Knowing Spock as we do, he was raising one of his own eyebrows.
Romulans should've looked like Vulcans
- Thread starter commodore64
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Knowing Spock as we do, he was raising one of his own eyebrows.
Why can't the ridges be hormonally linked? Perhaps all Vulcans and Romulans would develop forehead ridges, but with Vulcan meditation methods these ridges are not developed in adulthood, while for the Romulans with no emotional control, the ridges appear in some adults? Perhaps the appearnce of ridges is directly linked to theior agressiveness like testosterone and as time passed through the Romulan genetic pool the agressive peoples killed or outbred the submissives?
That's what I have been saying all along: the ridges are forehead erections, considered to be of poor taste among Vulcans and therefore suppressed either by thinking of baseball or by taking suitable medication. Romulans in turn defiantly flaunt their ridges, save for a few old men who let theirs flatten out as the burdens of the world weigh on them. If Spock allowed himself to be angry or horny or jealous or embarrassed long enough, his ridges would bulge as well...
Timo Saloniemi
Timo Saloniemi
If we have to embrace the idea of ridged Rommies, then I'd go for the idea that it's a genetic mutation that is present in some of the population while others look just like Vulcans. It almost makes sense. But I wish none of them had the ridges at all.
I've sort of gone through different phases about that.....when I first saw the "new" Romulans in TNG, I thought the ridges looked totally stupid. Then after I got used to them, I started kind of liking them (as recently as my first post on this forum a week or two ago, if you happen to see it and wonder why my opinion has changed) though I've always thought they could be toned down a little. Like, thinner, and not as high. In the last few days, I've started thinking of them as kind of stupid again -- and not just for aesthetic reasons. Two thousand years (I think it was established somewhere that Surak was doing his stuff on Vulcan at about the same time as Jesus Christ was doing his stuff on Earth) is not enough time for those mutations to have occurred, and considering the xenophobic tendencies of most Romulans, I don't think they would have interbred with aliens to the extent necessary for the ridges to be so prevalent. And also, I agree with what some other people have said in this thread, that it would have made some interesting plots for them to be able to pass as Vulcans.
Someone said something about accents; I kind of liked Donatra's accent in Nemesis. It wasn't very pronounced, but it had just enough of a difference to it to be a little exotic. And the Romulan language in Diane Duane's (sp?) books was very flowing and fluid, which is the impression I got from Donatra's accent.
Oh, and by the way, keep those Ruffles jokes coming, I'm loving those.
I've sort of gone through different phases about that.....when I first saw the "new" Romulans in TNG, I thought the ridges looked totally stupid. Then after I got used to them, I started kind of liking them (as recently as my first post on this forum a week or two ago, if you happen to see it and wonder why my opinion has changed) though I've always thought they could be toned down a little. Like, thinner, and not as high. In the last few days, I've started thinking of them as kind of stupid again -- and not just for aesthetic reasons. Two thousand years (I think it was established somewhere that Surak was doing his stuff on Vulcan at about the same time as Jesus Christ was doing his stuff on Earth) is not enough time for those mutations to have occurred, and considering the xenophobic tendencies of most Romulans, I don't think they would have interbred with aliens to the extent necessary for the ridges to be so prevalent. And also, I agree with what some other people have said in this thread, that it would have made some interesting plots for them to be able to pass as Vulcans.
Someone said something about accents; I kind of liked Donatra's accent in Nemesis. It wasn't very pronounced, but it had just enough of a difference to it to be a little exotic. And the Romulan language in Diane Duane's (sp?) books was very flowing and fluid, which is the impression I got from Donatra's accent.
Oh, and by the way, keep those Ruffles jokes coming, I'm loving those.
I am opposed to the ridges as the main appeal for me with the Romulans is that they are a glimpse into the not so distant past of Vulcans - my favorite ST race.
I think they should have had a much larger role in Enterprise mainly because the federation was due a war with the Romulans and seeing as how they made the Romulans' attack in the series 4 arc's a factor in joining the Andorians, Telerites, Humans and Vulcans they may as well have made it slightly more realistic to have it happen gradually over time, allowing the major threat to be the reason behind the unification.
If they had looked the same (sans ridges) then they could have infilltrated Vulcan and therefore Earth and left everyone entirely in the dark about how the got inside information. It also would have made everyone suspicous of everyone else and added a lot of tension.
But the fact that it happened at all without those races ever seeing the Romulans proves that it could have been done within canon.
However, to manage with what we where given, I will mention that wolves in the wild have pointy, erect ears while dogs have floppy ears ( except for ones bred to look different ) And experiments with wild Foxes have proven that only 4 generations of domestication are needed to cause this rather large difference. So perhaps there behavior and lifestyle over the centuries could have accounted for the ridges and the ones without are simply Chiwawa's.
I think they should have had a much larger role in Enterprise mainly because the federation was due a war with the Romulans and seeing as how they made the Romulans' attack in the series 4 arc's a factor in joining the Andorians, Telerites, Humans and Vulcans they may as well have made it slightly more realistic to have it happen gradually over time, allowing the major threat to be the reason behind the unification.
If they had looked the same (sans ridges) then they could have infilltrated Vulcan and therefore Earth and left everyone entirely in the dark about how the got inside information. It also would have made everyone suspicous of everyone else and added a lot of tension.
But the fact that it happened at all without those races ever seeing the Romulans proves that it could have been done within canon.
However, to manage with what we where given, I will mention that wolves in the wild have pointy, erect ears while dogs have floppy ears ( except for ones bred to look different ) And experiments with wild Foxes have proven that only 4 generations of domestication are needed to cause this rather large difference. So perhaps there behavior and lifestyle over the centuries could have accounted for the ridges and the ones without are simply Chiwawa's.
Alyssa, I think you're right about the appeal of reminding us of Vulcans.
I also think, though, one of the most exciting thing about the Romulans is what we see in Balance of Terror -- confusion between Vulcans and Romulans. The exciting thing about Romulans is you may not know your enemy from your ally. It's why Stiles wonders if Spock is suddenly a Romulan. I mean, even having them look different, they seemed to use that idea many times even in TNG -- Romulans dressing up as Vulcans and vice versa.
I'm sure environment (hot climate, cold climate, etc.) does show deviations, and I think we've seen that in even humans.
I believe Berman didn't show us the difference between Vulcans and Romulans to prove the environmental impact, but because he thought the audience needed to know the difference between the two races.
I also think, though, one of the most exciting thing about the Romulans is what we see in Balance of Terror -- confusion between Vulcans and Romulans. The exciting thing about Romulans is you may not know your enemy from your ally. It's why Stiles wonders if Spock is suddenly a Romulan. I mean, even having them look different, they seemed to use that idea many times even in TNG -- Romulans dressing up as Vulcans and vice versa.
I'm sure environment (hot climate, cold climate, etc.) does show deviations, and I think we've seen that in even humans.
I believe Berman didn't show us the difference between Vulcans and Romulans to prove the environmental impact, but because he thought the audience needed to know the difference between the two races.
I like some of the ideas in this thread to explain the ridges, like that they could have a hormonal link. I still have a hard time believing Romulans were given ridges for any other reason than the convenience of the viewers, though. I prefer thinking of them as looking alike enough that there is easily confusion between Vulcans and Romulans.
Vulcans and Romulans were supposedly separated by about 2000 years, but consider also that they live about twice as long as humans. This could translate to only 1000 years in human terms. Even when considering adaptations to different climates and living conditions, evolution doesn't happen that rapidly or drastically.
Vulcans and Romulans were supposedly separated by about 2000 years, but consider also that they live about twice as long as humans. This could translate to only 1000 years in human terms. Even when considering adaptations to different climates and living conditions, evolution doesn't happen that rapidly or drastically.
If I recall a late Season One TNG interview with Michael Westmore correctly, he took it upon himself to design a distinctive Romulan forehead for their re-introduction to ST in "The Neutral Zone", based on the knowledge that happily had the Klingons redesigned for ST:TMP. Gene Roddenberry and Rick Berman had to approve the concept, but obviously they liked how the design would photograph.
What was either not challenged, or was considered and they went ahead anyway, was the not-so-long-ago separation of Vulcans and Romulans.
The next time it was considered a problem to be discussed was Shatner not wanting to put ridges on Caithlyn Dar in ST V. Had she been given ridges, then we could have applied the same logic as TOS Klingons: we were supposed to assume that they always looked that way.
However, ST III had made a point of showing Vulcans with greater variation in characteristics. And look around Earth: I've seen plenty of people with very heavy foreheads.
The Mintakans (TNG) show us proto-Vulcans, and they are heavily ridged. I have no problem assuming that some separation between Vulcans and the future-Romulans started along more physical deliniations before their disagreements became more political.
My father suggested that perhaps it was something they ate....that it might have caused 'calcification'?
I agree that living in a colder, wetter climate than the Vulcans would have had some effect, such as smaller ears and a stockier build (to reduce heat-loss) which they are depicted as having. But the forehead ridges seem to serve no purpose. I could picture the Klingons having head-butting contests, but not Romulans.
I agree that living in a colder, wetter climate than the Vulcans would have had some effect, such as smaller ears and a stockier build (to reduce heat-loss) which they are depicted as having. But the forehead ridges seem to serve no purpose. I could picture the Klingons having head-butting contests, but not Romulans.
Of course, Spock seemed perfectly capable of blending in on Romulus without ridges in 'Unification.'
The easiest answer would probably be that ancient Vulcans (including those who fled to become Romulans and proto-Romulans) had ridges, and only recently did Vulcans and Romulans begin losing them. There may be various factors that would have caused the Vulcans to lose them entirely - such as faster brain development as a part of their mental disciplines, and an apparent increased telepathic potential associated with it - while the Romulans only 'recently' began to lose them as a part of natural development.
For all we know, some of those Romulan helmets and Vulcan helmets in TOS both hid ridges. We also conveniently happened to see many more Romulans with helmets than we did Vulcans with helmets.
The easiest answer would probably be that ancient Vulcans (including those who fled to become Romulans and proto-Romulans) had ridges, and only recently did Vulcans and Romulans begin losing them. There may be various factors that would have caused the Vulcans to lose them entirely - such as faster brain development as a part of their mental disciplines, and an apparent increased telepathic potential associated with it - while the Romulans only 'recently' began to lose them as a part of natural development.
For all we know, some of those Romulan helmets and Vulcan helmets in TOS both hid ridges. We also conveniently happened to see many more Romulans with helmets than we did Vulcans with helmets.
Indeed, they reused the same props, painted silver with a few changes in adornments, and it was those to which I referred. Apparently helmets were cheaper than prosthetic ears. But we saw only a few of those in the form of T'Pau's guards/enforcers for the koon-ut-kal-if-fee in 'Amok Time'(along with some rather intriguing vaguely anubis-like facemasks) whereas the Romulan helmets appeared in both 'Balance of Terror' and 'The Enterprise Incident.'
So like you say, they apparently share a common historical usage - perhaps ancient Vulcan soldiers all wore them, and once acted as guards for high officials such as T'Pau. The Vulcans apparently kept this only for such ceremonies, whereas the Romulans, being warriors, kept wearing them. Presumably the Romulans stopped using them sometime after TOS, since we didn't see any in the TNG era. Then again, maybe not. Maybe they were off-camera someplace.
Come to think of it, some of the Vulcans in TSFS wore hats that might have obscured any ridges they possessed... I don't remember if any ENT Vulcans wore hats, though. However, wasn't one of the Vulcan characters on there actually a Romulan spy, and therefore technically a Romulan without ridges?
I believe there was even some implication that Administrator V'las was in cahoots with the Romulans, so he could have possibly been a ridgeless Romulan. Also, there were apparently plans to make T'Pol's father a Romulan spy, and her half-Romulan. I wonder if he'd have ridges? Either way, T'Pol would be a ridgeless half-Romulan
ST-One
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I can't say the with-ridges/without-ridges thing bothers me much one way or another. As long as TPTB leave themselves some wiggle room that allows the rest of us to explain or ignore inconsistences, which they definitely have, it doesn't bother me. The only part that would bother me, to be honest, is the problem of how Spock manages to remain undected on Romulus, but I find I can be perfectly satisfied with the assumption that by the time of TNG, while most Romulans seem to have ridges, clearly not all of them do. Why, you say? Because if they did, Spock would have been caught toot sweet, that's why! Yes, I know that's a circular argument, but I don't care. 
You have to do that with Trek sometimes.
You have to do that with Trek sometimes.
Maybe they gotta hold of some Augment DNA??
Maybe it was the planet they settled on??
Maybe it was just Berman fucking up!!!
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