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Romulan Shenanigans

Realistically, if every nation in the AQ went to war every time another nation gave it sufficient cause, the Dominion War would never have occurred...they could have sat back and watched as the Alpha powers did their work for them.

Knowing when not to go to war is part of diplomacy.
 
And anyways, the Dominion weren't justified in their "Stay out of the Gamma Quadrant" thing to begin with. They didn't own the entire GQ, they didn't even control the area where the Wormhole led to. The Feds had every right to give them the finger and go around where the Dominion wasn't boss.

And the Dominion was planning on attacking anyways, even if they had stayed out of the GQ to begin with.

Exactly. I've read there were around 5 Y/L of travel area between Dom territory proper and the mouth of the "Anomaly"

To most fairly civilized peoples, this is explorable space. You don't see the Feds attacking in neutral space...hell, they can barely get a hard on to attack enemies that attack them in their own territory.
 
And also, the Dominion's first contact was not "This is our territory, please stay out or call first". It was "We killed everyone in the GQ from your side even when it was non-Dominion space."

Douchebags like that aren't reasonable.
 
Still, when all is said and done, the Romulans would have saved the lives of almost 1 billion Cardassians and millions of others, if they had succeeded in destroying the wormhole in Visionary

You would have thought that Sisko and co would have heeded the Romulan's warnings, by ...at the vary least...... creating the cloaked minefield which theyI'm sure they could programme to deactivate at any time, if they wanted to explore the Gamma Quadrant.

But, no that would have been too sneaky and Romulan-like.

Romulans, the only ones in the entire Quadrant who could actually think 1 step ahead with a minimum of bloodshed needed. (Tal Shiar/Obsidian Order/Section 31's solutions to the Dominion problem were morally indefensible given the absurdly simple minefield solution staring everyone in the face)
 
Hindsight is 20/20...if the Dominion War hadn't come to pass and the Feds had instead discovered the secrets of the Universe in the GQ, we'd be having a very different conversation.
 
But they could have. If they had created a cloaked minefiled, deactivated a portion for when they wanted to go exploring and then reactivated it when they came back.

Once the Feds discovered how dangerious the Dominion were, there is no excuse for not being prepared. In this case they could have had their cake (the minefield for protection) and eaten it (exploration of the gamma quadrant) at the same time.

The feds ended up not exploring all the Gamma Qaudrant AND having a devastating war. Terrible planning.

I mean look at Stargate Sg1. They put up an Iris at the end of the first epsiode. Yet they still went exploring through teh gate. They had no idea of what was all out there, but they took precautions when they knew that there were some dangerious opponents out there. Its exactly the same principle. Preventing an enemy poring through a chokepoint.
 
Of course, given that the Dominion likely had agents on the other end by then the odds are they'd have just found out how to deactivate the minefield themselves and done so whenever they wanted rendering it useless as a deterrent.

And a series about two sides constantly in a "Minefield" arms race of making a better minefield until the other side just finds a way to trash it, isn't dramatically viable for 5 seasons.
 
Perhaps they would have deactivated the minefield. The point isn't that the Dominion would have succeeded (and i'm sure they would have to, in order to have a Dominion war), the point is, that "in-universe", the absense of such measures makes our heros (and Federation/Bajor at large) look like having all the smarts of the average brain-dead lemming. As in none. They are idiots. Utterly incompetant fools.

And while the argument that such a minefiled solution would have made the series dramitically unviable is interesting and may well be true as there was something to be said for the Dominion always able to pop out of the wormhole without warning, it isn't relevant to the "in-universe" argument.
 
DS9 is something of a mirror image of SG-1 in this respect. In Stargate, Earth had the best gatekeeping systems in the galaxy: the most versatile barrier, the fastest dialer, a proper multilayer defense around the gate. But the resources Earth sent through the gate to the galaxy sucked; many an adventure would have been much simplified and Earth's triumph assured had O'Neill commanded an AFV with twelve people inside instead of an unprotected infantry team of four into the fray.

DS9 employed the familiar full might of the Federation during Gamma adventures, and when this fell short (such as when the Odyssey was lost, it was logical, dramatically satisfying, and didn't leave the heroes looking like idiots. But the same technological superiority was not applied on wormhole defense for some illogical and dramatically dissatisfactory reason.

As for the lack of comeuppance on Romulan shenanigans, let's remember that these are the same Romulans who could coerce the UFP into giving up cloaking tech. Obviously, they have got the Feds on the short and sensitives. And why wouldn't they? They are the leading operators of strategic weapons (cloaked fleets) in the region, and their backstory implies that their home turf lies really close to the soft heart of the Federation - probably closer than the Klingon or Cardassian borders, which are also uncomfortably close to Earth...

I could easily see the UFP holding back on armed response, not because they lack the military power or the will, but because the Romulans have the drop on them, and are seen as lunatic enough to use it. Romulans are the North Koreans of Trek in so many respects - it's only fitting to think that they, too, happen to have a shitload of weapons trained at the UFP equivalent of Seoul at point blank range.

Timo Saloniemi
 
DS9 is something of a mirror image of SG-1 in this respect. In Stargate, Earth had the best gatekeeping systems in the galaxy: the most versatile barrier, the fastest dialer, a proper multilayer defense around the gate. But the resources Earth sent through the gate to the galaxy sucked; many an adventure would have been much simplified and Earth's triumph assured had O'Neill commanded an AFV with twelve people inside instead of an unprotected infantry team of four into the fray.

DS9 employed the familiar full might of the Federation during Gamma adventures, and when this fell short (such as when the Odyssey was lost, it was logical, dramatically satisfying, and didn't leave the heroes looking like idiots. But the same technological superiority was not applied on wormhole defense for some illogical and dramatically dissatisfactory reason.

As for the lack of comeuppance on Romulan shenanigans, let's remember that these are the same Romulans who could coerce the UFP into giving up cloaking tech. Obviously, they have got the Feds on the short and sensitives. And why wouldn't they? They are the leading operators of strategic weapons (cloaked fleets) in the region, and their backstory implies that their home turf lies really close to the soft heart of the Federation - probably closer than the Klingon or Cardassian borders, which are also uncomfortably close to Earth...

I could easily see the UFP holding back on armed response, not because they lack the military power or the will, but because the Romulans have the drop on them, and are seen as lunatic enough to use it. Romulans are the North Koreans of Trek in so many respects - it's only fitting to think that they, too, happen to have a shitload of weapons trained at the UFP equivalent of Seoul at point blank range.

Timo Saloniemi
Interesting. Still, if one doesn't confront the bully; the bullying will continue.
 
But that doesn't mean that there would automatically exist the option of confronting the bully.

That is, unless suicide is considered an option.

Timo Saloniemi
 
But that doesn't mean that there would automatically exist the option of confronting the bully.

That is, unless suicide is considered an option.

Timo Saloniemi

Are you implying the Feds can't handle the Romulans
 
Is there evidence to suggest they can?

There was already one Romulan War, I don't think anyone was ultimately eager to have another.
 
The Romulans are supposed to be at a level of power equal to the Klingons, meaning that there is a possibility that war with the Feds wouldn't exactly be an overwhelming success.

In that light, the Treaty of Algeron banning Fed Cloaks makes sense. I mean, given the choice of either immediately going to war with the Romulans which would likely cost billions, create a power vacuum where the Romulans once were (if the Feds could even conquer them outright instead of just force them to accept a smaller area of space) and the massive damage this would do to the Federation

OR

Signing a treaty that kept the Feds from developing cloaks (but not superior sensors to detect cloaks)

Which is the better choice?
 
Of course, given that the Dominion likely had agents on the other end by then the odds are they'd have just found out how to deactivate the minefield themselves and done so whenever they wanted rendering it useless as a deterrent.
That, and something else to consider.

We never even saw ALL of the full military might of the Dominion. The show always implied that if we HAD seen said full might, they still might have been a match for the combined forces of the Feds, Romulans, and Klingons. The war proper didn't start until the very end of season 5; provoking the Dominion with something like a cloaked minefield was best put off until it was absolutely necessary, when a war seemed completely unavoidable (and, as Sisko put it, had become their "only hope", meaning that at that point, it was clear that a full-on Dominion invasion was looming). Before that point, they probably held out some small hope that a full-scale conflict could yet be avoided. That hope may have been unrealistic, but having either the Klingons or Romulans on board as a military ally for any extended length of time (let alone both at the same time) was not something they could count on maintaining, and the Feds knew that on their own, one military vs. another, they would lose against the Dominion. So they put off a war as long as they could.

Don't forget, also, that the Feds like to avoid war, in general, as much as possible. Even when faced with a power whom they could comfortably beat down in a full-scale conflict, they will take any reasonable diplomatic avenue if they can, preferring to avoid the loss of life that would occur in a war, even if the majority of those lost lives are not Federation lives. This would be true with regard to both the Dominion and the Romulans. Frankly, I thought they took it too far at times; the Romulans gave them more than just a bloody nose at times, with little real response, but as others have pointed out, some of these incidents went down without any real proof of Romulan aggression, so it could have been politically murky for the Feds to retaliate for them.
And a series about two sides constantly in a "Minefield" arms race of making a better minefield until the other side just finds a way to trash it, isn't dramatically viable for 5 seasons.
Perhaps they would have deactivated the minefield. The point isn't that the Dominion would have succeeded (and i'm sure they would have to, in order to have a Dominion war), the point is, that "in-universe", the absense of such measures makes our heros (and Federation/Bajor at large) look like having all the smarts of the average brain-dead lemming. As in none. They are idiots. Utterly incompetant fools.

And while the argument that such a minefiled solution would have made the series dramitically unviable is interesting and may well be true as there was something to be said for the Dominion always able to pop out of the wormhole without warning, it isn't relevant to the "in-universe" argument.
To be honest, I've never understood this mentatily, of actually concluding that what I bolded is true in-universe. Out-of-universe elements - writer intent, writer mistakes, budget limitations, etc. - MUST be considered, even in an in-universe argument. The reason is because the show ISN'T real. It's not a documentary or historical fiction, it's entirely 100% made-up.

When the show presents us with the notion that Data is leagues more advanced than any real computer system, then some dialog has him getting some intermediate math wrong, we have two choices:
A) acknowledge that the show isn't real, that a writer made an error and no one caught it, and say "If it were 'real', Data would have gotten that right, because he's freakin' Data."
B) say "writing goofs have no bearing on in-universe events. What 'really' happened in-universe is that the super advanced android got that math problem wrong, and none of the trained Starfleet officers participating in the conversation caught it."

Going with B) (which, in the context of this minefield/military competance issue, would mean saying "The characters in-universe are idiots") would mean I can't take the show seriously anymore. I don't want to watch a show about idiots. I'd rather assume that there are other reasons in-universe that we may not be aware of for why they didn't put up a minefield.
And here's another thought: Perhaps the technology to create self-replicating mines wasn't viable until "Call to Arms". Don't forget that it was Rom who came up with the idea, in a flash of random insight; this (and Dax's initial "wat?" reaction) suggest that the tech involved may have been experimental or obscure. And given the size of the wormhole, and the complexities introduced by the fact that it was a wormhole, not just a planet or something else mundane, that they were trying to mine, it was quite a challenge: O'Brien and Dax went through several other ideas in that scene before Rom suggested self-replication, and they shot each idea down for one reason or another. So before this, any minefield they attempted to put up may have done literally nothing except aggravate the Dominion.
Is there evidence to suggest they can?

There was already one Romulan War, I don't think anyone was ultimately eager to have another.
From TNG's "The Defector", Admiral Haden to Picard re: Romulans:
"No one here wants a war, Captain. But we are prepared to take them on if that is what they want."

That doesn't mean that the Feds would necessarily win an all-out war with them, but this statement would not have been worded that way, and delivered with that level of calm confidence, if they weren't at least a good match against them overall.
 
Of course, given that the Dominion likely had agents on the other end by then the odds are they'd have just found out how to deactivate the minefield themselves and done so whenever they wanted rendering it useless as a deterrent.
That, and something else to consider.

We never even saw ALL of the full military might of the Dominion. The show always implied that if we HAD seen said full might, they still might have been a match for the combined forces of the Feds, Romulans, and Klingons. The war proper didn't start until the very end of season 5; provoking the Dominion with something like a cloaked minefield was best put off until it was absolutely necessary, when a war seemed completely unavoidable (and, as Sisko put it, had become their "only hope", meaning that at that point, it was clear that a full-on Dominion invasion was looming). Before that point, they probably held out some small hope that a full-scale conflict could yet be avoided. That hope may have been unrealistic, but having either the Klingons or Romulans on board as a military ally for any extended length of time (let alone both at the same time) was not something they could count on maintaining, and the Feds knew that on their own, one military vs. another, they would lose against the Dominion. So they put off a war as long as they could.

Don't forget, also, that the Feds like to avoid war, in general, as much as possible. Even when faced with a power whom they could comfortably beat down in a full-scale conflict, they will take any reasonable diplomatic avenue if they can, preferring to avoid the loss of life that would occur in a war, even if the majority of those lost lives are not Federation lives. This would be true with regard to both the Dominion and the Romulans. Frankly, I thought they took it too far at times; the Romulans gave them more than just a bloody nose at times, with little real response, but as others have pointed out, some of these incidents went down without any real proof of Romulan aggression, so it could have been politically murky for the Feds to retaliate for them.
And a series about two sides constantly in a "Minefield" arms race of making a better minefield until the other side just finds a way to trash it, isn't dramatically viable for 5 seasons.
Perhaps they would have deactivated the minefield. The point isn't that the Dominion would have succeeded (and i'm sure they would have to, in order to have a Dominion war), the point is, that "in-universe", the absense of such measures makes our heros (and Federation/Bajor at large) look like having all the smarts of the average brain-dead lemming. As in none. They are idiots. Utterly incompetant fools.

And while the argument that such a minefiled solution would have made the series dramitically unviable is interesting and may well be true as there was something to be said for the Dominion always able to pop out of the wormhole without warning, it isn't relevant to the "in-universe" argument.
To be honest, I've never understood this mentatily, of actually concluding that what I bolded is true in-universe. Out-of-universe elements - writer intent, writer mistakes, budget limitations, etc. - MUST be considered, even in an in-universe argument. The reason is because the show ISN'T real. It's not a documentary or historical fiction, it's entirely 100% made-up.

When the show presents us with the notion that Data is leagues more advanced than any real computer system, then some dialog has him getting some intermediate math wrong, we have two choices:
A) acknowledge that the show isn't real, that a writer made an error and no one caught it, and say "If it were 'real', Data would have gotten that right, because he's freakin' Data."
B) say "writing goofs have no bearing on in-universe events. What 'really' happened in-universe is that the super advanced android got that math problem wrong, and none of the trained Starfleet officers participating in the conversation caught it."

Going with B) (which, in the context of this minefield/military competance issue, would mean saying "The characters in-universe are idiots") would mean I can't take the show seriously anymore. I don't want to watch a show about idiots. I'd rather assume that there are other reasons in-universe that we may not be aware of for why they didn't put up a minefield.
And here's another thought: Perhaps the technology to create self-replicating mines wasn't viable until "Call to Arms". Don't forget that it was Rom who came up with the idea, in a flash of random insight; this (and Dax's initial "wat?" reaction) suggest that the tech involved may have been experimental or obscure. And given the size of the wormhole, and the complexities introduced by the fact that it was a wormhole, not just a planet or something else mundane, that they were trying to mine, it was quite a challenge: O'Brien and Dax went through several other ideas in that scene before Rom suggested self-replication, and they shot each idea down for one reason or another. So before this, any minefield they attempted to put up may have done literally nothing except aggravate the Dominion.
Is there evidence to suggest they can?

There was already one Romulan War, I don't think anyone was ultimately eager to have another.
From TNG's "The Defector", Admiral Haden to Picard re: Romulans:
"No one here wants a war, Captain. But we are prepared to take them on if that is what they want."

That doesn't mean that the Feds would necessarily win an all-out war with them, but this statement would not have been worded that way, and delivered with that level of calm confidence, if they weren't at least a good match against them overall.
Warbirds have never been that impressive in battle. Unless you count the Scimitar
 
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