Riker: An underrated character?

[JarodRussell]

No one in Trek should be fat though, it ruins the idea of the idea of the kind of future the show portrays for me.

The actual idea of Star Trek's future is "nobody fucking cares". That's why Picard is bald and doesn't use 24th century hair growing technology.

And I'm amazed that only Frakes is the bad actor, as everyone of the cast had gotten "extremely fat" in Nemesis.

 

[CoveTom]

The problem with the character of Riker was, frankly, Patrick Stewart.

TNG was originally conceived with the concept of the captain not being sent down to the planet in the thick of things every single week, as was done on TOS. David Gerrold, among others, originally pointed out the folly of putting your captain in mortal danger on a weekly basis, made all the worse by him normally having his first officer with him at the same time.

Picard was to be the thinker, the diplomat, and the decision-maker. His choices were to drive the story. But he was not "action guy". He would not, except in unusual circumstances, be down on the planet getting in the phaser fights with the baddie of the week. That would be Riker.

That format held pretty true through the first couple of seasons, but once TNG was a bona fide hit, and Patrick Stewart had a lot more clout, he started to express his desire that the captain needed more "shooting and sex". Stewart is a great actor, but it troubles me that he couldn't see the potential for him as an actor to play Picard as originally written, but needed to focus on getting him into the Kirkian action and love scenes.

Gradually, they kept moving more in the direction of putting Picard in the center of things, and Riker's role became less clear. By the time of the movies, particularly First Contact where Stewart threw a fit over the idea that he'd be helping Cochrane while Riker fought the Borg, the transition was complete and we ended up with "action hero Picard".

It's a shame, because I thought the original characterizations were much more interesting.

EDIT to add: It also disappoints me that we're talking in this thread about the actors "getting fat". It shows me just how skewed our perceptions have become in society. There was not a single person, even in Nemesis, among the TNG cast who "got fat". Sure, they had a few more pounds than they did in their series days -- you know, as people normally do when they get older -- but to call them "fat" only reinforces our ridiculous anorexic Hollywood standard that our society loves to embrace.

 

[Worf'sParmach]

Great analysis, CoveSanta. I totally agree.

Though I think the weight issue is a little bit "chicken and the egg." Did Picard step up as "Action Captain" because Stewart, though older, was in better shape than Frakes, or did Frakes just say "Pass the potatoes" once it was clear he wasn't the action guy anymore?

 

[BennyRussel]

I don't want to dump on Patrick Stewart (I love the guy) but CoveSanta couldn't be more right.

This points out the principal difference between Stewart and Avery Brooks. Say what you want about who you think is the better actor - Brooks was the more generous actor.

Think of the ending to DS9.

Spoiler: the last episode of DS9

Capt. Sisko was sitting on the bridge of his ship when his first officer and two others who weren't even part of the main cast stormed Dominion Headquarters, blasted through the guards and captured the Founder and Weyoun.

There is no way that Riker would have gotten that much critical action on TNG.

Spoiler: more DS9 ending stuff

The roles would have been reversed and the Captain would have been the one to storm in and save the day with "Phasers Blazing"

 

[Paper Moon]

Gradually, they kept moving more in the direction of putting Picard in the center of things, and Riker's role became less clear. By the time of the movies, particularly First Contact where Stewart threw a fit over the idea that he'd be helping Cochrane while Riker fought the Borg, the transition was complete and we ended up with "action hero Picard".

I basically agree with you, except on this point. It would have seemed weird if Picard had not been dealing with the Borg up on the ship; Picard's struggle with the Borg was so personal that it put the character in a compromising situation. Picard was so close to his hatred of the Borg that he couldn't see the situation objectively. And that was one of the great points of First Contact. Stewart, though his motivations may have been questionable (who knows how much thought he had put in to considering Picard's long-term story arc?), definitely made the film better by insisting that he fight the Borg.

EDIT to add: It also disappoints me that we're talking in this thread about the actors "getting fat". It shows me just how skewed our perceptions have become in society. There was not a single person, even in Nemesis, among the TNG cast who "got fat". Sure, they had a few more pounds than they did in their series days -- you know, as people normally do when they get older -- but to call them "fat" only reinforces our ridiculous anorexic Hollywood standard that our society loves to embrace.

This. Also, Riker's figure actually got him some fans. Google "Jonathan Frakes bear", and you'll find that he is actually a bit of an icon in the "bear" community. "Bears" are a subset of the gay male community who prefer men with beards and larger physiques- ie. Jonathan Frakes or Will Riker (assuming I have understood correctly...)

But the larger point remains- criticizing Frakes' acting abilities or possible lack thereof is one thing. But his figure, that's another.

 

[JarodRussell]

The cast was actually at their fittest in First Contact. Everyone looks in great shape, much better shape than in Generations or the last episodes of Season 7. Especially Frakes.

 

[Worf'sParmach]

This points out the principal difference between Stewart and Avery Brooks. Say what you want about who you think is the better actor - Brooks was the more generous actor.

Think of the ending to DS9...

Yep. Now, whether this is the actors or the writers/producers, I don't know. But DS9 is more ensemble than TNG. The Captain did not do everything.

 

[JarodRussell]

DS9 simply had the better writers and a better setting for longer character arcs. And yeah, the characters were a lot more interesting.

Data totally annoys me nowadays, and Troi is just an empty shell saying stupid things. I can't say that about any of the DS9 characters.

Even Worf and O'Brien got a LOT better on DS9.

 

[AFEK ESLCAFE W]

I don't want to dump on Patrick Stewart (I love the guy) but CoveSanta couldn't be more right.

This points out the principal difference between Stewart and Avery Brooks. Say what you want about who you think is the better actor - Brooks was the more generous actor.

Think of the ending to DS9.

Spoiler: the last episode of DS9

Capt. Sisko was sitting on the bridge of his ship when his first officer and two others who weren't even part of the main cast stormed Dominion Headquarters, blasted through the guards and captured the Founder and Weyoun.

There is no way that Riker would have gotten that much critical action on TNG.

Spoiler: more DS9 ending stuff

The roles would have been reversed and the Captain would have been the one to storm in and save the day with "Phasers Blazing"

Patrick Stewart wanted stardom, the adoration, and the limelight.

Avery Brooks did not want to be the star and just remain on his show to fulfill a 7 year contract. He knew he was more or less typecast as Captain Sisko.

Mr. Brooks himself shied away from many interviews to promote his show, including late night talk shows and such.

By contrast, Stewart promoted himself every way he could get. Even now into his 70's.

 

[AFEK ESLCAFE W]

The problem with the character of Riker was, frankly, Patrick Stewart.

TNG was originally conceived with the concept of the captain not being sent down to the planet in the thick of things every single week, as was done on TOS. David Gerrold, among others, originally pointed out the folly of putting your captain in mortal danger on a weekly basis, made all the worse by him normally having his first officer with him at the same time.

Picard was to be the thinker, the diplomat, and the decision-maker. His choices were to drive the story. But he was not "action guy". He would not, except in unusual circumstances, be down on the planet getting in the phaser fights with the baddie of the week. That would be Riker.

That format held pretty true through the first couple of seasons, but once TNG was a bona fide hit, and Patrick Stewart had a lot more clout, he started to express his desire that the captain needed more "shooting and sex". Stewart is a great actor, but it troubles me that he couldn't see the potential for him as an actor to play Picard as originally written, but needed to focus on getting him into the Kirkian action and love scenes.

Gradually, they kept moving more in the direction of putting Picard in the center of things, and Riker's role became less clear. By the time of the movies, particularly First Contact where Stewart threw a fit over the idea that he'd be helping Cochrane while Riker fought the Borg, the transition was complete and we ended up with "action hero Picard".

It's a shame, because I thought the original characterizations were much more interesting.

EDIT to add: It also disappoints me that we're talking in this thread about the actors "getting fat". It shows me just how skewed our perceptions have become in society. There was not a single person, even in Nemesis, among the TNG cast who "got fat". Sure, they had a few more pounds than they did in their series days -- you know, as people normally do when they get older -- but to call them "fat" only reinforces our ridiculous anorexic Hollywood standard that our society loves to embrace.

Dramatically -- and much more importantly commercially -- it made greater financial sense.

If TNG followed it's original format of its first officer beaming into all the action while its captain remained on the bridge and the ready room all the time, it would have continued to make the lead character look weak in the eyes of viewers and wisely (career-wise and financially) Patrick Stewart lobbied to make his role better for the show. Which in turn made TNG into a better show.

Riker was the "original Trip" of his show. Whereas Jonathan Frakes benefitted only 2 initial seasons of that in TNG, Connor Trinneer ran with it for all 4 seasons of ENT.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

DS9 simply had the better writers and a better setting for longer character arcs. And yeah, the characters were a lot more interesting.

Data totally annoys me nowadays, and Troi is just an empty shell saying stupid things. I can't say that about any of the DS9 characters.

Even Worf and O'Brien got a LOT better on DS9.

True. DS9 was written to take into account previous episodes, whereas TNG, more often than not, hit the "reset" button each week. That lends itself to "character drift" rather than "character development."

As for Riker, though he was almost always enjoyable, his "development" effectively ended with BoBW2. Without the opportunity to command (which, as BoBW demonstrated, was the natural progression for Riker), there was little else for him to do - at least in terms of growth. Even his best episodes ("First Contact," "Schisms," "Frame of Mind," etc.) did little to advance his character.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, "Second Chances" was a huge missed opportunity. Kill off Commander Riker and watch Lt. Riker struggle to find his place on the Enterprise.

But there was that inevitable "reset" button ...

 

[Mark 2000]

I like Riker. Worf is angsty. Picard is a prude. Geordi's a nerd. Data is Data. Crusher is dull. Troi thinks chocolate is the best thing ever and gets raped twice a season. Riker was the only one having any fun. When ever he smirked I new we would be in for a good time. He liked to drink, play sports, love women, and looked forward to every adventure. And besides some minor daddy issues he was pretty much mentally fit.

Riker is the joy. Riker is the labito. Riker is the fun.

 

[TheSeeker]

The cast was actually at their fittest in First Contact. Everyone looks in great shape, much better shape than in Generations or the last episodes of Season 7. Especially Frakes.

That was one of the first things I thought when I went to see First Contact. I was happy to see that Frakes had gotten back into shape.

 

[CoveTom]

Dramatically -- and much more importantly commercially -- it made greater financial sense.

If TNG followed it's original format of its first officer beaming into all the action while its captain remained on the bridge and the ready room all the time, it would have continued to make the lead character look weak in the eyes of viewers and wisely (career-wise and financially) Patrick Stewart lobbied to make his role better for the show. Which in turn made TNG into a better show.

I can't express how completely I disagree with every single word you just said.

That the captain would "look weak" if he was actually an intelligent, thoughtful leader who was driving the action through his decisions on the Enterprise, and could only be a strong character in the eyes of the viewers if he was being involved in phaser fights on a weekly basis, is just about the opposite of everything TNG stood for.

Also, I think the show worked much better when Picard was the leader but Riker was the action guy. Picard's forays into tough action guy situations worked a lot better, and had a lot more impact, when they were the exception rather than the rule.

 

[BrownShatner]

The problem with the character of Riker was, frankly, Patrick Stewart.

The audience genuinely wanted to see the "sexy bald captain" take a more action-oriented role. I wouldn't put this on Stewart personally.

Also, the big problem with getting "fat" was the skin-tight costumes used in Star Trek. In another type of show, Frakes might have been able to pull it off.

 

[TheSeeker]

Yeah. Just look at Nathan Fillion in Castle these days. He's easily in Riker's weight class now.

 

[AFEK ESLCAFE W]

^^^

Do you have photos to back this up, because his previous incarnation is what I keep visualizing in my mind.

The problem with the character of Riker was, frankly, Patrick Stewart.

The audience genuinely wanted to see the "sexy bald captain" take a more action-oriented role. I wouldn't put this on Stewart personally.

Also, the big problem with getting "fat" was the skin-tight costumes used in Star Trek. In another type of show, Frakes might have been able to pull it off.

Nope, it was actually Stewart behind the scenes who demanded to the writers and the producers that he wanted more of a central role in the spotlight (i.e. "More sex and shooting."), because he infact was the captain and the top-billed star of the series.

 

[Amaris]

Firefly:

Castle:

As you can see, he's become bulkier, and his face has filled out. I noticed it when I saw him in "Castle" for the first time a few months ago. Though it doesn't bother me, it is noticeable.

Anyhoo, back to Riker. Love him. Jonathan Frakes played him wonderfully, and I enjoyed the personality of the character himself.

 

[You_Will_Fail]

Shouldn't you be comparing his figure at the beginning of Castle to how he is now, rather than from Firefly to how he is now? Anyway, his figure looks great now - he looks like he's been working out instead of eating pies like Frakes.

 

[Amaris]

Shouldn't you be comparing his figure at the beginning of Castle to how he is now, rather than from Firefly to how he is now?

No, because not enough time has passed between the beginning and current season of Castle. Otherwise, you would have commented on Frakes' appearance by Season 3 of TNG rather than Season 7.

Anyway, his figure looks great now - he looks like he's been working out instead of eating pies like Frakes.

Yeah, I'd fuck him, too. That said, he has filled out as he's aged, which is normal.