• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Roddenberry and the Biblical Allusions in TOS.

McCoy said "Lord forgive me" in the first episode broadcast. Said "dear Lord" in TWOK.

Either he was talking about Jack Lord or he was a man of some faith.

Not necessarily. I'm a nonbeliever, but I use oaths like "Oh my God" or "Damn it" because they're part of the English language. People use lots of words metaphorically, for the sake of their emotional impact, not because we believe them literally.

But yes, of course lots of characters in TOS used religiously based oaths like "Dear Lord" and "What in Heaven" and "What the Devil," and they quoted the Bible on multiple occasions, and they did implicitly believe in God. That is axiomatic. The show was made for an audience that was presumed to be Christian, it was subject to censor guidelines that prohibited any whiff of atheism, so that's the way it was written.
 
So? One year when I was working in musical theatre, there were FIVE people with the same name (me, the stage manager, one of the stage hands, and two dancers). I have a very common first name, at least for my generation and the one following.
4b438620935c013aa176005056a9545dw

14ca6d406cc6013a97a6005056a9545dw
 
Not necessarily. I'm a nonbeliever, but I use oaths like "Oh my God" or "Damn it" because they're part of the English language. People use lots of words metaphorically, for the sake of their emotional impact, not because we believe them literally.

"Lord forgive me" is too specific and one I find hard to accept someone who isn't religious would spout off. A non believer wouldn't default to asking God for forgiveness, even metaphorically. "God damn it," "Oh my god" sure, those are expressions. Even my devout atheist sister uses them. If I heard an atheist say "Lord forgive me" in an unironic fashion, I'd spit out whatever I was drinking. It's implicit that this person is asking forgiveness from a higher power.

And being 60's TV, I highly doubt they were doing a metaphorical expression for us to ponder.
 
McCoy said "Lord forgive me" in the first episode broadcast. Said "dear Lord" in TWOK.

Either he was talking about Jack Lord or he was a man of some faith.

.

gotta be jack lord who, after all, almost sat in the center seat…. Book ‘em, Danno.
 
"Lord forgive me" is too specific and one I find hard to accept someone who isn't religious would spout off. A non believer wouldn't default to asking God for forgiveness, even metaphorically. "God damn it," "Oh my god" sure, those are expressions. Even my devout atheist sister uses them. If I heard an atheist say "Lord forgive me" in an unironic fashion, I'd spit out whatever I was drinking. It's implicit that this person is asking forgiveness from a higher power.

Which could still just be a metaphor for their own sense of doing something they feel is hard to forgive. It doesn't mean they're literally asking someone for forgiveness, it just means they're aware of their own sense of guilt or remorse at having to do it.

I mean, what about "God forbid?" Taken literally, that's a plea to God to prevent something from happening, yet people (myself included) use it metaphorically all the time. I don't see how a plea for forgiveness is any different. For that matter even "God damn X" is, taken literally, an invocation to God to condemn X to Hell. But in practice, all these "appeals to God" are just rhetorical devices to convey the speaker's own feelings.

After all, it's a mistake to assume that language is exclusively about the speaker's mental state. That's only one side of the equation. The purpose of communication is to convey ideas to listeners, so what matters is the understanding you want to convey to others. If I use conventional phrases rooted in religion, it's not because I believe in the religion, it's because they're the phrases that I know will convey the desired meaning to my listeners. So I might very well say "God forgive me" if I needed to express my sense of guilt or remorse to other people to whom the phrase would carry meaning.


And being 60's TV, I highly doubt they were doing a metaphorical expression for us to ponder.

Sure, in that specific case, as I've been saying, the characters' religious belief was implicit. I'm just saying that more generally, I don't agree that the use of such phrases rules out the possibility of atheism. It's a logical fallacy to equate a general argument with a specific one. Just because something is true in the specific case doesn't make it valid to say it's true in every case.
 
The Genesis device had nothing to do with the reality of Spock's Katra, or the effectiveness of the re-fusion ceremony / ability, which brought Spock back. Without it, he was some empty vessel reacting with certain instincts, but one with no soul, memory and thought--central components of a living being.
It's entry level, Science Fiction 101 stuff.
 
"Lord forgive me" is too specific and one I find hard to accept someone who isn't religious would spout off. A non believer wouldn't default to asking God for forgiveness, even metaphorically. "God damn it," "Oh my god" sure, those are expressions. Even my devout atheist sister uses them. If I heard an atheist say "Lord forgive me" in an unironic fashion, I'd spit out whatever I was drinking. It's implicit that this person is asking forgiveness from a higher power.

Obviously, but certain atheists continue to lose their grip on the balance beams in the Denial Olympics trying to spin "Lord, forgive me" into some watered-down expression, when--as you so accurately observe--"Lord, forgive me" is a direct plea to the Lord to forgive what the person knows to be some sinful / percieved unforgivable act. McCoy is a believer and considered killing the form of, or memory of Nancy as an unforgivable act against God. A direct prayer or plea comes from belief, which has no similarities to some culturally appropriated misuse of "God".

And being 60's TV, I highly doubt they were doing a metaphorical expression for us to ponder.

No, they--meaning Roddenberry, Desilu or NBC--were not, and there's no historical evidence to suggest that was the case.

I also find the "network pushed region on TV series" cry predictably revisionist at best, if one considers a network such as NBC during the 1960s.One must ask why would NBC allegedly "push" religion on a moderate-to-ultimately low rated series such as TOS--one with far less visibility, and attractiveness to sponsors (all important in keeping a series on-air and profitable), when they did not do that with an arguably more popular series like I Dream of Jeannie, (enjoying a longer run than TOS from 1965-70), yet the show set in familiar 1960's America--key for the impression it set as a mirror of then-familiar culture, (unlike a sci-fi series set in the far future) was unabashedly selling the idea of magic, Djinns, genies, and other supernatural elements as a fact of the series' in-universe reality. The series never recognized or acknowledged faith or religious bodies (particularly Christianity) at all as a character's personal belief, or as a "counter" to the magical goings-on of the series.

If "pushing" or "forcing" religion was the goal of a network, one would logically conclude that the alleged "push" would begin on a series that was set in the era in which it was produced (again, the all-important impression that set for network executives and the American TV viewer) with its essence completely rooted in / selling the "reality" of the supernatural with no references to real world religion or character faith, instead of trying to "force" religious acknowledgement with a few references in some sci-fi series set in a period so far removed their own. It did not happen in the case of the Screen Gems series--arguably due to the network not having an official (or unwritten) policy of forcing faith/religion on its programs.
 
Last edited:
I also find the "network pushed region on TV series" cry

If "pushing" or "forcing" religion was the goal of a network, one would logically conclude that the alleged "push" would begin on a series that was set in the era in which it was produced

Network push religion? No. Push back against blasphemy? Yes. So, for example, in TOS "Who Mourns for Adonais" the network did not approve of Kirk's line "Mankind has no need for gods" to end there, but required or requested it to be softened and not blasphemous. So, "We find the one quite adequate" was added.

During this time there was nothing on television that was blatantly anti-christian. There was nothing pro any other religion (save Old Testament Judaism) and nothing pro Atheist. Likewise, belly buttons could not be shown on TV, and at least 5 to 10 years earlier the word "pregnant" could not be said, not could a man and woman be depicted sharing the same bed.
 
I believe Gomez and Morticia Addams were the first American TV couple shown sleeping in the same bed.

I thought it was Lilly and Herman Munster.

Regardl3, it still wasn't a common sight on TV, not if the Brady Bunch thought they were among the first.
 
Which was why Roddenberry gave Mariette Hartley's mutant character in Genesis II a second bellybutton -- to make up for lost time.
That was another bit of G.R.'s blarney, albeit slightly tongue-in-cheek. In fact, NBC lifted the navel ban starting with Trek's second season. We saw women's belly buttons in "Mirror, Mirror," "A Private Little War," and "The Cloud Minders."

It was Mary Kay and Johnny. Who? See the Broadcast section... Mary Kay and Johnny - Wikipedia
An early sitcom so obscure even I had never heard of it! Unfortunately only a single episode is known to survive.
 
On the subject of religious-sounding idioms, I really have to push back against the notion that common expressions like "God forbid!" or "Heaven help us!" are evidence of sincere religious beliefs on the part of the speaker. At this point, they're just common colloquial expressions -- and certainly that's how I use them in dialogue and in real life.

This doesn't mean that someone can't mean them literally in certain contexts, but that's far from self-evident.

Look, I'm about as atheistic as they come, but I'm not going to avoid having Kirk or whoever using such expressions as a matter of principle:

"Heaven help us if the Klingons get hold of that doomsday device."

"God forbid that a diplomatic conference go off with a snag."

"Good Lord! Look at the size of that ship!"

To my mind, that's not making a religious statement, one way or another. That's just how people talk in real life.
 
On the subject of religious-sounding idioms, I really have to push back against the notion that common expressions like "God forbid!" or "Heaven help us!" are evidence of sincere religious beliefs on the part of the speaker. At this point, they're just common colloquial expressions -- and certainly that's how I use them in dialogue and in real life.

This doesn't mean that someone can't mean them literally in certain contexts, but that's far from self-evident.

Look, I'm about as atheistic as they come, but I'm not going to avoid having Kirk or whoever using such expressions as a matter of principle:

"Heaven help us if the Klingons get hold of that doomsday device."

"God forbid that a diplomatic conference go off with a snag."

"Good Lord! Look at the size of that ship!"

To my mind, that's not making a religious statement, one way or another. That's just how people talk in real life.

I say “Good Lord” on a semi-regular basis.

I also like “Merciful Poseidon!” but I don’t believe in him either.
 
In Vonda MacIntyre's Trek books characters exclaim "gods...", instead of "God...". Apparently this is to show how totally distanced 23rd century society is from any current western-style theistic belief.
 
"Saints of Imperfection".

Pike mentioned attending church with his cousin.
Ah, Not sure one can gain much from that line. I've been to church with friends and relatives many times. And I'm not a believer. The line also sounds more like a dig or quip rather than a statement of fact about what Pike or even the cousin believes.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top