Rewriting Picard from the start

[Victoria]

I would have thought that old Admirals turning up with ideas of what SF should or should not be doing could have been not uncommon. SF would have had some kind of protocol for dealing with it. The Admiral would have had a pleasant meeting with someone who listens carefully, says they'll put the idea to "them", gives them coffee and and a tour of bits of the premises and waves goodbye. Admiral goes away feeling someone's listened. Idea gets onto a list which gets an eyes over, is rejected...

I would not have expected the Admiral to be dealt with by someone rude and sweary. Whatever the background, that's impolite and unnecessary. In this case, it's even worse. The "sheer fucking hubris" is a standalone (feels almost as though the PTB wanted something that could be easily cut for mainstream television) so it doesn't flow. Had it been part of a sentence ("Coming here and telling us what to do...that's SFH..." or similar) it would have felt less like "hey! look at us being daring!" and more natural.

 

[James Cole]

Changing showrunners is very different from throwing out every single script after the first two episodes. You're talking about scripts that have already been written, scripts in the process of being written, scripts that have already been shot, and scripts that are in the process of being shot. You can't just set that kind of money on fire at that point. If you want to go in a different direction, you would have needed that ship to change course quite a few steps earlier.

I mean, that did kinda happen with the massive reshoots and retooling of early season 2 of Discovery, but again this is a pie in the sky hypothetical thread...

 

[fireproof78]

I would not have expected the Admiral to be dealt with by someone rude and sweary. Whatever the background, that's impolite and unnecessary.

Unnecessary? I just don't get this. One, having seen people in the military interact with they are often far more rude than people would generally expect. Except, it's not even really rude. It's blunt and matter of fact. Picard trashes Starfleet then asks for help?

So, Clancy should have gone "I am disinclined to acquiesce to your request." Then gone on a long speech about Picard and his recent attitude towards Starfleet. The counter to the Picard speech.

 

[Weyoun 251]

Unnecessary? I just don't get this. One, having seen people in the military interact with they are often far more rude than people would generally expect. Except, it's not even really rude. It's blunt and matter of fact. Picard trashes Starfleet then asks for help?

So, Clancy should have gone "I am disinclined to acquiesce to your request." Then gone on a long speech about Picard and his recent attitude towards Starfleet. The counter to the Picard speech.

Season 1 or 2 TNG would have 100% had that sentence

You look at later TNG/DS9 (Shelby and Nechayev, maybe even Ross) and I could fully imagine them firing back at Picard and maybe for that era it would have been "sheer bloody hubris" but those characters in streaming era where you can speak with a bite of bite they would all have suited the phrase.

 

[El Maestro]

My things are my usual hobby horses, roughly sketched out as:

- Reduce or eliminate the seminal/essential/dramatic number of things that happened to JLP OFFSCREEN between NEM and PIC that resulted in his diminished state at the beginning of S1, and have the events of S1 be the things that cause him to doubt Starfleet/UFP whatever so we see it and aren't just told about it. The end of S1 should be what S3 was: the TNG crew and the E-D come back and they all save the day and in the process JLP finds renewed faith in everything. The TNG crew goes off into the sunset just as happily as they did at the end of S3.

- S2 would be when we introduce new people/settings like Rios, etc. There would still be the odd one-off TNG or other series character appearance but because the impulse to erase the stain of NEM was satisfied in my S1 they don't need to take over.

- S3 is when JLP's Irumodic Syndrome finally gets ready to kill him so he dies heroically and stays dead. No golem.

- Random notes include: no S2 time travel shenanigans; deal with Data essentially as they did in real S1 (I'd have him back but only temporarily and at the end of my fake S1 he gets to go out on his own terms and give his friends, especially Geordi, closure) and no more Soong stuff after this; no secret Picard/Bev love child; 7 could still be a part of all of it and even captain the E-F at the end; Q could appear in S3; etc....

 

[Dukhat]

Season 1 or 2 TNG would have 100% had that sentence

You look at later TNG/DS9 (Shelby and Nechayev, maybe even Ross) and I could fully imagine them firing back at Picard and maybe for that era it would have been "sheer bloody hubris" but those characters in streaming era where you can speak with a bite of bite they would all have suited the phrase.

We already have an admiral that we're supposed to dislike because she's against Picard. The F-bomb was there because they could do it. It added nothing more to the scene that a Nechayev-like bitchy undertone couldn't have done in a more effective manner.

Gratuitous swearing is like gratuitous nudity. It's there because you can do it, but it's unnecessary to the plot in any meaningful way and usually only exists for shock value.

 

[Weyoun 251]

We already have an admiral that we're supposed to dislike because she's against Picard. The F-bomb was there because they could do it. It added nothing more to the scene that a Nechayev-like bitchy undertone couldn't have done in a more effective manner.

Gratuitous swearing is like gratuitous nudity. It's there because you can do it, but it's unnecessary to the plot in any meaningful way and usually only exists for shock value.

There may be an element of cultural sensibilities about this in that I know English attitudes to words like "fuck" are different than it can be in USA - even in professional settings it isn't uncommon where I've worked (and these are in accountancy practices big and small as opposed to "working class jobs" which are depicted as being rougher) to punctuate and emphasise things with words like "fuck".

Gratuitous for me would be "and the sheer fucking hubris of this c*!t over here asking for all kinds of shit. Oi! Picard! You baldy t@!t! You look like a shit Howard Webb"

I don't fully buy the "we get to say fuck" arguement in the titillating way because they did say "shit" on TNG (well merde - shit was said in at least two of the films though) which followed on from "bastard" and "shit" in the TOS films anyway, and saw "son of a bitch" at the least used offhandedly in Enterprise.

It is just a case of them moving with the standards of TV at the time I think

 

[Dukhat]

There may be an element of cultural sensibilities about this in that I know English attitudes to words like "fuck" are different than it can be in USA - even in professional settings it isn't uncommon where I've worked (and these are in accountancy practices big and small as opposed to "working class jobs" which are depicted as being rougher) to punctuate and emphasise things with words like "fuck".

Gratuitous for me would be "and the sheer fucking hubris of this c*!t over here asking for all kinds of shit. Oi! Picard! You baldy t@!t! You look like a shit Howard Webb"

I don't fully buy the "we get to say fuck" arguement in the titillating way because they did say "shit" on TNG (well merde - shit was said in at least two of the films though) which followed on from "bastard" and "shit" in the TOS films anyway, and saw "son of a bitch" at the least used offhandedly in Enterprise.

It is just a case of them moving with the standards of TV at the time I think

The reason why the word 'fuck' is referred to as the 'f-bomb' (while shit isn't referred to as the 's-bomb' or bastard as the 'b-bomb') is precisely because it has more of an implication of usage precisely for artificial shock value and offense. It's one of those words that are especially jarring when used in conversation at inopportune moments, which was why it was chosen for Admiral Potty Mouth to say.

 

[Weyoun 251]

The reason why the word 'fuck' is referred to as the 'f-bomb' (while shit isn't referred to as the 's-bomb' or bastard as the 'b-bomb') is precisely because it has more of an implication of usage precisely for artificial shock value and offense. It's one of those words that are especially jarring when used in conversation at inopportune moments, which was why it was chosen for Admiral Potty Mouth to say.

I agree the it can do but you can equally get an exasperated or even humours "oh for fuck's sake" and with true invective call someone a "bastard".

Tone and context have a huge element but also the age, background, experiences etc of the listener

Apologies to the board as a whole for making assumptions based on what may be becoming outdated cultural perceptions but I'd be willing to bet a fair wedge on the idea that if we did a poll of the board then those from UK/Aus would find it less offensive/gratuitous than those from the US (statistically, there will be plenty from all round the world who did and did not find it unnecessary)

 

[Dukhat]

PIC is a US production, and I am speaking in an American context. I can't speak for the sensibilities of other countries.

 

[Weyoun 251]

PIC is a US production, and I am speaking in an American context. I can't speak for the sensibilities of other countries.

Agreed (for the most part - God I must come across as a disagreeable arse at times - but maybe Patrick Stewart's influence and background gave it a "less" American style to it?) and I have no doubt if I'd been brought up in the same environment I'd be more inclined to your view so want to make very clear I haven't intended to say that you are wrong so much as from my perspective it isn't a problem but I understand why others wouldn't like it.

Apologies if it did come across as trying to do so - this is an entirely subjective matter so both of us are as right as each other, just from different points of view

 

[Dukhat]

Agreed (for the most part - God I must come across as a disagreeable arse at times...

No you don't.

Apologies if it did come across as trying to do so - this is an entirely subjective matter so both of us are as right as each other, just from different points of view

No apology necessary. We are having a civilized discussion. Cheers

 

[fireproof78]

Apologies to the board as a whole for making assumptions based on what may be becoming outdated cultural perceptions but I'd be willing to bet a fair wedge on the idea that if we did a poll of the board then those from UK/Aus would find it less offensive/gratuitous than those from the US (statistically, there will be plenty from all round the world who did and did not find it unnecessary)

I'm an American. I've worked in primarily white collared jobs.

I have heard fuck very often in professional settings from those above me and in positions of authority.

I do not get the offense, especially in regards to a paramilitary setting, which the multiple members of my family who have served in various branches have attested that swearing is an artform in the service. I feel more that the offense comes from it being in Star Trek, than any cultural background.

 

[Weyoun 251]

No you don't.

No apology necessary. We are having a civilized discussion. Cheers

Much appreciated mate

I'm an American. I've worked in primarily white collared jobs.

I have heard fuck very often in professional settings from those above me and in positions of authority.

I do not get the offense, especially in regards to a paramilitary setting, which the multiple members of my family who have served in various branches have attested that swearing is an artform in the service. I feel more that the offense comes from it being in Star Trek, than any cultural background.

Fair point - obviously with this being a primarily US populated board then odds are there will be more dissenters from a US background which coupled with me being more aware of UK sensibilities has caused me to apply a causation where there is at most a correlation

I just look back at the history of Trek and the language used and it seems, to me, like it has always nudged the line of whatever it could get away with over the years (plenty of swearing across the TOS films - especially TVH an TUC), gradually escalating language in TNG through to Ent.

Your comment "swearing is an artform" is very much how is see it. You can bludgeon someone to death by saying "bloody" over and over or you can create great masterpieces of emotion and feeling and emphasis with "fuck", "shit", and many more of the stronger words

 

[fireproof78]

I just look back at the history of Trek and the language used and it seems, to me, like it has always nudged the line of whatever it could get away with over the years (plenty of swearing across the TOS films - especially TVH an TUC), gradually escalating language in TNG through to Ent.

Agreed. This is how I view it.

I even find Picard's line of "not good enough, damn it, not good enough" to be more offensive and "shocking" than "sheer fucking hubris." It's not the term but how it is delivered in the context.

 

[Dukhat]

I even find Picard's line of "not good enough, damn it, not good enough" to be more offensive and "shocking" than "sheer fucking hubris." It's not the term but how it is delivered in the context.

I feel the exact opposite. The context of Potty Mouth's line is far more a product of a 'we can say 'fuck' now!' mentality than Picard's line remotely was.

 

[fireproof78]

I feel the exact opposite. The context of Potty Mouth's line is far more a product of a 'we can say 'fuck' now!' mentality than Picard's line remotely was.

Rewatching MASH recently and they have Hawkeye say "Son of a bitch." It stands out because at the time it wasn't done on TV. It doesn't stand out because it's offensive.

I feel the same here. Yes, it's because they can, but it works in context for me as well.

Mileage will vary.

And just for kicks and giggles:

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[drt]

I feel more that the offense comes from it being in Star Trek, than any cultural background.

This is my sense as well, 24th century evolved humanity is supposed to respond with a Shakespearean (or some other public domain intellectual property) erudite retort, not crass profanity.

 

[Weyoun 251]

This is my sense as well, 24th century evolved humanity is supposed to respond with a Shakespearean (or some other public domain intellectual property) erudite retort, not crass profanity.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/2015/4/23/8479871/shakespeare-dirty-jokes

The memo for many may have been missed then about how crass Shakespeare was...

And in the spirit of that, the Google search to find that link was "Shakespeare dick jokes"

See also Chaucer

 

[Dukhat]

I stand by what I wrote.