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Roberto Orci Not Directing Trek XIII

I'm not dragging the show down, I'm just looking at it with a fresh perspective and without the rose colored glasses.

Okay. And that's fine. But I wasn't speaking about the show from the eye of a rose-colored revisionist either. I've been around long enough to see legends and myths be created and later dispelled. I've cringed at the ever-expanding MLK story, heard the salacious stories that took place on set, etc.

But as far as the 'myths' of Star Trek go, I didn't have access to most of them as a young fan. I was only able to watch TOS on syndication, if I could manage to catch it on TV due to the competing interests of other family members regarding the only TV set in the house. And I didn't have the Internet or even a newsletter to keep me up on all the mythmaking.

What I did have were James Blish's (and his wife's) excellent short-form novelizations of the episodes, which I read many, many times. They captured the spirit of the show very well, and were well-written rather than being a transcript of the episode. It strikes me that this format of storytelling will never exist again - in a world of on-demand video, who would bother to read a novelization of a TV how episode? But back then, home video wasn't yet a thing, and there was a demand for the Star Trek stories!

Anyway, what I'm trying to say here is that I, and my fellow geeky youngsters, had these thoughts about Star Trek (regarding its quality and what it meant to us) firsthand, immune from any overblown legends about its supposed historical landmark status. The 'legendary' revisionism stuff came later. To me, Star Trek was the show that sparked my interest in science and philosophy, and helped me appreciate certain principles, such as valuing intelligence and diplomacy over brutism and ignorance.

Maybe I'm out of touch with today's youth, but I don't see these new films having that sort of inspirational effect on youngsters. Sure, they're 'fun' and 'watchable', but to me, there's something to be said about the fact that it seems that every defense of these movies made on this board seems to boil down to how much money they've made - which is perversely contrary to the ethos that the franchise itself always seemed to project - and tends to steer away from any coherent discussion of content. If I never hear anyone mention how much money they've made, it'll be too soon. I know bringing up Transformers is low-hanging fruit, but three of the Transformers films occupy spots in the list of top fifty highest grossing films of all time. There isn't a single Star Trek film on that list.

I guess what bugs me the most is that the brigade of people here - who appear only to post in defense of these films and argue with any and all criticism - are stifling any meaningful discussion about what the flaws are and how the franchise could be improved. I only drop by here every few months these days (usually when there's new Trek news), but when I come back, I always see the same thing - someone new to the forum joins, and starts/joins a thread and posts about how (s)he didn't like the new films, and is immediately pounced upon by the same five or six posters who have been repeating the same mantras since 2009 and somehow managed to never get tired of hearing themselves say the same thing over and over again. Then it gets heated, because they won't just drop the issue, and people start insulting each other, and M'Sharak has to start warning people off. I don't know how these brigadiers find the time to post thousands of posts over five years essentially parroting themselves for the sole purpose of establishing an assertive opinion, but it's a little bizarre in that it goes beyond anything I've seen in fan communities.

If these movies are so excellent and successful in their own right, why do they require such a constant, passionate defense?

Anyway, to press on the attack, as it were, I just don't feel any magic or imagination coming from this franchise anymore. It was a huge universe of possibilities, where anything could happen, and the fandom would explore the Trek universe and discuss what-if's and use their imagination to speculate the ins and outs of the lore as it grew larger and larger. And they still do, if you visit any of the 'classic Trek' sections of the board. But Paramount/JJ/Orci/whomever have decided to cast off nearly 50 years of rich world-building and start over, only to introduce exaggerated versions of characters that were once flushed-out, and create watered-down rehashed versions of stories that were much better the first time.

Star Trek was dead after Nemesis/Enterprise, and it *did* need a change, but I think a reboot was the wrong way to do it. Let's compare it to another long-running beloved sci-fi franchise: Doctor Who, which celebrated its 50th anniversary last year. The 50th Anniversary special of a British sci-fi show sold out at midnight showings in theaters across the United States, with virtually zero advertising in the US outside of the Internet and BBC America. They did it again for the season premiere this fall. I've never heard of TV shows being shown in movie theaters nationwide before! And this is a pretty low-budget show for its scope, funded by Britain's taxpayers.

Meanwhile, Paramount still seems to be scrambling around trying to put together some sort of production before the 50th anniversary opportunity is lost. But can you create a movie that serves as a 50th anniversary celebration when you've rebooted it and destroyed all connections to all the decades that preceded it?

Doctor Who was a show that had 'died' as ignobly as Trek did, and had to be revitalized. But they didn't 'reboot' it; they modernized it, yet pushed it forward while respecting the decades of world-building behind it.

Most importantly, they got the spirit of the show right. While modern Trek is all about revenge and space battles, Doctor Who really captures that 'can-do', 'humanistic', 'explorer' feeling I used to get out of Star Trek. The show evolved but stayed true to its roots. Star Trek was never meant to be a 'summer blockbuster' franchise. Star Trek used to be that show that had a passionate fanbase that wasn't a result of a studio trying to pander to a 'general audience'. Now, Doctor Who fans are the new Trekkies. Kids are playing with toy sonic screwdrivers, not tricorders.

NuTrek has failed to birth a new generation of Trekkies. Toys aren't selling, and nobody's really talking about the films outside of the pre-established fandom. I don't know what kid would want to fantasize about that universe anyway, it's pretty grim and there aren't really any admirable heroes to look up to. The fact that the storyline was resolved by having Spock - arguably the only true pacifist in classic Star Trek - physically beat the shit out of Khan to save the day pretty much serves as an example of everything that's wrong with NuTrek.

Oh dear, and now I'm rambling again.
 
Actually, I know that myself, and many others, often bring up critical reception as well, along with messages we've found in the films that we admire, or that make us think about the social environment in which we live. I despise the Transformers films. Yeah, they made a lot of money, but they're straightforward action films. You can watch all of them, and walk away without considering anything you saw in the film, and that's fine if that's what you want out of a movie. There is nothing wrong with some straight up action.

Yet, the new Star Trek movies are much more than that. For me it's quite clear to see. I love them to death, and consider them to be the closest to TOS; in structure, story, and characterization, since the original series itself.

You say that these new movies aren't creating new Trek fans. There is absolutely no way you can say that with any kind of certainty whatsoever. The movies made money (yes, I'm saying it), and that money had to come from somewhere. Do you think millions of Trekkies just hate watched it in order to build up its box office? There aren't enough Trek fans to sustain a half a billion dollar box office. The rest had to come from somewhere, and what's more, it didn't just happen in 2009. If in 2009 the movie was a success, and then STID bombed in 2013, you might have a point, but the movie made almost the same amount of money. A little less in the U.S., sure, but overseas it exploded.

A sequel did nearly as good in box office take as the first, and the 2009 film had broken the box office for all Star Trek films. That's not people leaving, it's people staying to see more, and in some cases, new people coming into the fold to see what's the big deal about this bunch of nerds and their movies about starships and Klingons.
 
^And not only box office. Both Abrams films have made around 300 million in domestic dvd & blu-ray sales alone, if the numbers I recently saw listed are correct.
I highly doubt that's all coming from old school Trek fans.
 
^And not only box office. Both Abrams films have made around 300 mil in domestic dvd & blu-ray sales if the numbers I recently saw listed are correct.
I highly doubt that's all coming from old school Trek fans.

True, and while it's anecdotal, I did have several friends become Trek fans after seeing ST09 and STID. They were peppering me with questions, and I did my best to answer them. As far as I know, they can't wait for the new movie either.
 
No, it's actually a simple fact that you can Google words whose meaning you do not know.

I don't typically google words used in a particular way when they have an obvious other meaning, like, dark place in a castle or something.
Well, no. "Dudgeon" may not be as commonly encountered in conversation as it once was, but it's a distinctly different word than "dungeon". They're not interchangeable.

Well, there's my problem. I wonder why he didn't just correct my spelling, then.
 
^And not only box office. Both Abrams films have made around 300 mil in domestic dvd & blu-ray sales if the numbers I recently saw listed are correct.
I highly doubt that's all coming from old school Trek fans.

True, and while it's anecdotal, I did have several friends become Trek fans after seeing ST09 and STID. They were peppering me with questions, and I did my best to answer them. As far as I know, they can't wait for the new movie either.

Is this really accurate? The two films have pulled in ~$300 million in DVD and Blu-ray sales? I had no idea. Great to hear, too, if it's correct.
 
^And not only box office. Both Abrams films have made around 300 mil in domestic dvd & blu-ray sales if the numbers I recently saw listed are correct.
I highly doubt that's all coming from old school Trek fans.

True, and while it's anecdotal, I did have several friends become Trek fans after seeing ST09 and STID. They were peppering me with questions, and I did my best to answer them. As far as I know, they can't wait for the new movie either.

Is this really accurate? The two films have pulled in ~$300 million in DVD and Blu-ray sales? I had no idea. Great to hear, too, if it's correct.

I got the numbers from this site, I didn't see international sales though it only mentions domestic.

http://www.the-numbers.com/movie/Star-Trek-XI
http://www.the-numbers.com/movie/Star-Trek-2-%282012%29
 
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^ Well, it's not all that involved, really. What I want from Trek is Horatio Hornblower-style adventure in space with a bit of thoughtfulness underpinning it, since that was the core strength of the original series at its best; and I prefer that to a product that's more like, say, The Fast & Furious in space, or like Star Wars. (Yes, I know you think AbramsTrek is closer to TOS than either of those things, and yes, I do think that claim just doesn't jive with the content on the screen in either movie... but you know that. :D)

EDIT: Another poster alluded on a different thread to Master & Commander having been perhaps the best Trek film to be produced in the current century. It was tongue in cheek, but you know... there's something to it.

You know what's weird? When you say that you want Trek to be a Hornblower adventure with a 'bit of thoughtfulness,' I immediately think: "That's what Abrams gave us." Then, of course, you veer off into objective territory and then claim that's not what we got.

I'm not really interested in going another ten rounds with you on this subject, particularly since you're so doggedly determined to be wrong and proud of it. I do, however, find it interesting that we both claim to want the same things out of Trek but see the actual films quite differently.

As for Master and Commander, I couldn't agree more. It was a fantastic film and you could have swapped Kirk and McCoy for Aubrey and Maturin in more than one scene and played it exactly the same.
 
I enjoyed Trek 2009 for what it was...an attempt to start fresh, so I forgave the mistakes it made and kept my fingers crossed for the potential I saw in the new cast.

My main gripe with the new films isn't the cast, the action, the flashy effects, or even the lens flares...it's the writing.

I'm not a professional writer, so I can't put my finger on exactly why I'm so put off by the writing but I can say I often found the dialogue in the last two movies to be extremely poor. The words feel fake to me. Maybe they're just too 'on the nose' in order to make sure nobody in a general audience misses something.

It's the same thing with Transformers...terrible writing...but then again, there is a whole other level of awful going on in those movies.

I'm disappointed to hear that the suits are looking to Guardians of the Galaxy for inspiration, instead of a movie like Interstellar. I loved both of those movies but I think a more action oriented Trek, with a higher dose of intelligence like Interstellar would do just fine.
 
NuTrek has failed to birth a new generation of Trekkies. Toys aren't selling, and nobody's really talking about the films outside of the pre-established fandom. I don't know what kid would want to fantasize about that universe anyway, it's pretty grim and there aren't really any admirable heroes to look up to. The fact that the storyline was resolved by having Spock - arguably the only true pacifist in classic Star Trek - physically beat the shit out of Khan to save the day pretty much serves as an example of everything that's wrong with NuTrek.

Oh dear, and now I'm rambling again.

I would disagree about the new generation of Trekkies, as that is not what I have seen, either via DVD sales, costuming sites that I frequent, Trek boards or anything else. It isn't as lavish as some of the older shows, but I wouldn't expect that either.

nuTrek did not make Star Trek dark. SF often reflects the societal attitudes of the time, which I think both films did in large ways and small ways. As Santa keeps point out, there are many similarities in the overall tone and spirit of the new films compared to TOS.

The reason why I post in defense of the films is simple-I watched the films get torn apart and Abrams and company be insulted, abused and threatened on a variety of Trek boards (not here), with little desire for a discussion about the merits of the film. Abrams Trek basically got associated with mindless action flicks like Good Day to Die Hard with seemingly little regard to what the films were trying to say.

If it is frustrating to you to have the films defended so much, please understand that it is frustrating to me to repeat myself because I think the films have value and are worthy additions to the Trek franchise. I feel like the films get unjustly ripped upon for doing things that TOS or other Trek films have done in the past.

As for Paramount scrambling, I don't see that at all. Undoubtedly, as a business, they have models for everything, and deadlines they want to meet. They needed a director, and turned that around in what, two weeks? 18 months, with an already established cast and some preproduction done is completely reasonable. To give a quick example from another film, the director for Pirates of the Caribbean was not hired until 10 months before the film's release.

The danger of the franchise, like Trek, becoming so old, is the fact that it attempts to both look forward and look backward. I can recall articles about how good the new Trek films are, but how much they wanted it to be more like TWOK. nuTrek needed to be more Shakespeare, or more like the original films, or something along those lines. The Star Trek film franchise feels, to me, like it is beholden to TWOK and that success can never be replicated.

Beyond that, I don't mind that people don't like the films or find criticism of the films. There are things that I don't like about the films. Here is a short list:

-The pacing
-Harrison being Khan
-Carol Marcus stripping
-Pike's death
-Marcus' death
-Scotty's assistant

That's just a quick bit and undoubtedly I will have some comments for that list.;)

But, those are not deal-breakers for me to enjoy the film. And I guess that's why I defend them-I find enjoyment in them, and am glad to give the reasons why :)
 
I don't typically google words used in a particular way when they have an obvious other meaning, like, dark place in a castle or something.
Well, no. "Dudgeon" may not be as commonly encountered in conversation as it once was, but it's a distinctly different word than "dungeon". They're not interchangeable.

Well, there's my problem. I wonder why he didn't just correct my spelling, then.
I can't speak for BigK on that, but it would probably have saved a lot of time.
 
Anyway, what I'm trying to say here is that I, and my fellow geeky youngsters, had these thoughts about Star Trek (regarding its quality and what it meant to us) firsthand, immune from any overblown legends about its supposed historical landmark status. The 'legendary' revisionism stuff came later. To me, Star Trek was the show that sparked my interest in science and philosophy, and helped me appreciate certain principles, such as valuing intelligence and diplomacy over brutism and ignorance.

Maybe I'm out of touch with today's youth, but I don't see these new films having that sort of inspirational effect on youngsters. Sure, they're 'fun' and 'watchable', but to me, there's something to be said about the fact that it seems that every defense of these movies made on this board seems to boil down to how much money they've made - which is perversely contrary to the ethos that the franchise itself always seemed to project - and tends to steer away from any coherent discussion of content. If I never hear anyone mention how much money they've made, it'll be too soon. I know bringing up Transformers is low-hanging fruit, but three of the Transformers films occupy spots in the list of top fifty highest grossing films of all time. There isn't a single Star Trek film on that list.

I think I know what you mean here. I was a young kid when the movies first started coming out and I remember having watched TOS in syndication before/during/after. TNG and the shows that followed were IMO add-ons, spin-offs... interesting but not what to me defined Trek. That was TOS and the TOS movies. To your point, I too daydreamed about Trek and the technologies. I would draw pictures of the Enterprise, which were confused hybrids (remember, child's mind) between the TOS and refit designs. I was too busy buying early 80s Transformers to buy Trek toys, but Trek was front and center in my imagination. I've shown the new films to both my kids. Both loved the movies; neither showed any interest in toys or characters after the credits rolled or since.

If these movies are so excellent and successful in their own right, why do they require such a constant, passionate defense?

Do they? Is it the movies which require defense (I don't think so) or is it just the various opinions expressed here (I'm pretty sure it is).

Anyway, to press on the attack, as it were, I just don't feel any magic or imagination coming from this franchise anymore. It was a huge universe of possibilities, where anything could happen, and the fandom would explore the Trek universe and discuss what-if's and use their imagination to speculate the ins and outs of the lore as it grew larger and larger. And they still do, if you visit any of the 'classic Trek' sections of the board. But Paramount/JJ/Orci/whomever have decided to cast off nearly 50 years of rich world-building and start over, only to introduce exaggerated versions of characters that were once flushed-out, and create watered-down rehashed versions of stories that were much better the first time.

I think there is plenty of fandom speculation even in these nuTrek forums. I do hear you on the watered-down revisions... but I also understand why they chose to go that route.

Star Trek was dead after Nemesis/Enterprise, and it *did* need a change, but I think a reboot was the wrong way to do it.

Had they simply modernized Trek without a reboot, we would not have been given a new look at Kirk, Spock, and McCoy. I feel this is part of what has made nuTrek a success. Even folks barely familiar with Trek wanted to see recast Captain Kirk and TOS crew. That was huge. Could a JJ Trek film have been hugely succesful without a reboot? Yes. Would it have been the event that was ST09? No (IMO).

NuTrek has failed to birth a new generation of Trekkies. Toys aren't selling, and nobody's really talking about the films outside of the pre-established fandom. I don't know what kid would want to fantasize about that universe anyway, it's pretty grim and there aren't really any admirable heroes to look up to. The fact that the storyline was resolved by having Spock - arguably the only true pacifist in classic Star Trek - physically beat the shit out of Khan to save the day pretty much serves as an example of everything that's wrong with NuTrek.

Hard to respond to this without feeling like I am defending the movies. The concept of the antihero is not unique to NuTrek. I agree that Trek toys don't seem to be popular now (I did see many on shelves after ST09). But I think I missed something along the way because I don't think JJ set out to birth a new generation of Trekkies. He set out to create successful movies.
 
Bringing "objective" into a conversation like this with reference to anything for which there is not quantifiable data is simply a determination not to think.
 
I agree that Trek toys don't seem to be popular now (I did see many on shelves after ST09).

Have Trek toys ever been popular in the same vein as Star Wars and super heroes? Trek has always tended to skew older and with shrinking toy aisles, I'm not surprised that it has trouble in the mainstream market. I have trouble finding Trek toys of any kind on retailers shelves.
 
I'm not dragging the show down, I'm just looking at it with a fresh perspective and without the rose colored glasses.

Okay. And that's fine. But I wasn't speaking about the show from the eye of a rose-colored revisionist either. I've been around long enough to see legends and myths be created and later dispelled. I've cringed at the ever-expanding MLK story, heard the salacious stories that took place on set, etc.
Yet you accused me of "making stuff up" when I said, Star Trek isn't exactly the high brow intellectual think piece people like to cast it as. They confuse the legend, hype and spin with the reality of what Star Trek is. Those legends persist to this day. I see posts on this site repeating them quite often. Many fans are unwilling to let them go.

But as far as the 'myths' of Star Trek go, I didn't have access to most of them as a young fan. I was only able to watch TOS on syndication, if I could manage to catch it on TV due to the competing interests of other family members regarding the only TV set in the house. And I didn't have the Internet or even a newsletter to keep me up on all the mythmaking.
I ran accross the myths in magazines a books about Star Trek. Being a fan I ate that stuff up. Some them started in Whitfield's The Making of Star Trek, which I read in my early teens.

What I did have were James Blish's (and his wife's) excellent short-form novelizations of the episodes, which I read many, many times. They captured the spirit of the show very well, and were well-written rather than being a transcript of the episode. It strikes me that this format of storytelling will never exist again - in a world of on-demand video, who would bother to read a novelization of a TV how episode? But back then, home video wasn't yet a thing, and there was a demand for the Star Trek stories!
I read the Blish novels too. Often conflating them with the actual episodes. They were based on earlier scripts in many cases and didn't reflect the finished product. When rewatching I was amazed how much my perception of the episodes came from Blish.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say here is that I, and my fellow geeky youngsters, had these thoughts about Star Trek (regarding its quality and what it meant to us) firsthand, immune from any overblown legends about its supposed historical landmark status. The 'legendary' revisionism stuff came later. To me, Star Trek was the show that sparked my interest in science and philosophy, and helped me appreciate certain principles, such as valuing intelligence and diplomacy over brutism and ignorance.
No one is saying Star Trek didn't do this. I know it shaped my life in many ways. At the same time Roddenberry and others spent a decade shaping the legend at conventions and other personal appearances. Those legends filtered through fandom, even to people who never attended a con.

Maybe I'm out of touch with today's youth, but I don't see these new films having that sort of inspirational effect on youngsters. Sure, they're 'fun' and 'watchable', but to me, there's something to be said about the fact that it seems that every defense of these movies made on this board seems to boil down to how much money they've made - which is perversely contrary to the ethos that the franchise itself always seemed to project - and tends to steer away from any coherent discussion of content. If I never hear anyone mention how much money they've made, it'll be too soon. I know bringing up Transformers is low-hanging fruit, but three of the Transformers films occupy spots in the list of top fifty highest grossing films of all time. There isn't a single Star Trek film on that list.
The money is mentioned to demonstrate that the films are popular and struck a cord with the audience, not to prove the films are great works of art.

Saw the first Transformers film, didn't like it, so I never bothered with the rest. Titanic is a Harlequin romance with nice SFX. Avatar is pretty to look at but about as deep as mud puddle. A lot of money making films aren't intellectual masterpieces of art. It's no big deal. People don't usually hit the cinema looking for enlightenment.

Yeah, Trek films are not on list of the top money making films of all time. Not sure what the point of mentioning that is. None of them are listed among the most thought provoking films of all either. No one is going to mistake a Trek film for Citizen Kane.

I guess what bugs me the most is that the brigade of people here - who appear only to post in defense of these films and argue with any and all criticism - are stifling any meaningful discussion about what the flaws are and how the franchise could be improved.
I think that's a misperception. Most of the people who like the film do see its flaws and are more than willing to discuss them. Yes, there are people who are blind to the flaws (or pretend to be), but they are in the minority. I've not seen any actual discussions being stifled. The ones that get shut down tend to be ones that like to paint people who enjoy the film as young, ADD afflicted, knuckle dragging morons. It gets old pretty fast.

I only drop by here every few months these days (usually when there's new Trek news), but when I come back, I always see the same thing - someone new to the forum joins, and starts/joins a thread and posts about how (s)he didn't like the new films, and is immediately pounced upon by the same five or six posters who have been repeating the same mantras since 2009 and somehow managed to never get tired of hearing themselves say the same thing over and over again. Then it gets heated, because they won't just drop the issue, and people start insulting each other, and M'Sharak has to start warning people off. I don't know how these brigadiers find the time to post thousands of posts over five years essentially parroting themselves for the sole purpose of establishing an assertive opinion, but it's a little bizarre in that it goes beyond anything I've seen in fan communities.
If these movies are so excellent and successful in their own right, why do they require such a constant, passionate defense?
Why in world wouldn't fans defend something they liked, especially if it and they are being unfairly maligned? And why would anyone go to a place dedicated to a particular film or TV show and insult it's fans? Of course I have no answer, because I've seen it done for decades. TNG, DS9, VOY and ENT all had it happen. Doctor Who had it happen when it came back. So no this is not unique to the New Trek films.

Anyway, to press on the attack, as it were, I just don't feel any magic or imagination coming from this franchise anymore. It was a huge universe of possibilities, where anything could happen, and the fandom would explore the Trek universe and discuss what-if's and use their imagination to speculate the ins and outs of the lore as it grew larger and larger. And they still do, if you visit any of the 'classic Trek' sections of the board. But Paramount/JJ/Orci/whomever have decided to cast off nearly 50 years of rich world-building and start over, only to introduce exaggerated versions of characters that were once flushed-out, and create watered-down rehashed versions of stories that were much better the first time.
If you don't feel the magic that's fine. The films aren't for you. Go to the other forums and discuss the old shows and films. Go to the Future of Trek forum and talk about your ideas for Trek. Go to the Lit forum and talk about the novels. Me, I don't like Voyager. I only go to that forum to post in the caption contest. You won't find me there talking about how much I dislike the show. There are plenty of Treks I like where I can spend my time and enjoy myself.

Star Trek was dead after Nemesis/Enterprise, and it *did* need a change, but I think a reboot was the wrong way to do it. Let's compare it to another long-running beloved sci-fi franchise: Doctor Who, which celebrated its 50th anniversary last year. The 50th Anniversary special of a British sci-fi show sold out at midnight showings in theaters across the United States, with virtually zero advertising in the US outside of the Internet and BBC America. They did it again for the season premiere this fall. I've never heard of TV shows being shown in movie theaters nationwide before! And this is a pretty low-budget show for its scope, funded by Britain's taxpayers.
Yep, I was there. It was pretty cool. I think you underestimate the appeal and scope of nuWho in recent years.

Meanwhile, Paramount still seems to be scrambling around trying to put together some sort of production before the 50th anniversary opportunity is lost. But can you create a movie that serves as a 50th anniversary celebration when you've rebooted it and destroyed all connections to all the decades that preceded it?
Scrambling? They have a script, director and release date. Don't believe the internet spin.

What's been destroyed? The connections are there. The new films play off those connections. The parts of Trek that have drifted into the cultural subconscious are very present in these films.

Doctor Who was a show that had 'died' as ignobly as Trek did, and had to be revitalized. But they didn't 'reboot' it; they modernized it, yet pushed it forward while respecting the decades of world-building behind it.
You'll find Whofans who very much disagree with this. Often using the same arguments as detractors of New Trek.

Most importantly, they got the spirit of the show right. While modern Trek is all about revenge and space battles, Doctor Who really captures that 'can-do', 'humanistic', 'explorer' feeling I used to get out of Star Trek. The show evolved but stayed true to its roots. Star Trek was never meant to be a 'summer blockbuster' franchise. Star Trek used to be that show that had a passionate fanbase that wasn't a result of a studio trying to pander to a 'general audience'. Now, Doctor Who fans are the new Trekkies. Kids are playing with toy sonic screwdrivers, not tricorders.
On film Star Trek very much wanted to be a summer blockbuster, starting with TWOK. (Once titled the Revenge of Khan) And they kept trying.

And there we go with the negative buzz words. "General audience". "Pander". Star Trek was conceived as TV show with the hope it would appeal to the general audience, because that's how TV makes its money. More so in the 60s, than now. No one wanted it to have a small passionate fanbase. The wanted a large fanbase that would watch the show and buy the advertised products. Those are Star Trek's roots.

NuTrek has failed to birth a new generation of Trekkies. Toys aren't selling, and nobody's really talking about the films outside of the pre-established fandom. I don't know what kid would want to fantasize about that universe anyway, it's pretty grim and there aren't really any admirable heroes to look up to. The fact that the storyline was resolved by having Spock - arguably the only true pacifist in classic Star Trek - physically beat the shit out of Khan to save the day pretty much serves as an example of everything that's wrong with NuTrek.

Oh dear, and now I'm rambling again.

That's conjecture. No one really knows how many new Trekkies were born after seeing the new films. We've seen a few here, though. I've no idea how much people are talking about Trek films ( or any other film for that matter). Most people who watch movies probably don't talk about them much. So I doubt that's a metric. Forums like this are the place for people who do. I've never been into Trek toys, so I've no real frame of reference on that. If they didn't sell, maybe they weren't that good.

The idea this new universe is grim and gritty has been pretty well debunked elsewhere on this forum. It not. It pretty much the same optimistic future Trek has always presented. Trek was always full of Starfleet officers gone wrong, planet killers and fisticuffs. In New Trek the Federation and Starfleet ( especially our heroes) are still the good guys and our heroes win in the end.

Kirk is a traditional hero and easy for a kid to look up to. Being cocky and brash is hardly a new development for the character.

Spock kicking someone ass (usually Kirk) because of some extreme situation until he's talked down by someone ( usually Kirk) is a Trek tradition. It's when Spock "snaps" that he becomes interesting and multi dimensional. Most Spock episodes are about him confronting his emotions head on rather than suppressing them. Cool, pacifist Spock is okay when he's playing second fiddle to Kirk or exchanging barbs with McCoy, but not when he's front and center.
 
I agree that Trek toys don't seem to be popular now (I did see many on shelves after ST09).

Have Trek toys ever been popular in the same vein as Star Wars and super heroes? Trek has always tended to skew older and with shrinking toy aisles, I'm not surprised that it has trouble in the mainstream market. I have trouble finding Trek toys of any kind on retailers shelves.

Speaking as someone who actively looked for toys, both Trek and Star Wars, Trek toys would often be a little harder to come by, whereas when Hasbro reinvigorated Star Wars toys there was usually much more selection.

Personally, I wish Trek would do more, and when TNG was at its height, there was plenty of figures. But, there was not as much for TOS, and by DS9 it had started to wane.

I think it is finding the right mix. I would be curious to see the sales for the Kree-o models that Hasbro released for ID. One aspect that Star Wars always did well was unique figures (fan selections, EU variants, special editions, etc) and a variety of ships for the characters to pilot. I can recall using my SW ships as "fighters" for my Star Trek figures. The ships were probably one place that Trek struggled with.

The other part was that they were only released while a show was on, or a film was being promoted. With Star Wars, you can always find their toys.
 
I read somewhere above about "purists" not liking Abrams Trek because it's not Prime and it's not directed like a TV episode. Trek 2009 was okay with me. It was only after STID that I really recognized my feelings that the alternate reality left me detached from and uncaring about their reality because it is not set in "my" Prime Universe. But the comment about purists wanting a Prime universe directed like a TV episode dismisses all the TOS movies, at least, and perhaps a lot of good Star Trek TV series episodes and directors. I don't think that's a fair implication. Most of the TOS movies were good.

I'll grant one thing that the Abramsverse made convenient in a very clever way: It allowed for an extremely easy way to introduce a new cast to represent the TOS crew that we had known and grown up with for 43 years prior. Not an easy thing to do. And I agree with the claim that most of us wanted the original crew back even if it could not be the original cast. For that, we are grateful.
 
I read somewhere above about "purists" not liking Abrams Trek because it's not Prime and it's not directed like a TV episode. Trek 2009 was okay with me. It was only after STID that I really recognized my feelings that the alternate reality left me detached from and uncaring about their reality because it is not set in "my" Prime Universe. But the comment about purists wanting a Prime universe directed like a TV episode dismisses all the TOS movies, at least, and perhaps a lot of good Star Trek TV series episodes and directors. I don't think that's a fair implication. Most of the TOS movies were good.

I'll grant one thing that the Abramsverse made convenient in a very clever way: It allowed for an extremely easy way to introduce a new cast to represent the TOS crew that we had known and grown up with for 43 years prior. Not an easy thing to do. And I agree with the claim that most of us wanted the original crew back even if it could not be the original cast. For that, we are grateful.

Agreed. I remember thinking when I first heard Enterprise was going to be a prequel, that we would get the story of the TOS characters coming together for the first time.... what we eventually got in ST09. In hindsight, I am MUCH happier that JJ told us that story.

EDIT: even if it was not the Prime Universe story
 
I love the way JJ told that story. Sure, it's an alternate type universe, but it's still great seeing them all come together before we saw them on the original series. I can't wait for the third film.
 
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