Riker after The Best of Both Worlds

[USS KG5]

How does it work in real life navies? Doesn't flagships, or whatever they are called, get staffed by both recruits and veterans, just like Enterprise?

In real navies a flagship just happens to be the ship with the flag officer on board. In very small navies one would imagine one ship usually being the flagship of any task force, but there is no single ship considered the pride of the Navy that always flies the flag.

It was quite common for the flag to fly in the strongest ship of a fleet, or the most prestigious. Certainly HMS Hood was often a flagship and considered the pride of the Royal Navy (she was very big and good-looking for a battleship).

Also of course it makes a lot of sense for your "mission critical" to carry the flag, you can protect your biggest asset and your commander at the same time, so in US Navy carrier groups the massive carriers accomodate the Admiral.

 

[Admiral Shran]

How does it work in real life navies? Doesn't flagships, or whatever they are called, get staffed by both recruits and veterans, just like Enterprise?

In real navies a flagship just happens to be the ship with the flag officer on board. In very small navies one would imagine one ship usually being the flagship of any task force, but there is no single ship considered the pride of the Navy that always flies the flag.

It was quite common for the flag to fly in the strongest ship of a fleet, or the most prestigious. Certainly HMS Hood was often a flagship and considered the pride of the Royal Navy (she was very big and good-looking for a battleship).

Also of course it makes a lot of sense for your "mission critical" to carry the flag, you can protect your biggest asset and your commander at the same time, so in US Navy carrier groups the massive carriers accomodate the Admiral.

This gives me another idea. Since the Enterprise was the Federation's flagship, would it be a good idea for Picard to be a Rear Admiral but retain command of the ship. That way the ship would have an Admiral as the CO (Picard), a Captain as the XO (Riker), and a Commander as the Second Officer (Data)?

From what I know, most real life navies have an Admiral on the flagship, commanding a task force usually. However, the flagship itself has it's own captain, whose responsibility is for that one ship, not the task force.

 

[Pseudo]

How does it work in real life navies? Doesn't flagships, or whatever they are called, get staffed by both recruits and veterans, just like Enterprise?

In real navies a flagship just happens to be the ship with the flag officer on board. In very small navies one would imagine one ship usually being the flagship of any task force, but there is no single ship considered the pride of the Navy that always flies the flag.

It was quite common for the flag to fly in the strongest ship of a fleet, or the most prestigious. Certainly HMS Hood was often a flagship and considered the pride of the Royal Navy (she was very big and good-looking for a battleship).

Also of course it makes a lot of sense for your "mission critical" to carry the flag, you can protect your biggest asset and your commander at the same time, so in US Navy carrier groups the massive carriers accomodate the Admiral.

This gives me another idea. Since the Enterprise was the Federation's flagship, would it be a good idea for Picard to be a Rear Admiral but retain command of the ship. That way the ship would have an Admiral as the CO (Picard), a Captain as the XO (Riker), and a Commander as the Second Officer (Data)?

From what I know, most real life navies have an Admiral on the flagship, commanding a task force usually. However, the flagship itself has it's own captain, whose responsibility is for that one ship, not the task force.

In modern parlance isn't a flag ship simply a ship which carries a flag officer. In which case Picard had to be an Admiral for the Enterprise to be a flagship.

 

[USS KG5]

This gives me another idea. Since the Enterprise was the Federation's flagship, would it be a good idea for Picard to be a Rear Admiral but retain command of the ship. That way the ship would have an Admiral as the CO (Picard), a Captain as the XO (Riker), and a Commander as the Second Officer (Data)?

You are forgetting that the rank of "Commander" exists as a lower level of officer than a Captain who can still command a vessel.

Starfleet is a bit weird in that every starship we see, especially early in TNG, seems to have a full Captain in command. Even little baby ships and cargo vessels. This actually MAKES NO SENSE AT ALL. Even if we assume that Starfleet looks after a lot of valuable cargo in a real Navy such a lowly task would probably only rate a Lt. Cmdr.

From what I know, most real life navies have an Admiral on the flagship, commanding a task force usually. However, the flagship itself has it's own captain, whose responsibility is for that one ship, not the task force.

This is so, though of course only applies when a ship is part of a task force. However in Trek this is not quite the same as the starships all seem to be complete units in themselves, not like big fat aircraft carriers, which need little nimble escorts to screen for them.

 

[Gary7]

Reading through these posts it amazes me why Riker wasn't ordered to become a CO of a starship, particuarly during a time of crisis. It was obvious Starfleet and Picard thought he would make a great Captain.
Picard was "requested and required" to take command of the Enterprise-D by Starfleet. Same applied for Captain Jellicoe too, so why was Riker an exception?

I just finished watching this episode again... didn't like it as much as I did back when it first aired. A couple of things really bugged me:

1) The Borg decimated nearly 40 starships @ Wolf359. They couldn't just take out the Enterprise? Picard was assimilated. There was no need to allow the vessel to survive, leaving chances for a future encounter. It made no sense for the Borg to continue heading to Earth without first dispatching the partially disabled Enterprise.
2) The Borg aren't dumb... they're over engineered in fact, with redundant systems throughout. A "Sleep" command is simply that... but to end up with a feedback loop that ends up self destructing the vessel? It doesn't make any sense. The Borg would be too good for that. What should have happened is a "sleep lock", Data perpetuating the command. While doing that, the Enterprise could attack without the crew "waking up"... a virtual sitting duck. Destroy it enough until technological remnants are all that remain... enough to study and learn from some of the Borg technology.
3) There was absolutely no cause for worry about Picard dying when disconnected from the Borg. The Borg self-destruct when certain key implants are extracted, but not when out of range from the collective. So, all Dr. Crusher would need to do is bypass the communication pathways so that the implants couldn't transmit the self-destruct mode at the moment of extraction.
4) The Enterprise leaves the Borg cube all too casually... Worf detected an unstable power build-up. Shelby offered the idea of trying to shut it down so that they could salvage the vessel. Nobody talked about imminent self-destruction. Riker has them beam back, the Enterprise takes a leisurely arc past the ship and then suddenly you start seeing the Borg vessel suffering surface explosions.


At the wrap-up, we have a significantly weakened Federation fleet requiring a full year until restored to the levels prior to the Borg attack. Ship captains would be in tremendous need, especially experienced ones. It makes absolutely no sense for Riker to remain on board the Enterprise. He is needed to command another ship! Starfleet could have easily assigned him a commission. It would only make sense. Remaining behind on the Enterprise would be like ending his career.

Personally I would have liked seeing him accept a commission on board another starship, e.g. the Melbourne II. And then we'd have some interesting episodes with two vessels doing exploration together, rather than just the Enterprise alone. Of course, there could be episodes where they are off on other missions, but most of the time they'd meet up for special assignments. It would have made for an interesting dynamic, one hardly seen in other Star Trek series.

 

[Admiral Shran]

HOLY THREAD RESURRECTION BATMAN!

I always thought that Starfleet didn't actually require a person to accept a promotion. If they want to pass on it, they're allowed. Once the promotion is accepted, however, they are required to take it at that point.

 

[JoeZhang]

I always thought that Starfleet didn't actually require a person to accept a promotion. If they want to pass on it, they're allowed. Once the promotion is accepted, however, they are required to take it at that point.

But in the context of BOBW, doesn't this make Riker look a rather selfish and egotistical fellow? The federation has come under attack and it's fleet has been severely weaken - surely Riker as written would take a command because it's the right thing to do not turn one down because it doesn't personally suit him?

 

[Marten]

HOLY THREAD RESURRECTION BATMAN!

I always thought that Starfleet didn't actually require a person to accept a promotion. If they want to pass on it, they're allowed. Once the promotion is accepted, however, they are required to take it at that point.

In The Measure Of A Man, Data had no choice but to accept a transfer, but the rules for promotions might be different.

 

[Shatnertage]

In-universe, there's no explanation for Riker not taking the promotion, especially since he's always dreamed of being a starship captain and, undeniably, Starfleet needs him.

IRL, of course, he's not going to leave a steady acting job just because the writers wrote his character into a corner.

I've thought that maybe the solution was to bump Picard up to Fleet Captain and make him a sort of "captain emeritus" of the Enterprise, mostly handling diplomacy and offering his council. Captain Riker then handles most of the day-to-day stuff.

Actually, now that I think about it, they tried that on The Office last season.

 

[BillJ]

Post-Best of Both Worlds Riker is a joke... a very bad one. He had achieved and proved that he could handle the Captains' chair. His character arc was complete. Frakes as an actor and Riker as a character weren't integral to the show, not after Best of Both Worlds.

And I say this as a huge pre-Best of Both Worlds Riker fan.

 

[Gary7]

^^ Well said, Bill.


And yeah, I realized that I did resurrect the thread, but at least it was within the year of the first posting! I've seen some brought back across more than a year... scary stuff. :P

 

[Admiral Shran]

I think it would have been better if TPTB had simply stated on the show, in some manner, that Riker was staying on the Enterprise because he didn't want to leave Troi again. I personally think that that is the reason he didn't take his own ship - I mean for crying out loud, he didn't do it until they were finally married.

But, for some reason, they never properly explained this aspect of his character. Why, I have no idea.

 

[BillJ]

I think it would have been better if TPTB had simply stated on the show, in some manner, that Riker was staying on the Enterprise because he didn't want to leave Troi again. I personally think that that is the reason he didn't take his own ship - I mean for crying out loud, he didn't do it until they were finally married.

But, for some reason, they never properly explained this aspect of his character. Why, I have no idea.

That adds a whole new, creepy layer to the Riker character as he was waiting around while she was bangin' other dudes.

You wonder if he was turning on the holodeck cameras whenever Troi took a boy-toy in there.

I actually prefer the explanation given in The Next Generation manga. Riker was kept on board to keep an eye on Picard.

 

[Marten]

I think it would have been better if TPTB had simply stated on the show, in some manner, that Riker was staying on the Enterprise because he didn't want to leave Troi again. I personally think that that is the reason he didn't take his own ship - I mean for crying out loud, he didn't do it until they were finally married.

But, for some reason, they never properly explained this aspect of his character. Why, I have no idea.

That adds a whole new, creepy layer to the Riker character as he was waiting around while she was bangin' other dudes.

You wonder if he was turning on the holodeck cameras whenever Troi took a boy-toy in there.

I actually prefer the explanation given in The Next Generation manga. Riker was kept on board to keep an eye on Picard.

He was not that bad at "bangin'" people himself.

 

[Mr Radioactive]

I think Riker had finally found a family on the Enterprise D. Not just with Troi, but with all of the crew.

It would have been interesting if Patrick Steward hadn't continued on the show, and Riker became the captain. I wonder if shows like Tapestry or The Inner Light could have been made. It is possible because Riker would have needed to have become a more developed character.
How would Riker have handled Darmok, The Inner Light, the Klingon saga, Ensign Ro?

 

[BillJ]

I think Riker had finally found a family on the Enterprise D. Not just with Troi, but with all of the crew.

But when your a military officer in a time of need you don't get the option of staying with family.

 

[Mr Radioactive]

I think Riker had finally found a family on the Enterprise D. Not just with Troi, but with all of the crew.

But when your a military officer in a time of need you don't get the option of staying with family.

How was Riker a military officer in a time of need? The Borg cube had been destroyed.

Shelby makes a comment at the end of BOBW - about how the fleet will be back up in less than a year. This implies that the 39 ships lost represented a large portion of the fleet.
There were no ships for Riker to take command of. The Melbourne was destroyed, and the captains who lost their ships at Wolf 359 had to wait around a year until they got new ones.
I don't think there was an immediate need for Riker to become a captain. Apart for the Klingon civil war - during which Riker did captain a ship - his time on the Enterprise was relatively peaceful.

 

[BillJ]

I think Riker had finally found a family on the Enterprise D. Not just with Troi, but with all of the crew.

But when your a military officer in a time of need you don't get the option of staying with family.

How was Riker a military officer in a time of need? The Borg cube had been destroyed.

Shelby makes a comment at the end of BOBW - about how the fleet will be back up in less than a year. This implies that the 39 ships lost represented a large portion of the fleet.
There were no ships for Riker to take command of. The Melbourne was destroyed, and the captains who lost their ships at Wolf 359 had to wait around a year until they got new ones.
I don't think there was an immediate need for Riker to become a captain. Apart for the Klingon civil war - during which Riker did captain a ship - his time on the Enterprise was relatively peaceful.

Starfleet lost 39 starship captains' and 39 executive officers (plus, at least, one Admiral) at Wolf 359, perhaps some who were slotted to take new commands as they were complete. Starfleet is always building new vessels.

Riker is an experienced command grade officer, which in now in short supply thanks to the Borg. More importantly, Riker is squatting on a position (for fifteen years!) that is used to train future starship captains. When Starfleet needs to replenish its' supply of command grade officers.

 

[Anwar]

Couldn't they just ORDER him to take a command? I mean sure, that'd be pretty ungrateful for all the good that he and the ENT-D crew have done but Command being ungrateful for the good the Enterprise crew's throughout history have done is nothing new...

 

[BillJ]

Couldn't they just ORDER him to take a command? I mean sure, that'd be pretty ungrateful for all the good that he and the ENT-D crew have done but Command being ungrateful for the good the Enterprise crew's throughout history have done is nothing new...

Ungrateful? It's his job.

From The Doomsday Machine

DECKER: Our primary duty is to maintain life and safety of Federation planets. Do you deny that?

Do you think the Federation put Riker through the Academy out of the goodness of their collective hearts?