Riker terminating the clones in "Up the Long Ladder"

[JTShanks]

I like Riker, one of my favorite TNG characters; but I must say, he was not in the right of doing that sort of thing.

I mean it is really difficult to picture the same man that said preserving and helping life in any way possible as well as was alright with Thomas Riker as well would actually kill a clone of himself just because he doesn't believe in it.

Not that it matters anyway, this episode doesn't make much sense to me anyways in the long run.

 

[Ithekro]

Makes perfect sense. The clones were not finished. The case was theft. The stolen materal was destroyed by those it was stolen from.

All later cases of clones being considered alive and viable are completed clones. These seem to be protected by law. Unfinished clones are not protected by Federation law.

 

[Mojochi]

Right. Unlike the incubator blobs, Tom Riker was already a fully formed, living being. It's even arguable as to whether he is actually a clone in the strictest sense, by Star Trek standards. No genetic drift, or replicative fading.

 

[triskelion16]

The casual brutality of it, the total lack of hesitation. It's downright barbaric. Pulaski, who's supposed to be a Doctor, just nods her assent without a second thought or even a first one for that matter.

I am certain it wasn't the impression it was meant to convey and that's what's dismaying. Thankfully, there aren't too many of these moments in the series.

 

[Timo]

Well, Riker is a soldier (and in many cases a policeman as well), and Pulaski is a doctor. They both kill for a living. They no doubt also are well versed in the legal and moral ramifications of their professions. So it would be odd and unprofessional for them to flinch when they merely conduct their daily jobs.

That we in the audience might flinch and prevaricate is because of the surprise factor. There is little or no surprise involved in the part of the heroes, though. Just disgust at once again running into a vile crime, by their professional standards.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mojochi]

Besides, if it's just a pod full of partially formed peoplestuff, then what's so barbaric about it? Contrarily, it's Riker & Pulaski who seem reviled at the presence of what they consider abominations. Why would, you have hesitation about destroying an abomination? The episode may be lame, but their behavior makes sense, in its context

 

[triskelion16]

^There's absolutely no prevarication on my part, I am downright disgusted by this act. The casual way it is perpetrated, only compounds the feeling of disgust.

 

[triskelion16]

Besides, if it's just a pod full of partially formed peoplestuff, then what's so barbaric about it? Contrarily, it's Riker & Pulaski who seem reviled at the presence of what they consider abominations. Why would, you have hesitation about destroying an abomination? The episode may be lame, but their behavior makes sense, in its context

In the same series we have a doctor being severely punished for destroying something that definitely qualifies as an abomination. The same people that are completely indifferent here, were outraged at her behavior. Something just doesn't add up.

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

Old thread topics never die, they just fade away... and then come back again.

Sorry, I was away at the time and didn't see that one.

I can understand the point about the clones not yet being developed enough. Perhaps they were just "vegetables" that would have to be "activated" somehow upon full development.

The prime minister regarded it as murder, while Riker responded by calling him a thief. Without bringing in real-world issues.... they were completely missing each others' points.

Kor

I wouldn't worry about it. That other one was closed 5 months ago.

Hopefully this one won't "drift off into warnings territory"

As far as this episode, those scientists should have faced charges, at least.

 

[Ithekro]

Riker destroyed the evidance so they could not face charges, but instead had to face facts that their little cloning society was doomed if it continued as it has been.

 

[suarezguy]

The scene was somewhat disturbing but I could accept that they were sufficiently undeveloped.

The prime minister calling it murder is a pretty skewed perspective though. Of course he's going to call it that. It's his colony's only way to continue existing. In fact, there is a possibility that he's even being more abstract in his claim, than just referring to the termination of those two particular clones.

I thought the scene, especially its ending, was an effective if dramatized/stylized criticism of the anti-abortion point of view, criticizing the idea that being pro-life, especially if it related to your personal interests, could allow people to override all other considerations and rights of others and still feel justified about it. It's a difficult issue so it was good that the writers at least showed how both "sides" (although one was Our Heroes) felt both passionate in their principles and those principles were also related to self-interest.
It also relates to how both the Federation and the societies they visit tend to be pretty communal/collectivist but the Federation tends to be much more conflicted between collective interests and individual rights.

 

[hux]

Or Pulaski is playing on the males of two civilizations that do not want to get along and provides them with a base point they might agree on. Sex sells, as they say.

DANILO: I think I could handle that, yes.
GRANGER: Oh, God, it's so....
PICARD: Frightening?
GRANGER: Repugnant.

The Marposan men are clearly not gonna be enticed by sex (the Bringloidi men might) but even if they were, why doesn't Pulaski consider the wishes of the women in any of this? Is it realistic that a 24th century woman would encourage a society to view women as convenient baby squeezer outers?

This whole episode is bizarrely archaic (even for the late 80's let alone the 24th century)

Last time this was discussed, someone suggested that Pulaski is simply trying to encourage the Marposan's to get back in touch with their humanity and a shag fest might help that along. A reasonable notion perhaps but I still don't see what business it is of hers how their society should develop culturally and more importantly, I just don't see a 24th century woman making that kind of suggestion

Impregnate the women. Have a ball fellas"

 

[Timo]

Pulaski is stating the facts of the matter in her trademark style. If they don't satisfy the archaic (that is, early 21st century) sentiments of the audience (and perhaps the colonists), well, tough for them.

I'm pretty sure that mankind by the 24th century (real or Trek) will have outgrown the idea that a woman who has lots of kids is an oppressed animal, a traitor of all womankind, and a slut all in one package... Oh, I almost forgot wanton destroyer of the ecosystem, but I'm pretty sure they'll invent a pill for that eventually.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[triskelion16]

It's laughably absurd that on one hand they know how to make clones in a way that we can't even conceive (pardon the pun) and on the other hand they don't know about artificial insemination which is real, much simpler, and doesn't require people to have sex to make babies, or even to know each other for that matter. If the goal is to increase the DNA diversity of their community, then artificial insemination is definitely the way that will be the least disturbing for the current generation.

 

[hux]

Pulaski is stating the facts of the matter in her trademark style.

Not really. She's specifically telling them that they need to do something that they don't actually need to do at all

Now if this is going to work, you're going to have to alter your society, too. Monogamous marriage will not be possible for several generations.

I'm pretty sure that mankind by the 24th century (real or Trek) will have outgrown the idea that a woman who has lots of kids is an oppressed animal, a traitor of all womankind, and a slut all in one package... Oh, I almost forgot wanton destroyer of the ecosystem, but I'm pretty sure they'll invent a pill for that eventually.

Wait, what? Who exactly thinks that even now

 

[Ithekro]

The episode was aired in the spring of 1989.

 

[triskelion16]

The episode was aired in the spring of 1989.

Indeed, that twenty-six years ago, an entire generation and some change has passed.

 

[dswynne1]

There's some suggestion that Abortion is okay in the 24c (see: one of the suggestions proposed to Troi's mysterious child in "The Child"/Season 2 opener.)

It could be argued that the clones were not viable enough yet to be considered "a person" so an "abortion" was okay to perform. Since Riker and Pulaski were the genetic donors for the clone they arguably had the right to abort the clones.

It's a thin and slippery line but that's where I put it.

I don't think here or in "The Child" the show was really trying to make any abortion argument or analogue -or at least intentionally doing so or making any meaningful one- but The Child does suggest abortion is okay in the 24c. There may be some suggestion elsewhere in the franchise to support this. Or maybe even to contradict it.

Further, it could also be argued that the clones were not seen as sentient either by nature of being a clone or at their current stage of development. And there's plenty of times in Trek where sentience is seen as the line between a being having a right to life and not having one. For example. Data claims Spot isn't a sentient being (though in reality cats are sentient. Though not sapient. Trek melds and confuses the two a lot) and as such it's apparently okay for Data to "possess" Spot just as we do with pets. Similarly with Picard and Livingston (his fish) and every other pet we see.

So either the clones were not viable enough yet for abortion to still be legally okay or clones by their very nature are not considered sentient or simply weren't at that stage of development. In both cases the genetic donor having the right or freedom to abort their genetic offspring.

Abortion is not about the life of the fetus, it's about a woman's right to decide about what's going on inside of her own body.

SNIP!

...which results in the termination of a potential human being, which makes the scene in which Riker terminates the developing clones all the more powerful. So, basically, this episode the clones were aborted because it was the right of the "clone-mother" (ie. Riker and Pulaski), but was the abortion justified, given that consent was not given? Tough issue, with no clear answer.

 

[Timo]

She's specifically telling them that they need to do something that they don't actually need to do at all

In vitro or in vivo, that is exactly what they will have to do. "Monogamous marriage" in this context is meaningless gobbledigook when the practical issue is that every "wife" will bear children for many fathers, lest the gene pool grow stagnant.

Sure, there are dozens of other options. But the colonists already tried out a couple of them, and they didn't pan out; they implicitly refused to try out a couple of others, so Pulaski need not spell those out for them. But the one issue where the two sides explicitly have common ground is this polygamous breeding: both sides flat out refuse contact with and genetic material from the rest of the mankind (they sailed to distant stars to escape that kind!); despite their differences, both are willing to compromise on utilitarian grounds (they shared a spacecraft!); and the Mariposans have no particular desire for traditional marriages (they already readily considered the unthinkable and went for cloning!) while the Bringloidi are explicitly go for clusterbreeding. It's no wonder Pulaski zeroed in on that option.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Makarov]

What I don't get is why they want to save their broken civilization anyway. Stay on that planet and become a baby making machine with this entire group of people they just met or just join the federation, go somewhere that actually has a future, hmm tough choice.