Rick Berman comments on Ron Jones

[Expo67]

I remember reading in The Making of Deep Space Nine that Rick Berman's day was so hectic, no schedule could be created to document it. The guy took a lot of grief over the years, but you cannot say he didn't work hard for Star Trek.

If he had worked hard for Star Trek we wouldn't have gotten so many of years of crap (namely on Voyager and Enterprise but only because, as I understand it, Berman mostly ignored DS9.) No he worked hard to line his own wallet through the money the Star Trek name could generate, if fans hadn't gotten increasingly pissed off through Voyager's run and then Enterprise in the way both ignored their own premise, any sense of consistent "reality" within themselves then Berman would still be making money today on another series still shilling out crap.

Berman wanted things and bland as possible to make it as "sell-able" as possible. He didn't care if it was quality product just that it was product. Sort of like McDonald's, they know their food is crap and people can get a better cheeseburger in countless other places but, hey, McDonald's is everywhere and fairly cheap!

That's what Berman did to Star Trek through much of the last couple seasons of TNG and on through Enterprise, he turned Star Trek into McDonalds. And, again, this excludes DS9 which managed to pull off doing its own thing while Berman and Braga decided to do what the fuck ever episodically on Voyager.

"What? Why of course it doesn't make sense that they've lost 20 shuttles now or that this the umpteenth chance they've gotten to get home! You think we're making serious TV here?! This show is episodic it'll make sense within its own context and doesn't need to fit in with the whole, besides in syndication this might be shown before all of those other times so fuck it. Do whatever no matter how little sense it makes!"

That was Trek's biggest downfall, again thanks to B&B more than anyone else. Not taking it's own damn premise seriously and treating it as reality. If you watched an episode of some night-time drama and they did something completely off-the-wall that was out of line with everything that came before you'd be pretty upset. Why should Trek just because it takes place centuries in the future in space with aliens be any different?

Take the premise seriously.

Trekker definately echoes some of the same thoughts that I have on Berman's mishandling of Star Trek. If Berman and the execs at Paramount had been smart enough, they should have listened to the fans and done their homework. Let alone have Majel Barrett run things.

 

[gottacook]

I'm reminded of my first viewing of Trials and Tribble-ations, specifically the rather lackluster 'action' music during the bar brawl.

Some of the action was a bit stilted to begin with, due to the composites with TOS footage (e.g. the chair being thrown past O'Brien), but the score, while making some small efforts, was simply far too restrained for my tastes. The lack of musical energy actually drew me out of the scene and remains, to this day, one of my only dissatisfactions with this otherwise excellent episode.

Yes, I felt exactly the same way about that scene. Something rhythmic, fergodsake, was needed. How could the DS9 producers not know that?

 

[Harvey]

Or, at least, music that fit the tone of the scene. It's supposed to be a comedy, no? Instead, it features the same action cue that plays over every action scene in twenty-fourth century Trek (and a good portion of twenty-second century Trek, too), which is awfully heavy and dramatic for the material.

 

[Nightdiamond]

I notice the 3rd season TNG scores seem to fit the scenes perfectly.

They were alive and made the episodes seem alive and vibrant too.

I think subconsciously those scores had to have some effect.

How can you not remember the "We have engaged the Borg" or the cliffhanger part without the music?

It was so riveting, that when it was gone, fans noticed the absence.

The same with T.O.S.

There's an episode called "The Empath". The music is simply beautiful.

I barely even know what the episode is about, but I remember the music.

 

[Cyke101]

We talk about how music can get dated, but I'm constantly reminded of how musical trends keep repeating themselves: the resurgence of baroque, the focus of the guitar, the chorus in Best of Both Worlds setting off a trend itself, 60s' jazz, etc. etc. Heck, there's a trend of electronic music that's built on old 80s Nintendo music files. Who knows if the music of 60s TOS, in some fashion, makes a comeback of some kind? Sure it probably won't be exact, but music is a fickle beast.

 

[rafterman1701]

I remember the music to Best of Both Worlds. I don't remember any music to Voyager except the theme. When I think of shows like Battlestar Galactica or Lost, I think of how awesome the scores are and how well they compliment the scenes while also being great on their own. I can't recall the music to most Trek TV. Rick's entitled to his opinion, but he's definitely from a different time when it comes to music for TV.

 

[JarodRussell]

I'm reminded of my first viewing of Trials and Tribble-ations, specifically the rather lackluster 'action' music during the bar brawl.

Some of the action was a bit stilted to begin with, due to the composites with TOS footage (e.g. the chair being thrown past O'Brien), but the score, while making some small efforts, was simply far too restrained for my tastes. The lack of musical energy actually drew me out of the scene and remains, to this day, one of my only dissatisfactions with this otherwise excellent episode.

See, here you have an example how mixing two different "eras" doesn't work. Music from the 90s for footage from the 60s. It also works the other way round. Music from TOS would have been awful for a normal episode of TNG, DS9, VOY, etc...

 

[Trek Survivor]

Of course he has the right to earn a salary, nothing at wrong with any of that. My problem is with him earning a salary in spite of shilling out a shit product. It seemed like he was going to get paid no matter what he did so he had no incentive to do a good job.

Stop giving your opinion as if it is some sort of fact!!!

It is your OPINION that Berman did a poor job (and is the popular bandwagon Berman-bashing jump on for lots of people on here).

It certainly isn't fact.

I haven't seen enough of Voyager or Enterprise to comment, but in MY OPINION (and many others) Berman did a great job with TNG and DS9. And before all you whiners interject that "bleh! Berman had nothing to do with Ds9! Behr FTW!!!" - of course he had stuff to do with the show, not just co-creating it, but actively involved in production for seven years.

I am happy with a critique of Berman's work and decisions, but honestly, this "Berman is the bogeyman! Without him Trek would still be on tv and be a million times better!!" irrational stupidity really has to stop...

(and for the record, without Berman, it's doubtful TNG would've made it to a third or fourth year, never mind all the sequel shows).

 

[Avon]

i have the opinion that berman was an idiot.

 

[bullethead]

I remember reading in The Making of Deep Space Nine that Rick Berman's day was so hectic, no schedule could be created to document it. The guy took a lot of grief over the years, but you cannot say he didn't work hard for Star Trek.

If he had worked hard for Star Trek we wouldn't have gotten so many of years of crap (namely on Voyager and Enterprise but only because, as I understand it, Berman mostly ignored DS9.) No he worked hard to line his own wallet through the money the Star Trek name could generate, if fans hadn't gotten increasingly pissed off through Voyager's run and then Enterprise in the way both ignored their own premise, any sense of consistent "reality" within themselves then Berman would still be making money today on another series still shilling out crap.

Berman wanted things and bland as possible to make it as "sell-able" as possible. He didn't care if it was quality product just that it was product. Sort of like McDonald's, they know their food is crap and people can get a better cheeseburger in countless other places but, hey, McDonald's is everywhere and fairly cheap!

That's what Berman did to Star Trek through much of the last couple seasons of TNG and on through Enterprise, he turned Star Trek into McDonalds. And, again, this excludes DS9 which managed to pull off doing its own thing while Berman and Braga decided to do what the fuck ever episodically on Voyager.

"What? Why of course it doesn't make sense that they've lost 20 shuttles now or that this the umpteenth chance they've gotten to get home! You think we're making serious TV here?! This show is episodic it'll make sense within its own context and doesn't need to fit in with the whole, besides in syndication this might be shown before all of those other times so fuck it. Do whatever no matter how little sense it makes!"

That was Trek's biggest downfall, again thanks to B&B more than anyone else. Not taking it's own damn premise seriously and treating it as reality. If you watched an episode of some night-time drama and they did something completely off-the-wall that was out of line with everything that came before you'd be pretty upset. Why should Trek just because it takes place centuries in the future in space with aliens be any different?

Take the premise seriously.

Trekker definately echoes some of the same thoughts that I have on Berman's mishandling of Star Trek. If Berman and the execs at Paramount had been smart enough, they should have listened to the fans and done their homework. Let alone have Majel Barrett run things.

If you read Micheal Piller's book Fade In: The Writing of Star Trek: Insurrection, pretty much everyone involved in that fiasco actually had some knowledge of Trek, including the (IIRC) president of Paramount. They still ended up putting out a pretty bad movie despite everyone trying to make it the best they could.

 

[Balrog]

Berman was always an idiot when it came to the use of music in a sci-fi show.

He still is.

 

[JarodRussell]

i have the opinion that berman was an idiot.

Berman was always an idiot when it came to the use of music in a sci-fi show.

He still is.

Kids, stop acting stupid. Just because he has a different taste he's an idiot? What the hell?

 

[TheGodBen]

It's not a matter of bad taste, it's a matter of flawed perception. Berman may have excellent taste in music, he may go home every evening and listen to Ron Jones' scores on an endless loop because he enjoys the music. But it was his perception that Ron Jones' work was overpowering and a poor fit for TNG, and that was a perception that I, and most people that pay attention to musical scores, think was utterly flawed.

I don't think that Berman was an idiot, but in this case I do believe that he is in the wrong.

 

[Warped9]

It's a matter of perspective. For my taste he was an idiot in this regard because he made a decision that was detrimental to the final product. Instead of utilizing music that would enhance stories he opted for music that served as a wet blanket.

 

[JarodRussell]

Flawed perception, I like that term. Makes it seem like there are actual facts that someone perceives in a flawed way.

 

[TheGodBen]

Perhaps not facts, but there is most definitely a consensus among those that care about such things that firing Ron Jones was a bad move. It is considered such a big mistake that 20 years later we're still discussing it, and it was the first fan question put to him in an interview.

From the same interview, Berman said this:
"I had absolutely no thoughts about putting my own imprint on Star Trek. My interest was to continue to try to do the best work that I could and to hire the best people that I could and to continue on with what Gene set out to do with TNG. It was my hope that the direction we went in with DS9"" – and onward with the other shows -- was something he would have thought was the right direction to go. I don’t see myself, nor have I ever seen myself, as a visionary who wanted to put his ideas onto the show."

So, if he wasn't trying to put his own vision onto the show, if he was mainly concerned with getting the best people available to work on the show, then why did he fire a guy whose work was popular with the fans but not with Rick Berman himself?

 

[RandyS]

Ugh, not this again.

Why is "dated" bad?? I honestly don't get this.

Of course TOS music sounds like it was made in the 1960's. IT WAS. That's precisely WHY it was good.

"Dated" is NOT a bad thing.

"Not this again"? Some people just don't like how the TOS music sounds, that's all. You say that TOS' music sounding like it was made in the '60's is what makes it good. I dislike TOS' music, and (probably not coincidentally) I dislike a lot of music from the '60's. So to me, that "it sounds like it's from the '60's" aspect is part of what makes it bad.

"Dated" IS a bad thing, isn't it? Doesn't "dated" generally mean "clearly identifiable as a product of its time" in a way that sticks out and distracts from the other qualities of the production? At least, in this kind of context (discussing TV shows or movies), I don't think I've ever seen it used to mean anything other than that.

Something being dated is not a bad thing. Yes, it means what you claim it to, but you're seeing that as a negative, and it isn't. It in no way detracts from anything.

Just because something's old, doesn't mean you throw it away. EVERYTHING, no matter what it is, is a product of it's time, and hating it on that basis alone shows both ignorance and stupidity. Not to mention snobbery.

And yeah, everybody entitled to their opinion. This just happens to be mine.

 

[Saito S]

Ugh, not this again.

Why is "dated" bad?? I honestly don't get this.

Of course TOS music sounds like it was made in the 1960's. IT WAS. That's precisely WHY it was good.

"Dated" is NOT a bad thing.

"Not this again"? Some people just don't like how the TOS music sounds, that's all. You say that TOS' music sounding like it was made in the '60's is what makes it good. I dislike TOS' music, and (probably not coincidentally) I dislike a lot of music from the '60's. So to me, that "it sounds like it's from the '60's" aspect is part of what makes it bad.

"Dated" IS a bad thing, isn't it? Doesn't "dated" generally mean "clearly identifiable as a product of its time" in a way that sticks out and distracts from the other qualities of the production? At least, in this kind of context (discussing TV shows or movies), I don't think I've ever seen it used to mean anything other than that.

Something being dated is not a bad thing. Yes, it means what you claim it to, but you're seeing that as a negative, and it isn't. It in no way detracts from anything.

Just because something's old, doesn't mean you throw it away. EVERYTHING, no matter what it is, is a product of it's time, and hating it on that basis alone shows both ignorance and stupidity. Not to mention snobbery.

And yeah, everybody entitled to their opinion. This just happens to be mine.

You misunderstood. I made two distinct points in my post.

Point A: I don't like TOS' music. That's just my opinion. As you say, everyone is entitled to one; the only reason I used the wording that I did is because your post came across a little bit like "Not this crap again! Why don't people get that TOS' music wasn't bad??" But that said, if you think TOS' music is amazing, hey, great. What prompted me to post was this sense of disgust at the idea that anyone could "not see" why it was great, as if these were facts being discussed. We all say "I don't see how you could think that about thing X" from time to time, so if that's all this was, then fine. Really, it wasn't meant to be as big a deal as it seems to be.

I never said I disliked it because it was old. "This music is old" and "This music sounds dated" do not mean the same thing (more on wording below). As I mentioned in my other post, there is very little music from the 60s that I REALLY like more than "it's ok" (in fact, that's true of music from just about any time prior to the 80's, barring some classical). I don't dislike it because it's from a different era, I just don't like how it sounds.

And, we of course all have our particular areas of Trek that we love and don't wish to see trashed, but if I tried to jump in to defend my favorite shows any time I saw someone on this board making snide or unkind remarks about DS9 or TNG... well, that'd be a full time job.

Point B: I never said that if something is old, you should throw it away. My point was about the wording. "Dated" has a negative implication.

"Old" doesn't imply good or bad; it's the neutral term. It simply means it has been around a long time. "Classic" is a positive term; something that may be old - perhaps VERY old within its genre or medium - but is still awesome. "Dated" is something that shows its advanced age in a noticeable - and generally negative - way.

The distinctions between those three words that I just described may not technically line up with their dictionary definitions, but for "classic" and "dated" in particular, in the context of discussing the merits of TV shows (or movies, or... any entertainment medium, really), that is very nearly the ONLY way I ever see them used.

 

[Saito S]

Perhaps not facts, but there is most definitely a consensus among those that care about such things that firing Ron Jones was a bad move. It is considered such a big mistake that 20 years later we're still discussing it, and it was the first fan question put to him in an interview.

From the same interview, Berman said this:
"I had absolutely no thoughts about putting my own imprint on Star Trek. My interest was to continue to try to do the best work that I could and to hire the best people that I could and to continue on with what Gene set out to do with TNG. It was my hope that the direction we went in with DS9"" – and onward with the other shows -- was something he would have thought was the right direction to go. I don’t see myself, nor have I ever seen myself, as a visionary who wanted to put his ideas onto the show."

So, if he wasn't trying to put his own vision onto the show, if he was mainly concerned with getting the best people available to work on the show, then why did he fire a guy whose work was popular with the fans but not with Rick Berman himself?

This is very well put, and sums up how I feel about Berman's position perfectly.

As I have hammered in my own posts in this thread, how "good" music is is entirely subjective. I'm sure that somewhere, there's at least one person who LOVES all the music from TNG s4-7, and thinks Ron Jones sucks. Nothing wrong with that, but for Berman, as the show runner, there are a number of factors that should be taken into account. Wasn't BoBW praised for its music not just in hindsight, but soon after it originally aired? Why would you get rid of that composer? Makes no sense.

 

[Dac]

I see were Berman is coming from, and for his vision of Trek, music was almost non-existent. But after watching BSG, I can't see his argument. Loud "flamboyant" music doesn't have to drown out the action (Like Doctor Who) but can definitely accompany it. Case in point, Prelude to War from BSG's "Pegasus" episode. One of if not my favorite pieces of soundtrack music ever, and it was blaring in that scene, but because it was full of drama it worked.

But I guess Star Trek TNG was rarely filled with that kind of be all end all drama, with the possible exception of The Best of Both Worlds. And as people have said, that is THE episode for incidental music in Trek.

I'm not sure if he forgot his viewpoint on the subject though, or because a Borg ep warranted it, but "Regeneration" from Enterprise had some pretty good and noticeable music throughout. Certainly some of the best Enterprise had to offer. I don't think it quite reached the heights BoBW did though, so that's probably why it was OK'd.