Romulan Shenanigans

[Photon]

in both TNG (Defector to name one of many) and and DS9 (Visionary) were enough to warrant at least a huge counter strike by the Feds and (perhaps) the Klingons and at most, a declaration of war.

I love the Romulans for all their deceptive, mischief, but these guys needed their collective clocks cleaned by an armada.

I do feel that Sisko got a certain amount of vengance by dragging them into the war by deception, but still....are the Feds afraid of the Romulans?

 

[JustKate]

I can't claim to have any real evidence for this, but it just always seemed to me that the Federation was reluctant to engage in open war with the Romulans because it saw such potential in the Romulans to be a valuable ally. I'm not putting this well, I know, but it's as though the Feds really thought that they were this ][ close to reaching a meaningful agreement with the Rommies. Not sure why, because as you point out, Photon, the Romulans were so wonderfully sneaky - and I love 'em that way - but that's just how it's always seemed to me.

 

[DieselFreak]

"It's better to stand at the right hand of the devil than in his path." I agree with Kreepy, even if what I said isn't what she meant.

 

[sonak]

Though this is a good point, we see this often in Trek-actions by opposing governments against the Federation that would be more than enough for a declaration of war or lesser retaliation-think of the Cardassians' actions in "The Wounded," "Ensign Ro," "Chain of Command," or The Klingons' actions in Star Trek III. I guess the Federation has enough of a security advantage to not feel the need to respond in certain cases-or this is to show viewers how "peace-loving" the UFP is or something.

 

[Smellincoffee]

Mysterious enemies can be the most intimidating kind; there's no telling what they have up their sleeves.

 

[Gul Re'jal]

think of the Cardassians' actions in "The Wounded,"

If anyone had a reason to declare was it was the Cardassians, not the Federation. They were attacked by a rogue Federation captain, who entered their territory and was attacking every Cardassian ship he encountered. The Cardassians were very lenient NOT declaring a war after that.

 

[Anwar]

And anyways, the Romulans are the Federation's oldest enemy. In fact they have been their enemy since BEFORE the Federation existed. They know full well how powerful an enemy they are, and that any major war with them would result in major damage to the Federation population and infrastructure. It's better to keep them in a semi-hostile stance rather than go into a major war that may not even go fully in the Federation's favor.

 

[sonak]

think of the Cardassians' actions in "The Wounded,"

If anyone had a reason to declare was it was the Cardassians, not the Federation. They were attacked by a rogue Federation captain, who entered their territory and was attacking every Cardassian ship he encountered. The Cardassians were very lenient NOT declaring a war after that.

Er, did you watch the end of the episode? The Cardassians were re-arming in violation of the treaty, and Picard even says so to the Gul -he admits that if he'd investigated the outpost like Maxwell wanted , "they would not have been having that pleasant conversation." And that "they would be watching."

Maxwell may have been acting as a rogue captain, but that was irrelevant as to the the Cardassians' treaty violations.

 

[Gul Re'jal]

Oh, of course it was irrelevant. He had the right to attack a few ships, destroy them and kill all those Cardassians. They are deserved to die, because one Federation captain had some suspicions.

For whole episode Picard patronises Macet, giving him a speech "we're so saint, you're so evil" at the end. If Cardassians were rearming and violating the treaty - investigate and present proofs in their faces. What exactly makes it right to protect one captain, who violates law of both governments (Fed and Cardie)? Sorry, but this is some kind of a double standard. The Federation had only suspicions and treated one Gul with good intentions like trash, the Cardassians had a captain, who flew around one sector, attacking everything on his way and didn't accept the invitation to a war.
I find a rogue captain very relevant. The Cardassians' reaction to this incident tells me something about the Cardassians (and the Federation).

The first paragraph is an irony, if anyone doubts.

 

[sonak]

you're comparing the actions of a rogue captain who was NOT acting on behalf of the Federation to the actions of the Cardassian government itself, which was re-arming in defiance of the treaty, and disguising their re-arming as scientific research, DELIBERATELY DECEIVING the Federation.


These are not equivalent comparisons.

 

[Anwar]

And the reason Picard didn't investigate Maxwell's claims was because he was given a direct order NOT to let things devolve back into war.

 

[Thor Damar]

I think the point is that Maxwell's actions could have provided a justification for the Central Command to go to war, never mind the fact that he attacked an unarmed cargo ship and scientific station. Of course it turns out that the Cardassians were naturally stockpiling weapons and ships to go to war.
(Which seems like it wouldn't be much of a threat considering how weak the warships of the Grand Union Fleet are with regards to Starfleet and how easily the Cardassians are outwitted throughout. Seriously, why make your designated Villains such a joke? Fortunately they got better...).

Still, Sonak is right in arguing that the actions of the Cardassian Empire were more criminal than Maxwell as he caused hundreds of deaths whereas the war would have cost thousands if not millions not to mention Cardassia losing said war. Bloody stupid sons of Guls...

As for the several dozen near wars with the RSE, I assume that the UFP was wary of the huge casualties resulting in such a conflict plus the aftermath possibly leading to the collapse of the Empire, a weakened Federation and the chaos that would ensure. (no doubt helped along by the Tholians, Breen and the Cardassians. Not to mention the Klingon Empire).
Too much of a risk for the people of the UFP even if it did meant dismantling a oppressive empire.

Lets not forget the brief but bloody Klingon Federation War of 2372 as well.

 

[indolover]

The Wounded was not a wholly black and white situation.

Ben Maxwell's actions were wrong, but so were the Cardassians'. In a way, Maxwell did the right thing (exposing Cardassian non-compliance to the treaty) for the wrong reason. Starfleet didn't want to pressure them since they were not ready for a sustained conflict, as the Admiral told Picard. So they had little choice but to abide by it at that time.

As for the Romulans, well they're a different species, with different ways/modes of thinking. Maybe the reason they've been more or less perpetual Federation enemies is because they've never truly forgiven Earth (whilst not the Federation of course, but a founding member) for the defeat in the Earth-Romulan War. It's not like the Klingons, who can forgive a former enemy if they prove themselves to be honourable. Romulans probably may not believe in alliances as such, or if they do as something for their own ends and not a matter of mutual co-operation.

I wonder about the Defector though. Even if Picard and Worf had not arranged for the Klingon escort/reinforcements, and Tomalok had destroyed the Enterprise, the alliance between the Federation and Klingons still stood, so the Romulans had to deal with both Klingon and Federation forces (and also no more cloaking device advantage). Did the Preator or Pro-Consul or whoever consider that when plotting to expose Jarok?

 

[sonak]

you're both right of course. And my point wasn't to comment on the issue of whether or not the UFP SHOULD have gone to war due to Cardassian treaty violations, merely that they would have the legal cause to do so if they chose to.

(and if you're afraid of a sustained war with an opponent,you'd think the last thing you'd want to do is LET THEM RE-ARM TO THE TEETH to make a potential war worse).



So to tie this with the theme of the thread-the Federation doesn't have to let every provocation or legal cause for a war turn into a war. They analyze the overall strategic situation and see if the cost would be too high and would end up with them in a worse position in relation to their opponents.

 

[Thestral]

Romulan shenanigans you say?

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvY2CAnEd-o[/yt]

 

[Temis the Vorta]

The Feds should be afraid of the Rommies, who are about 10x smarter than the average hew-mon. But Visionary isn't so outrageous when you consider how much risk the Feds were placing the whole quadrant in, by leaving the wormhole open, yet refusing to heed Dominion warnings to stay the frak out of the GQ and instead acting like they had some God-given right to explore other people's territory, even when those people interpreted it as trespassing and possessed large guns and a nasty attitude. What did the Feds think was going to happen? Sheesh!

The Rommies realized that Fed bungling was going to lead to war, in which they would inevitably be embroiled, so they did the only reasonable thing they could, to protect themselves - try to blow the frakkin thing up! The Feds could have saved everyone a lot of grief by blowing the wormhole up themselves or at the very very least, preventing anyone from travelleing thru it to the GQ side. That war didn't have to happen.

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

Hence, "Visionary" remains ridiculous, albeit for a polar opposite reason.

 

[TiberiusMaximus]

The Feds should be afraid of the Rommies, who are about 10x smarter than the average hew-mon. But Visionary isn't so outrageous when you consider how much risk the Feds were placing the whole quadrant in, by leaving the wormhole open, yet refusing to heed Dominion warnings to stay the frak out of the GQ and instead acting like they had some God-given right to explore other people's territory, even when those people interpreted it as trespassing and possessed large guns and a nasty attitude. What did the Feds think was going to happen? Sheesh!

The Rommies realized that Fed bungling was going to lead to war, in which they would inevitably be embroiled, so they did the only reasonable thing they could, to protect themselves - try to blow the frakkin thing up! The Feds could have saved everyone a lot of grief by blowing the wormhole up themselves or at the very very least, preventing anyone from travelleing thru it to the GQ side. That war didn't have to happen.

Bunch of arrogant, selfish, entitled morons. That's why Romulans are better. Humans have no 'code' and neither does the Federation. They have rules. Klingons have their honor, Romulans have their mnhei'sae, but all the Feds have is "do whatever you want, everybody...but don't save primitive planets from natural disasters. Trust us, it's better this way." Sheesh. The Romulans may tend to be murderous, backstabbing, conniving, devious, underhanded, and manipulative, but at least they're honest about it.

 

[Anwar]

And anyways, the Dominion weren't justified in their "Stay out of the Gamma Quadrant" thing to begin with. They didn't own the entire GQ, they didn't even control the area where the Wormhole led to. The Feds had every right to give them the finger and go around where the Dominion wasn't boss.

And the Dominion was planning on attacking anyways, even if they had stayed out of the GQ to begin with.

 

[Harry Palmer]

Oh, of course it was irrelevant. He had the right to attack a few ships, destroy them and kill all those Cardassians. They are deserved to die, because one Federation captain had some suspicions.

I'm glad they're dead and I hope they burn in hell.

The Federation had only suspicions and treated one Gul with good intentions like trash, the Cardassians had a captain, who flew around one sector, attacking everything on his way and didn't accept the invitation to a war.

They weren't ready for a war with the Federation. Simple as that. Now by the time of the events in Chain of Command on the other hand...