reasons. Two thousand years (I think it was established somewhere that Surak was doing his stuff on Vulcan at about the same time as Jesus Christ was doing his stuff on Earth) is not enough time for those mutations to have occurred, and considering the xenophobic tendencies of most Romulans, I don't think they would have interbred with aliens to the extent necessary for the ridges to be so prevalent. And also, I agree with what some other people have said in this thread, that it would have made some interesting plots for them to be able to pass as Vulcans.

Someone said something about accents; I kind of liked Donatra's accent in Nemesis. It wasn't very pronounced, but it had just enough of a difference to it to be a little exotic. And the Romulan language in Diane Duane's (sp?) books was very flowing and fluid, which is the impression I got from Donatra's accent.

Oh, and by the way, keep those Ruffles jokes coming, I'm loving those.

The make-up for the Romulans on TNG was just awful.. the hair..the ridges...the ears...Awful in everyway.

Only a few Romulans have looked good to me in the past 25 years...The Romulan Ambassador in TUC..The Romulan senator in PALE MOONLIGHT..and the Defector Romulan..oh, and the dude in Phoenix episode on Voyager..thats it..Whoever decided to add the ridges was really off base..IMO

Rob

 

[JustKate]

The make-up for the Romulans on TNG was just awful.. the hair..the ridges...the ears...Awful in everyway.

Only a few Romulans have looked good to me in the past 25 years...The Romulan Ambassador in TUC..The Romulan senator in PALE MOONLIGHT..and the Defector Romulan..oh, and the dude in Phoenix episode on Voyager..thats it..Whoever decided to add the ridges was really off base..IMO

Rob

Oh, I don't think the appearance was "awful in every way" - not at all. I mean, I wouldn't want to dress that way, but goodness knows it made a very strong statement about the Romulans...who they were and what was important to them: duty, conformity, militarism.

And what more do you want from a costume than that?

I think of the appearance of TNG Romulans as being somewhat akin to the Mao jackets Chinese officials wore in the days of Mao Tse Tung, which were also supposed to convey the idea of devotion to duty, conformity and militarism.

Neither the Romulan costumes nor Mao jackets were alluring fashion, but then again, alluring fashion wasn't important to the Red Chinese, and it certainly wasn't to the Romulans, either.

 

[RobertScorpio]

The make-up for the Romulans on TNG was just awful.. the hair..the ridges...the ears...Awful in everyway.

Only a few Romulans have looked good to me in the past 25 years...The Romulan Ambassador in TUC..The Romulan senator in PALE MOONLIGHT..and the Defector Romulan..oh, and the dude in Phoenix episode on Voyager..thats it..Whoever decided to add the ridges was really off base..IMO

Rob

Oh, I don't think the appearance was "awful in every way" - not at all. I mean, I wouldn't want to dress that way, but goodness knows it made a very strong statement about the Romulans...who they were and what was important to them: duty, conformity, militarism.

And what more do you want from a costume than that?

I think of the appearance of TNG Romulans as being somewhat akin to the Mao jackets Chinese officials wore in the days of Mao Tse Tung, which were also supposed to convey duty, conformity and militarism.

Neither the Romulan costumes nor Mao jackets were alluring fashion, but then again, alluring fashion wasn't important to the Red Chinese, and it certainly wasn't to the Romulans, either.

The costumes were even worse..sorry. The Romulans, TNG onward, looked goofy, and I think, totally undercut the TOS era Romulans because of it. I could never take TNG Romulans as threats because of the silly make-up and jackets they had them in. The fake wigs, the ears just didn't look "RIGHT" and the costumes...the trifecta...

Sorry...just keeping it real. I'll take Mark Lenard's non-ridge over modern TNG Romulans. The fact they looked like Vulcans, as the earlier poster said, is what drove TREK's best Romulan episode ever; Balance of Terror..IMO. Making them look like THREE STOOGES with black wigs and fake ears in TNG, and with out the nuance that Lenard gave them, just relegated them to just another BUMPY HEADED alien of the week...

Rob

 

[JustKate]

^ You know, Robert, you really shouldn't shilly-shally - just come out and tell us how you feel!

I disagree, but I understand why you feel that way. "Balance of Terror" is one of my all-time favorite episodes, but I have no problem with either ridged or nonridged Romulans - I just think of them all as Romulans. I can understand why other people feel differently, though.

You really dislike the TNG brows, ears and hair more than those silly helmets in TOS? Different strokes, I always say.

But I do think the idea of conformity that the TNG Romulans conveyed was very effective. It could have been done in any of a number of ways, and perhaps one of those would have been better, but I think there is something...very interesting about a race that works so hard to make everybody look exactly alike. That says something pretty important about a society right there.

 

[Praetor]

The make-up for the Romulans on TNG was just awful.. the hair..the ridges...the ears...Awful in everyway.

Only a few Romulans have looked good to me in the past 25 years...The Romulan Ambassador in TUC..The Romulan senator in PALE MOONLIGHT..and the Defector Romulan..oh, and the dude in Phoenix episode on Voyager..thats it..Whoever decided to add the ridges was really off base..IMO

Rob

Oh, I don't think the appearance was "awful in every way" - not at all. I mean, I wouldn't want to dress that way, but goodness knows it made a very strong statement about the Romulans...who they were and what was important to them: duty, conformity, militarism.

And what more do you want from a costume than that?

I think of the appearance of TNG Romulans as being somewhat akin to the Mao jackets Chinese officials wore in the days of Mao Tse Tung, which were also supposed to convey duty, conformity and militarism.

Neither the Romulan costumes nor Mao jackets were alluring fashion, but then again, alluring fashion wasn't important to the Red Chinese, and it certainly wasn't to the Romulans, either.

I think JustKate has pretty effectively summed up what they were going for. They weren't meant to be attractive, they were meant to be Chi-Coms. I'll grant that there were some quality issues there, but no more than on TOS. Their Romulan costumes seemed made of scraps.

The fact that RobertScorpio doesn't like it just proves that you, sir, are not a Red Chinese.

It's interesting to me that despite the different sociopolitical evolutions, the Vulcans adopted almost the same bland uniform hairstyle and the same bland taste in fashion, albeit with more trapings of ceremony and tradition.

Does that make the Vulcans an analog for Taiwan?

 

[RobertScorpio]

The make-up for the Romulans on TNG was just awful.. the hair..the ridges...the ears...Awful in everyway.

Only a few Romulans have looked good to me in the past 25 years...The Romulan Ambassador in TUC..The Romulan senator in PALE MOONLIGHT..and the Defector Romulan..oh, and the dude in Phoenix episode on Voyager..thats it..Whoever decided to add the ridges was really off base..IMO

Rob

Oh, I don't think the appearance was "awful in every way" - not at all. I mean, I wouldn't want to dress that way, but goodness knows it made a very strong statement about the Romulans...who they were and what was important to them: duty, conformity, militarism.

And what more do you want from a costume than that?

I think of the appearance of TNG Romulans as being somewhat akin to the Mao jackets Chinese officials wore in the days of Mao Tse Tung, which were also supposed to convey duty, conformity and militarism.

Neither the Romulan costumes nor Mao jackets were alluring fashion, but then again, alluring fashion wasn't important to the Red Chinese, and it certainly wasn't to the Romulans, either.

I think JustKate has pretty effectively summed up what they were going for. They weren't meant to be attractive, they were meant to be Chi-Coms. I'll grant that there were some quality issues there, but no more than on TOS. Their Romulan costumes seemed made of scraps.

The fact that RobertScorpio doesn't like it just proves that you, sir, are not a Red Chinese.

It's interesting to me that despite the different sociopolitical evolutions, the Vulcans adopted almost the same bland uniform hairstyle and the same bland taste in fashion, albeit with more trapings of ceremony and tradition.

Does that make the Vulcans an analog for Taiwan?

I don't like the Romulan change because the entire message of BALANCE OF TERROR is how we project racism on those who look like our enemies (I have a friend from India who is contantly looked upon with suspicious eyes because he looks like an Iranian)

To me BOT was not about the cloaking device or the FX...its about humanity. And gutting that message for whatever reason TNG did it was just..well...wrong headed.

And then TUC comes along and has a regular Romulan in it. I am not sure who made that Romulan Ambassador look TOSish, but something tells me it was Nimoy/Meyer/Bennett..and I say...GOOD!!

Rob

 

[Praetor]

I don't like the Romulan change because the entire message of BALANCE OF TERROR is how we project racism on those who look like our enemies (I have a friend from India who is contantly looked upon with suspicious eyes because he looks like an Iranian)

To me BOT was not about the cloaking device or the FX...its about humanity. And gutting that message for whatever reason TNG did it was just..well...wrong headed.

And then TUC comes along and has a regular Romulan in it. I am not sure who made that Romulan Ambassador look TOSish, but something tells me it was Nimoy/Meyer/Bennett..and I say...GOOD!!

Rob

Well I can appreciate and agree with that sentiment, but it seems more like the change you object to is the ridges, not the costumes and hair styles.

 

[JustKate]

But...the TOS Romulans don't look "like our enemies" - they look like our friends.

I must admit that I haven't seen that episode in a while, but the message I got from "Balance of Terror" is that you can have two good people (Kirk and the Romulan commander) both with good intentions, neither wanting to go to war, but that's not enough. Of course, the episode is so good and so effective that there's no reason why you can't find more than one message there.

 

[Praetor]

That's more what I get from it too, JustKate. However, I think what he's talking about is the way Stiles reacts to Spock when they find out what the Romulans look like, and that, by extension, as a metaphor for racism and suspicion solely based on a friend looking like an enemy and vice versa.

 

[RobertScorpio]

That's more what I get from it too, JustKate. However, I think what he's talking about is the way Stiles reacts to Spock when they find out what the Romulans look like, and that, by extension, as a metaphor for racism and suspicion solely based on a friend looking like an enemy and vice versa.

Which is what that episode really is about. Thats what makes the episode as powerful as it is; not the cloaking device stuff IMO.

But more to the point? The make-up for the Romulans, IMO, in the modern TREKs just wasn't appealing. I am so glad TREK XI is doing that they're doing, because, IMO, TNG make-up artist turned the Romulans of TOS into goofy looking, wig wearing actors with awful pointy ears. The very memory of them makes my stomach turn.

And then???? They gave the modern Vulcans their 'tune-up' and ruined them as well. At least NIMOY and LENARD didn't have the new heads because they would have looked silly.

Rob

 

[JustKate]

That's more what I get from it too, JustKate. However, I think what he's talking about is the way Stiles reacts to Spock when they find out what the Romulans look like, and that, by extension, as a metaphor for racism and suspicion solely based on a friend looking like an enemy and vice versa.

Which is what that episode really is about. Thats what makes the episode as powerful as it is; not the cloaking device stuff IMO.

But more to the point? The make-up for the Romulans, IMO, in the modern TREKs just wasn't appealing. I am so glad TREK XI is doing that they're doing, because, IMO, TNG make-up artist turned the Romulans of TOS into goofy looking, wig wearing actors with awful pointy ears. The very memory of them makes my stomach turn.

And then???? They gave the modern Vulcans their 'tune-up' and ruined them as well. At least NIMOY and LENARD didn't have the new heads because they would have looked silly.

Rob

Oh, I see. Well, I think the message about racism and the message about how hard it can sometimes be to avoid war are what the episode is "really about" - why does it have to be one or the other? Both are really great messages, aren't they? For me, the connection between Kirk and the commander, the tragedy of "I might have called you 'friend'," became the center of the episode, much more so than the ugliness with Stiles, which became (for me though apparently not for everybody) the B-plot. Who knows? Next time I watch it, the Stiles-Spock dynamic might be the dominant one for me.

It seems to me that if Stiles was going to react to Spock based on his resemblance to the Romulans, the resemblance didn't need to be exact in order for him to feel that way. If he had a tendency to look for enemies even among a crew of honorable and trustworthy officers, he was going to find himself an enemy whether he had a good reason or not. A vague resemblance is enough for that kind of person. For example, Robert, I would guess that your Indian friend doesn't really look or sound that much like an Iranian. He doesn't have to, for people with the "right" sort of prejudice. For those people, he's close enough, and that's all that matters to them.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree on the "silly" make-up - it's not that I don't understand how you feel, it's just that unlike you, I just can't get excited about it one way or the other. Nothing wrong with or surprising about that - no doubt there are things that drive me crazy that wouldn't bother you at all. But so far, nothing that's been done to the appearance of the Romulans or the Vulcans has bothered me. Which isn't to say that nothing ever will since I am perfectly capable of being bothered by all sorts of things.

 

[c0rnedfr0g]

Considering the big song and dance ENT did to explain the differences in appearance between TOS and later Klingots, I'm surprised the Romulans did not look like TOS Romulans (or at least had some crazy explanation as to why they didn't).

 

[JustKate]

^ Crazy explanations to explain changes in appearance! No! Surely not!

But if you are looking for any, there are some in this very thread.

 

[Praetor]

That's more what I get from it too, JustKate. However, I think what he's talking about is the way Stiles reacts to Spock when they find out what the Romulans look like, and that, by extension, as a metaphor for racism and suspicion solely based on a friend looking like an enemy and vice versa.

Which is what that episode really is about. Thats what makes the episode as powerful as it is; not the cloaking device stuff IMO.

But more to the point? The make-up for the Romulans, IMO, in the modern TREKs just wasn't appealing. I am so glad TREK XI is doing that they're doing, because, IMO, TNG make-up artist turned the Romulans of TOS into goofy looking, wig wearing actors with awful pointy ears. The very memory of them makes my stomach turn.

And then???? They gave the modern Vulcans their 'tune-up' and ruined them as well. At least NIMOY and LENARD didn't have the new heads because they would have looked silly.

Rob

Oh, I see. Well, I think the message about racism and the message about how hard it can sometimes be to avoid war are what the episode is "really about" - why does it have to be one or the other? Both are really great messages, aren't they? For me, the connection between Kirk and the commander, the trajedy of "I might have called you 'friend'," became the center of the episode, much more so than the ugliness with Stiles, which became (for me though apparently not for everybody) the B-plot. Who knows? Next time I watch it, the Stiles-Spock dynamic might be the dominant one for me.

It seems to me that if Stiles was going to react to Spock based on his resemblance to the Romulans, the resemblance didn't need to be exact in order for him to feel that way. If he had a tendency to look for enemies even among a crew of honorable and trustworthy officers, he was going to find himself an enemy whether he had a good reason or not. A vague resemblance is enough for that kind of person. For example, Robert, I would guess that your Indian friend doesn't really look or sound that much like an Iranian. He doesn't have to, for people with the "right" sort of prejudice. For those people, he's close enough, and that's all that matters to them.

Exactly.

 

[Anwar]

Really, I think the "Romulans and Vulcans are related and both realize this" is far more powerful than "They look exactly alike". I mean with the latter all you get was some random B-plot about a racist crewmember whose entire story could have been cut out and it wouldn't change a thing, but with the former you get a whole new dimension to the Vulcans and to Spock which led to the great "Enterprise Incident" with him and the Romulan Commander wherein it was 50% of the main plot. Plus lots of other Romuland/Vulcan stories as well.

So it doesn't matter them looking exactly the same, just similar enough and with the realization of shared history.

 

[JustKate]

^ Very good point, Anwar. It added a LOT to the backstories of both these species, that's for sure. You've got it exactly right - "a new dimension."

 

[pookha]

The make-up for the Romulans on TNG was just awful.. the hair..the ridges...the ears...Awful in everyway.

Only a few Romulans have looked good to me in the past 25 years...The Romulan Ambassador in TUC..The Romulan senator in PALE MOONLIGHT..and the Defector Romulan..oh, and the dude in Phoenix episode on Voyager..thats it..Whoever decided to add the ridges was really off base..IMO

Rob

Oh, I don't think the appearance was "awful in every way" - not at all. I mean, I wouldn't want to dress that way, but goodness knows it made a very strong statement about the Romulans...who they were and what was important to them: duty, conformity, militarism.

And what more do you want from a costume than that?

I think of the appearance of TNG Romulans as being somewhat akin to the Mao jackets Chinese officials wore in the days of Mao Tse Tung, which were also supposed to convey duty, conformity and militarism.

Neither the Romulan costumes nor Mao jackets were alluring fashion, but then again, alluring fashion wasn't important to the Red Chinese, and it certainly wasn't to the Romulans, either.

I think JustKate has pretty effectively summed up what they were going for. They weren't meant to be attractive, they were meant to be Chi-Coms. I'll grant that there were some quality issues there, but no more than on TOS. Their Romulan costumes seemed made of scraps.

The fact that RobertScorpio doesn't like it just proves that you, sir, are not a Red Chinese.

It's interesting to me that despite the different sociopolitical evolutions, the Vulcans adopted almost the same bland uniform hairstyle and the same bland taste in fashion, albeit with more trapings of ceremony and tradition.

Does that make the Vulcans an analog for Taiwan?

but the interesting this is the vulcan didnt become that until tng.

go look at tpring and even tpau for that matter.