Roddenberry and the Biblical Allusions in TOS.

[Greg Cox]

How many atheists ask God for forgiveness?

"God forgive us" can be just a colorful expression, used for emphasis or added drama or melodrama. Like "God help us all" in a perilous moment.

Just this morning my girlfriend blurted out "Thank you, Baby Jesus!" when she got some good news but she was just being funny, not devout. For better or for worse, such colorful expressions are part of our common vocabulary and are sometimes even used for humorous effect:

"As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly."

 

[Christopher]

How many atheists ask God for forgiveness?

Plenty, if they're using it because it's a common expression in their culture and they grew up hearing it used that way. I already addressed this back in post #185.

After all, if atheists don't believe God is anything more than a human-invented metaphor, why wouldn't we invoke God metaphorically? Your assumption is self-contradictory. The only people who'd take "May God forgive me" literally enough to be that selective about its use are the people who do believe in God.

I mean, really, speaking as an atheist, it makes perfect sense to me -- if God is a construct invented by the human community to represent their moral standards, then "May God forgive me" can be taken as a way of hoping that other people can forgive one's actions, or at least that one can find a way to forgive oneself.

Or, more simply, "God" is merely a verbal intensifier, a sound English speakers utter when they feel something strongly, the same as any other oath. I often find myself saying "God" for exactly that reason -- not because I believe, but because I'm just conditioned by my culture and language to use the word to embody strong feeling. So "May God forgive me" is something you'd say if you strongly feel the need for forgiveness.

Sure, I understand the examples given above in regards saying God forbid, go to Hell, she's an angel, you're a saint, bless you, etc... I've never heard of forgiveness being uttered as a colloquial expression.

If you'll forgive me for saying so, I think you're overlooking at least one common example...

 

[Nerys Myk]

Phrases slip into people's vernacular all of the time. They pick them up from relatives, friends, the media, and other sources. Not sure why religious phrases need to be treated as a special thing.

 

[Greg Cox]

It occurs to me that there's also an echo effect where such expressions get reinforced and perpetuated by their use in pop culture, so that the question arises whether someone is actually expressing a religious sentiment -- or just repeating a phrase they've often heard in movies and TV shows.

"As God is my witness, I'll never be hungry again!" Etc.

Lord knows (there's another one!) I've been known to make "Nearer My God to Thee" jokes, referencing the sinking of the Titanic.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I like to play with phrases on occasion. Came up with "Surly Teenaged Jesus".

 

[Ssosmcin]

I have said pretty much all I'm gonna on this other than, in the moment, McCoy was obviously not blurting out "Lord forgive me" in an ironic or humorous fashion or as a general exclamation. It was a network TV series in the 60's. Networks took their religious references seriously and likely wouldn't have permitted a casual reference. It had to be delivered a certain way. We didn't even get a lot of "oh my God's" on the show. And it wasn't colorful metaphor like Zefram Cochran's "Sweet Jesus!" McCoy was at his lowest point, about to take sentient life, one that looked like his old love, and Kelley's delivery tells us all we need to know. He meant it. Really, it's just as okay for McCoy to believe in God, as it is for Roddenberry to NOT. Just so long as Bones isn't going cabin to cabin with pamphlets, who cares?

Anyway, I'm out. Play on folks.

 

[Poltargyst]

Yet, the entire point of late 2nd season's "Bread and Circuses"--from Septimus and Flavius speaking of their belief (and in contrast to the false god-worshiping Romans) to the episode's coda with Uhura's revelation about the Son, that episode appeared to have been created with a very pointed message in mind. Episode writers Coon and Roddenberry did not need to adapt / write such a story at all (from Kneubuhl's original story), nor were they forced to by NBC. Further, if Gene "He was always a hardcore atheist!!!" Roddenberry had issues with a story that openly acknowledges Jesus's identity and His impact, one of his many changes to the script while it was shot probably would have removed or watered down the unambiguous name / legacy drop. Roddenberry could think on his feet, so he could have substituted Jesus with anyone (i.e., create a character for his fictional Roman planet), but the script, final cut and aired episode remained unchanged.

But every time, and I mean EVERY time we see a godlike being throughout Star Trek it is always some alien tyrant that needs to be overthown so that the people can be free and make the progress in making their lives better as they are supposed to. It certainly looks like a very consistent message from GR that belief in God or gods enslaves people and keeps them from living their best lives.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

Couldn't that just as easily point to there being many deceivers who claim to be God, but are not, and the danger of falling under the spell of a counterfeit? (Implying there is a genuine article.)

 

[Poltargyst]

Couldn't that just as easily point to there being many deceivers who claim to be God, but are not, and the danger of falling under the spell of a counterfeit? (Implying there is a genuine article.)

When the Enterprise kills Vaal, there is no other god that the people turn to to lead them. Kirk's speech is all about how they're going to be able to take care of themselves and do things for themselves now.

(Although it occurs to me their lives were much better serving Vaal than what they are about to face, but that's neither here nor there.)

 

[Christopher]

McCoy was obviously not blurting out "Lord forgive me" in an ironic or humorous fashion or as a general exclamation.

I repeat yet again: It is certainly true that McCoy probably didn't mean it that way. It is not, however, valid to assert that nobody could possibly mean it that way. General and specific argument are two separate things.

But every time, and I mean EVERY time we see a godlike being throughout Star Trek it is always some alien tyrant that needs to be overthown so that the people can be free and make the progress in making their lives better as they are supposed to. It certainly looks like a very consistent message from GR that belief in God or gods enslaves people and keeps them from living their best lives.

No, it's just a standard adventure-story plot beat. Don't attribute everything in TOS to "GR" -- the show was much more freelancer-driven than modern shows. A lot of its writers were just general TV writers, and they recycled a lot of standard adventure tropes superficially dressed up with sci-fi trappings. A lot of TOS's aliens perpetuated the stock Orientalist or tribal stereotypes in Western fiction, including the recurring trope of primitive tribes that worshipped false idols.

Remember, a lot of the history of European colonialism is a history of Christians traveling to other societies and trying to convince them that their gods were false. Those are the kind of frontier narratives that TOS's writers were familiar with and that shaped what they wrote. Yes, TOS exposed the false gods to replace them with self-reliance, but that's just a secularization of the standard trope, because the point was simply to tell adventure stories rather than to proselytize one way or the other.

And s we've discussed, '60s TV preferred to avoid too much explicit religious content altogether. You couldn't openly advocate atheism, but you were expected to avoid outright preaching and just strike a vague middle ground. Which is why so much TV and movie sci-fi -- even from writers who were religious -- substituted "godlike aliens" for actual gods. Glen A. Larson was a Mormon who created Battlestar Galactica largely as a religious allegory, but he depicted the "Beings of Light" and the Satanic Count Iblis as hyper-advanced aliens, because depicting them as actual angels and demons would've run afoul of network censors. As I've pointed out over and over in this thread, you can't assume that what you see on TV from that era was shaped exclusively by the producers' own beliefs instead of the restrictions imposed on them by broadcast standards. Creating commercial television is very, very much a process of compromise, and it was even more so in those days.

 

[Poltargyst]

I repeat yet again: It is certainly true that McCoy probably didn't mean it that way. It is not, however, valid to assert that nobody could possibly mean it that way. General and specific argument are two separate things.




No, it's just a standard adventure-story plot beat. Don't attribute everything in TOS to "GR" -- the show was much more freelancer-driven than modern shows. A lot of its writers were just general TV writers, and they recycled a lot of standard adventure tropes superficially dressed up with sci-fi trappings. A lot of TOS's aliens perpetuated the stock Orientalist or tribal stereotypes in Western fiction, including the recurring trope of primitive tribes that worshipped false idols.

Remember, a lot of the history of European colonialism is a history of Christians traveling to other societies and trying to convince them that their gods were false. Those are the kind of frontier narratives that TOS's writers were familiar with and that shaped what they wrote. Yes, TOS exposed the false gods to replace them with self-reliance, but that's just a secularization of the standard trope, because the point was simply to tell adventure stories rather than to proselytize one way or the other.

And s we've discussed, '60s TV preferred to avoid too much explicit religious content altogether. You couldn't openly advocate atheism, but you were expected to avoid outright preaching and just strike a vague middle ground. Which is why so much TV and movie sci-fi -- even from writers who were religious -- substituted "godlike aliens" for actual gods. Glen A. Larson was a Mormon who created Battlestar Galactica largely as a religious allegory, but he depicted the "Beings of Light" and the Satanic Count Iblis as hyper-advanced aliens, because depicting them as actual angels and demons would've run afoul of network censors. As I've pointed out over and over in this thread, you can't assume that what you see on TV from that era was shaped exclusively by the producers' own beliefs instead of the restrictions imposed on them by broadcast standards. Creating commercial television is very, very much a process of compromise, and it was even more so in those days.

Vaal, Apollo, "God" from Star Trek V, Ardra from TNG's "Devil's Due." You're sure it's not a founding premise of the Star Trek franchise that gods are bad and need to be overthrown so that people can be free to be all they should be?

 

[Timewalker]

Not in canon, no.

In the novelverse it's Horatio.

. That's awful.

After all, if atheists don't believe God is anything more than a human-invented metaphor, why wouldn't we invoke God metaphorically? Your assumption is self-contradictory. The only people who'd take "May God forgive me" literally enough to be that selective about its use are the people who do believe in God.

If you (general 'you') live in a bible-belt where politicians and wannabe politicians are determined to drag your region back to the 1950s in terms of repealing so many of the socially progressive advances just because said advances don't agree with the politicians' religion and you're atheist and not particularly at risk from your neighbors finding out that you're one of those untrustworthy, nasty, immoral people (all words routinely used here to describe atheists), why would you want to use their words? I want to use my own way of expressing myself, not what society here considers the "default".

So "May God forgive me" is something you'd say if you strongly feel the need for forgiveness.

If I feel the need for forgiveness, I'll ask the person I wronged, not an invisible metaphor.

Likewise, if someone wrongs me and wants forgiveness, the only person who can meaningfully grant that forgiveness is me. Not anyone else, not their invisible metaphor.

Vaal, Apollo, "God" from Star Trek V, Ardra from TNG's "Devil's Due." You're sure it's not a founding premise of the Star Trek franchise that gods are bad and need to be overthrown so that people can be free to be all they should be?

It's been a long while since I watched DS9, but I seem to recall that the Prophets (wormhole aliens) were still around at the end of the series. I have no idea how the storyline may have gone with the post-series novels, as I gave up the novels a long time ago.

 

[Christopher]

Vaal, Apollo, "God" from Star Trek V, Ardra from TNG's "Devil's Due." You're sure it's not a founding premise of the Star Trek franchise that gods are bad and need to be overthrown so that people can be free to be all they should be?

As I said, stories about heroes overthrowing false gods are a widespread adventure-fiction trope, by no means exclusive to Trek. Not everything in Trek is about making a philosophical point. A lot of it is just reusing established fiction tropes.

 

[Joanna McCoy-Kirk]

There were a couple of extremely religious people in my local Star Trek club in the '80s/'90s and neither of them batted an eye about that line.

OK, well I noticed it.

 

[Timewalker]

OK, well I noticed it.

Yes, and you drew a conclusion that it would appear few others have. Sometimes a name is just a name, and Deforest Kelley wasn't making any grandiose claims when he requested that McCoy's father's name be his own RL father's name.

There have probably been millions of men named "David" whose parents didn't care about religious connotations and just picked the name because they liked it. I used it for a character in one of my stories a long time ago.

 

[Joanna McCoy-Kirk]

Yes, and you drew a conclusion that it would appear few others have.

How many others have you asked? Maybe the Christians you know don't read the Bible much. The phrase "son of David" is used several times in the New Testament to address Jesus; I didn't just make it up.

 

[BK613]

How many others have you asked? Maybe the Christians you know don't read the Bible much. The phrase "son of David" is used several times in the New Testament to address Jesus; I didn't just make it up.

I remember discussing it with my friends in the 80s after we watched the movie whether that line was meant to be in the same vein as the 'Behold, I am the archangel Gabriel' idea from Bread and Circuses. So no, you are not the only one to think of a biblical reference for that line.

 

[fireproof78]

Couldn't that just as easily point to there being many deceivers who claim to be God, but are not, and the danger of falling under the spell of a counterfeit? (Implying there is a genuine article.)

Indeed.

I find the one sufficient.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Not to mention an unforgivable act against a sentient lifeform who was the last of its kind. As a man of science and healing, taking the life of a sentient being and bringing about the extinction of its species would at least be somewhat troubling to McCoy even if his primary grief was about Nancy.

Agreed; McCoy's conflict was accepting the fact the real Nancy--his Nancy--was long dead, yet knowing in order to save his friend's life in the one way he could, it would bring a sense of finality to Nancy in every sense. To McCoy, an obvious believer in God, killing the image of Nancy was as much a sin as killing the real woman, and again, as a believer, he would naturally ask God for forgiveness as he fired the Phaser.

I have said pretty much all I'm gonna on this other than, in the moment, McCoy was obviously not blurting out "Lord forgive me" in an ironic or humorous fashion or as a general exclamation. It was a network TV series in the 60's. Networks took their religious references seriously and likely wouldn't have permitted a casual reference. It had to be delivered a certain way. We didn't even get a lot of "oh my God's" on the show. And it wasn't colorful metaphor like Zefram Cochran's "Sweet Jesus!" McCoy was at his lowest point, about to take sentient life, one that looked like his old love, and Kelley's delivery tells us all we need to know. He meant it. Really, it's just as okay for McCoy to believe in God, as it is for Roddenberry to NOT. Just so long as Bones isn't going cabin to cabin with pamphlets, who cares?

There's no episode-specific evidence, or any in the rest of the series indicating McCoy's regular religious statements were made in some secularized, ironic manner at all, yet we see some pulling their collective hairs out trying to spin the character--and history of TOS--in its acknowledgement of faith / use of real world religion into network strong-arming of Roddenberry (when NBC did not do that to other series running at the same time), or ignoring actual character development and episode intent to repackage the TOS-was-anti-religion (read: Christianity) myth again and again.

I'm sure someone will attempt to spin Richard Daystrom's unquestioned belief in God / God's laws (which were impressed on M-5's circuits) as NBC forcing that to be part of Daystrom's character, because Roddenberry (or Wolfe & Fontana) ever seriously thought anyone in TOS' 23rd century believed in God / believed in religious doctrine.

But every time, and I mean EVERY time we see a godlike being throughout Star Trek it is always some alien tyrant that needs to be overthown so that the people can be free and make the progress in making their lives better as they are supposed to. It certainly looks like a very consistent message from GR that belief in God or gods enslaves people and keeps them from living their best lives.

In TOS, the consistent treatment had Kirk--a believer in God--always taking down pretenders, aka the false God, whether it was Gary Mitchell or Apollo, hence his pushback to the self-aggrandizing statements (and abuses) from both.

 

[scotpens]

When someone says "Fuck me!" they don't usually, literally mean they are speaking in the imperative, except when they are.

Can't say I've ever heard that phrase used figuratively. Is it used to express astonishment, like "I'll be damned!" or "Cover me with mustard and call me a hot dog!" or "Slap my ass and call me Sally!"?