Rick Berman comments on Ron Jones

[CaptainStoner]

What I'm saying is that if people perceive things a certain way, they're going to judge it accordingly.

The ratings continued to rise for TNG as the music was being diluted. Maybe diluted music was helping to attract the general populace?

It seems more evident that the overall quality of the show improved. An occasionally more present score (outside the theme, which came to mean "TNG" as fans merrily hum the opening notes) is an interesting road not taken.
And I think the meat of the conversation, for me anyway, is not so much the controversy, but the subject of music in film. If you're one who loves the great scores of fantasy sci-fi like Star Wars, Conan, etc. it's hard not to wish for more dynamic scoring for TNG.

 

[Joker]

Wow, what an excellent...

tl;dr

People such as Christopher making insightful comments that respect the man and his contribution to the franchies... great.

The whining numbnuts who have been repeating the same "Berman sux" opinion, passing it off as fact, for 2 decades... crap. Absolutely worthless drivel that isn't worth leaving in a basket next to the toilet.

 

[Harvey]

What I'm saying is that if people perceive things a certain way, they're going to judge it accordingly.

The ratings continued to rise for TNG as the music was being diluted. Maybe diluted music was helping to attract the general populace?

And the music for ENT steadily became more interesting and thematic as the series progressed, during which the ratings declined. I think it's safe to say that most people aren't wrapped up in these sort of details. Still, they're fun to argue about.

 

[Cyke101]

What I'm saying is that if people perceive things a certain way, they're going to judge it accordingly.

The ratings continued to rise for TNG as the music was being diluted. Maybe diluted music was helping to attract the general populace?

Sure, there could be a correlation. There might not be as well. My larger point is that people see what they want to see and that helps them come to certain conclusions.

I'd posit that ratings continued to rise because special FX improved over time as well, that spec script submissions from the public were on the rise allowing for more variety of storytelling, and the cast and crew were gaining a better handle on production. However, I can't say much about how that itself correlates to TNG's ratings trajectory. Above all else, there's still external factors and the fact that the TV market is very fickle and sometimes unpredictable.

The whining numbnuts who have been repeating the same "Berman sux" opinion, passing it off as fact, for 2 decades... crap. Absolutely worthless drivel that isn't worth leaving in a basket next to the toilet.

If it's drivel (and hey, I'm not about to argue with you on that point), then why pay attention to it anyway? Let people complain, and counter only to people whose opinions you respect. Or if you feel the need to engage them to clarify things, then go right ahead. But people are going to talk about a 2 decade old TV show in many, many ways. That's the beauty of an active message board. Generalized complaints about other's generalized complaints is really on the same level of each other, I think.

 

[Expo67]

Rick Berman and Ron Moore certainly are a bad combination when it comes to artistic quality, intergrity, and originality.

Look at Deep Throat Nine(DS9), Voyeur(Voyager), and Enterprise, and you'll get the picture.

Same goes for the remake of Battlestar Galactica and Caprica(Galactica 1980 X 2).

 

[TheGodBen]

tl;dr

Five sentences, broken into two tiny paragraphs, is too long? And I thought I had attention problems.

People such as Christopher making insightful comments that respect the man and his contribution to the franchies... great.

The whining numbnuts who have been repeating the same "Berman sux" opinion, passing it off as fact, for 2 decades... crap. Absolutely worthless drivel that isn't worth leaving in a basket next to the toilet.

What about the people that don't say that Berman sucks but think that the decision to fire Ron Jones was detrimental to the quality of the music on TNG and displayed poor judgement of an, admittedly, non-critical issue?

Rick Berman and Ron Moore certainly are a bad combination when it comes to artistic quality, intergrity, and originality.

Look at Deep Throat Nine(DS9), Voyeur(Voyager), and Enterprise, and you'll get the picture.

Why haven't you included TNG in that list? Berman was the big cheese for most of the show, and Ron Moore was credited with writing more episodes than anyone else on the writing staff.

 

[Expo67]

Okay, look at TNG and the other spin-offs, and you will get the picture.

 

[number6]

The music for Star Trek always reflected the prevailing trends in Hollywood for background music in drama shows. In the eighties we had cheesy synths, followed by more subdued lowkey stuff.. The music in ENT seemed to usher in a return to more up front musical style.

One thing we forget when we talk about Ron Jones (whose music I really didn't care for..but then I thought the music in TNG always sucked) is that we don't know what his ideas were leading to what was ultimately recorded for the episode.. What was his temperament? Was he difficult to work with?? If he was insisting on writing in a certain style that didn't fit with what the producers have in mind, there is no question he would have to be replaced. That's just how it works. Ron Jones did a lot of work for TNG but so did a few others. Maybe those others got the work done on time and with less frequent headbutting. That is a major factor when you are dealing with budget and time constraints. Of Course, for some of you it's easier to blame Rick Berman for a rainy day than to look at reality. The reality was that Ron Jones wrote a lot of scores for TNG and at some point it was time to move on and do other things. That happens.

 

[TheGodBen]

Okay, look at TNG and the other spin-offs, and you will get the picture.

I do get the picture. Or rather, I get my picture.

TNG and DS9 were great shows, both were executive produced by Berman. Piller was lead-writer for most of TNG and early DS9, and Ira Behr took over on DS9 from season 3 on. Ron Moore was a major presence on the writing staff of both shows, but never lead-writer.

Voyager was pretty average and frequently dull. It was executive produced by Berman and had four lead-writers over its run; Michael Piller, Jeri Taylor, Brannon Braga and Kenneth Biller. Ron Moore wrote only one episode in the sixth season before quitting because he hated it.

Enterprise had a weak beginning and a strong finish. Berman executive produced, Braga was lead-writer with Manny Coto de-facto lead-writer during season 4. Moore had nothing to do with it as he was off developing the new BSG.

My picture is that Ron Moore is an awesome guy with great hair. Berman is an okay guy that made some good decisions and some bad decisions, and it can't be denied that he worked his ass off for Star Trek.

 

[Shatnertage]

What gets me is the "greedy" and "lazy" brickbats that are casually tossed at Berman, and just about anyone else who's been in a leadership role with the franchise. Television production seems like a pretty stressful business, and not one for people who just want to make a quick, easy buck.

When it comes down to it, Berman's contributed way more to Star Trek than anyone on this board. I can't say I love every minute of it, but I don't think I can say that about anything I've seen on TV.

I can disagree with Rick Berman's creative choices without disrespecting him as an executive or, even worse, as a human being.

 

[Anwar]

And Moore's own attempts at creating his own franchise have so far all failed. The man can't write an ending for cr@p (which is why all of NuBSG's standalone episodes sucked), which showed in NuBSG's finale. Caprica tanked and so will this new show he's making.

 

[number6]

Most around here regard NuBSG as the Second Coming. I wasn't a fan, but it was successful. Had Moore been hands on for the spinoffs, maybe those shows would have been better. Moore, along with Braga, wrote some of Star Trek's tasties morsels.. I don't think he's a crap writer by any means, but he seems very full of himself.

 

[Anwar]

Moore and Braga are kind of like Steve Ditko: When paired up with someone to keep them in line (Michael Piller/Ira Behr/Stan Lee) they're great. On their own, not so much.

 

[number6]

Moore and Braga are kind of like Steve Ditko: When paired up with someone to keep them in line (Michael Piller/Ira Behr/Stan Lee) they're great. On their own, not so much.

I think both of them have had great moments together and apart..kinda like Lennon/McCartney in terms of their highs and lows.. Though I would looove to seem them both do a project with Stan Lee.. It makes the little fanboi in me squeee.

 

[Ssosmcin]

The ratings continued to rise for TNG as the music was being diluted. Maybe diluted music was helping to attract the general populace?

Actually, and this is key, the general public who were turned onto TNG didn't care. At all. They didn't notice the music, good or bad. Most people don't. TNG attracted people who had no use or patience for the original series, it's the only Trek show to actually do that. I knew a lot of people at work who felt nothing toward Star Trek and had no experience with it aside from TNG. And at no point, first season or seventh, did they ever comment about the music. Except maybe to complain that the opening credits were too long.

When you have the popular audience, when you're a top ten type show, you're not trying to stroke your hardcore fans. They'll always be there. Instead, you're trying to hold onto the larger audience. Whatever fans of Trek or soundtracks think, Rick Berman was 100% correct in his decision because - again - the general public doesn't care about the music. At least, not as music. They care in a subliminal sense, as the score enhances a scene, but they are not running to record stores asking for the latest episode score. Background music is all part of the mix which they either enjoyed or didn't. It's completely out of their minds as soon as the episode ends. So rather than take a chance on alienating his "regular people" by pulling them out of the episode with loud Sol Kaplan like dirges (which, by the way, I love as a film score fan and a Trek fan), he directed the composers to make their music part of the sound design. That was his choice, the show racked up 7 highly rated years, and only passionate fans care about this stuff.

To fans, Rick Berman is worse than Fred Frieberger. To everyone else, he was the producer of the most successful syndicated drama of the era.

 

[number6]

The general public doesn't care about the music. At least, not as music. They care in a subliminal sense, as the score enhances a scene, but they are not running to record stores asking for the latest episode score. Background music is all part of the mix which they either enjoyed or didn't.

Absolutely true!!

To fans, Rick Berman is worse than Fred Frieberger. To everyone else, he was the producer of the most successful syndicated drama of the era.

Not to this fan.. Berman presided over and helped to create two decades of Star Trek, which I enjoyed.. TOS's issues with its third season wasn't due to Friedberger, but due to the lack of GR, Coon, Justman and the slashing of the budget..There were still some good episodes. If you compare Friedberger's reign on TOS to the second series of Space:1999, you'll see the common thread of trying to make a science fiction show simpler and more palatable to a general audience. For that, Freidberger deserves all the blame he gets.. Both shows were enjoyable, but never recreated the spark of what made the earlier shows so good.

You can't say that about Berman. He was hired at the development stage of TNG and took the reigns from GR himself. His only crime was holding everyone to GR's utopic vision as he had it in the 80s. Now we all know his philosophy evolved during the convention years and by the time of PhaseII/TMP/TNG GR's vision for Trek became much more preachy and self-reverential than it ever was in the 60s.
Berman's "vision" for both DS9 and ENT allowed writers to break away from the GR philosophy while still honoring it. ENT and VOY suffered from being on UPN and having the expectations of replicating the success and the formula of TNG which sunk them both on a fan and critical level. I don't blame Berman for that. I blame the network. I blame the network because they did the same thing for the TZ remake and from the uneven programming in an attempt to find a constantly redefined demographic that, frankly, Star Trek was no longer fitting well into.

 

[Warped9]

TNG attracted people who had no use or patience for the original series...

I've always kind of felt that.

 

[Ssosmcin]

To fans, Rick Berman is worse than Fred Frieberger. To everyone else, he was the producer of the most successful syndicated drama of the era.

Not to this fan.. Berman presided over and helped to create two decades of Star Trek, which I enjoyed..

Okay, I guess I should have said "most of the fans who post here." Because, honestly, I don't have a problem with him either. Or Frieberger, for that matter.

 

[Trekker4747]

TNG attracted people who had no use or patience for the original series...

I've always kind of felt that.

Or it attracted people who were growing up in the 80s/90s who found old 60s shows corny and hard to watch, TNG lured you in, got you to watch TOS eventually and then see the charm and magic in it.

 

[number6]

TNG attracted people who had no use or patience for the original series...

I've always kind of felt that.

Or it attracted people who were growing up in the 80s/90s who found old 60s shows corny and hard to watch, TNG lured you in, got you to watch TOS eventually and then see the charm and magic in it.

Or not. There were plenty of TNG fans who didn't grow to like or appreciate TOS at all.. Just like there are a few TOS fans who refuse to accept or enjoy anything post TOS.