Revisiting Star Trek TOS/TAS...

[Warped9]

Folks here may be aware that I'm earlier revisited TNG. Awile and somewhere upthread there someone inquired about comparing what I find with TOS with what I found in TNG in terms of rating.

Well at this point I can only look at TOS' first two seasons since I'm only about midpoint of season three, but lets take a look anyway.


Seasonal comparisons:

Good to Excellent
TNG Season 1 = 16% (4 episodes)
TNG Season 2 = 40.9% (9 episodes)
TNG Season 3 = 42.3% (11 episodes)
TNG Season 4 = 42.3% (11 episodes)
TNG Season 5 = 34.6% (9 episodes)
TNG Season 6 = 30.7% (8 episodes)
TNG Season 7 = 15.3% (4 episodes)
TOS Season 1 = 82.7% (24 episodes)
TOS Season 2 = 61.5% (16 episodes)

Fair
TNG Season 1 = 36% (9 episodes)
TNG Season 2 = 22.7% (5 episodes)
TNG Season 3 = 30.7% (8 episodes)
TNG Season 4 = 26.9% (7 episodes)
TNG Season 5 = 34.6% (9 episodes)
TNG Season 6 = 34.6% (9 episodes)
TNG Season 7 = 34.6% (9 episodes)
TOS Season 1 = 17.2% (5 episodes)
TOS Season 2 = 26.9% (7 episodes)

Poor to Bad
TNG Season 1 = 48% (12 episodes)
TNG Season 2 = 36.3% (8 episodes)
TNG Season 3 = 26.9% (7 episodes)
TNG Season 4 = 30.7% (8 episodes)
TNG Season 5 = 30.7% (8 episodes)
TNG Season 6 = 34.6% (9 episodes)
TNG Season 7 = 50% (13 episodes)
TOS Season 1 = 0% (0 episodes)
TOS Season 2 = 11.5% (3 episodes)


Granted it has to be acknowledged that I'm primarily a TOS fan and it's my favourite Trek series. Still I did work my way through TNG and found quite a bit of it that I enjoyed. That said I do find this interesting.

First season TOS batted it out of the park and no season of TNG, not even the high water seasons three and four, could match TOS' first season in terms of the percentage of Good-Excellent episodes. And even though TOS slips in some measure in its second season that, too, still exceeded any of TNG's seasons in terms of Good-Excellent episodes. Also note that TOS' second season was equal in length (episode wise) to the average TNG season (26 episodes).

In terms of Fair rated episodes first season TOS had fewer than any season of TNG with TNG Season 2 coming closest. TOS' second season fared a bit worse and matches TNG's fourth season.

In terms of Poor-Bad episodes TOS does very well again because I didn't find any of TOS' first season episodes to be Poor or Bad and second season had very few real disappointments. And no TNG season came close to having similarly few disappointing episodes.

Of course, I've yet to finish TOS' Season 3 and to see what awaits there.

And, really, it all doesn't matter much because it really depends on what you like.

 

[RAMA]

Folks here may be aware that I'm earlier revisited TNG. Awile and somewhere upthread there someone inquired about comparing what I find with TOS with what I found in TNG in terms of rating.

Well at this point I can only look at TOS' first two seasons since I'm only about midpoint of season three, but lets take a look anyway.


Seasonal comparisons:

Good to Excellent
TNG Season 1 = 16% (4 episodes)
TNG Season 2 = 40.9% (9 episodes)
TNG Season 3 = 42.3% (11 episodes)
TNG Season 4 = 42.3% (11 episodes)
TNG Season 5 = 34.6% (9 episodes)
TNG Season 6 = 30.7% (8 episodes)
TNG Season 7 = 15.3% (4 episodes)
TOS Season 1 = 82.7% (24 episodes)
TOS Season 2 = 61.5% (16 episodes)

Fair
TNG Season 1 = 36% (9 episodes)
TNG Season 2 = 22.7% (5 episodes)
TNG Season 3 = 30.7% (8 episodes)
TNG Season 4 = 26.9% (7 episodes)
TNG Season 5 = 34.6% (9 episodes)
TNG Season 6 = 34.6% (9 episodes)
TNG Season 7 = 34.6% (9 episodes)
TOS Season 1 = 17.2% (5 episodes)
TOS Season 2 = 26.9% (7 episodes)

Poor to Bad
TNG Season 1 = 48% (12 episodes)
TNG Season 2 = 36.3% (8 episodes)
TNG Season 3 = 26.9% (7 episodes)
TNG Season 4 = 30.7% (8 episodes)
TNG Season 5 = 30.7% (8 episodes)
TNG Season 6 = 34.6% (9 episodes)
TNG Season 7 = 50% (13 episodes)
TOS Season 1 = 0% (0 episodes)
TOS Season 2 = 11.5% (3 episodes)


Granted it has to be acknowledged that I'm primarily a TOS fan and it's my favourite Trek series. Still I did work my way through TNG and found quite a bit of it that I enjoyed. That said I do find this interesting.

First season TOS batted it out of the park and no season of TNG, not even the high water seasons three and four, could match TOS' first season in terms of the percentage of Good-Excellent episodes. And even though TOS slips in some measure in its second season that, too, still exceeded any of TNG's seasons in terms of Good-Excellent episodes. Also note that TOS' second season was equal in length (episode wise) to the average TNG season (26 episodes).

In terms of Fair rated episodes first season TOS had fewer than any season of TNG with TNG Season 2 coming closest. TOS' second season fared a bit worse and matches TNG's fourth season.

In terms of Poor-Bad episodes TOS does very well again because I didn't find any of TOS' first season episodes to be Poor or Bad and second season had very few real disappointments. And no TNG season came close to having similarly few disappointing episodes.

Of course, I've yet to finish TOS' Season 3 and to see what awaits there.

And, really, it all doesn't matter much because it really depends on what you like.

Wildly skewed but interesting

 

[Warped9]

“Day Of The Dove” ****

The Enterprise crew and Klingons are locked in deadly combat while the ship hurtles out of the galaxy.

Essentially another bottle show, but a good one. Still, I remember really liking this more. It's still good, but occasionally I find some of the acting a bit wanting or not nuanced enough.

It's essentially an antiwar story, and you can fill in the warring parties dependent on your interpretation. It basically boils down to anyone who has ever asked themselves, "Just what the hell are we fighting about anyway?"

There are a couple of continuity blips in this. Kang says the Klingons have honoured the treaty to the letter---I guess he didn't know about the events in "A Private Little War," which is quite possible because the Klingon High Command likely wouldn't inform all of its personnel of its operations. The other blip is in regards to Koloth ("The Trouble With Tribbles") claiming their ships didn't have "nonessentials" aboard, meaning female personnel. And yet here we see at least two Klingon females as crew and one is Kang's Science Officer and wife, Mara. She certainly wasn't as full of bluster as the Duras sisters. Mind you a TNG era Klingon might well have kicked Chekov's ass down the corridor.

And speaking of Klingons I really liked Michael Ansara's portrayal of Kang here. After all the sorry excuses of the second season (including Koloth and Korax) Kang is the best Klingon to come along next to John Collicos as Kor in "Errand Of Mercy."

The alien entity here is just a patch of swirling light that changes intensity of colour, but then again many later Trek episodes had entities that were little more than blobs or blurs of coloured light as well.

In the end I quite enjoyed this, but candidly I think it could have been a bit better.

 

[Warped9]

Folks here may be aware that I'm earlier revisited TNG. Awile and somewhere upthread there someone inquired about comparing what I find with TOS with what I found in TNG in terms of rating.

Well at this point I can only look at TOS' first two seasons since I'm only about midpoint of season three, but lets take a look anyway.


Seasonal comparisons:

Good to Excellent
TNG Season 1 = 16% (4 episodes)
TNG Season 2 = 40.9% (9 episodes)
TNG Season 3 = 42.3% (11 episodes)
TNG Season 4 = 42.3% (11 episodes)
TNG Season 5 = 34.6% (9 episodes)
TNG Season 6 = 30.7% (8 episodes)
TNG Season 7 = 15.3% (4 episodes)
TOS Season 1 = 82.7% (24 episodes)
TOS Season 2 = 61.5% (16 episodes)

Fair
TNG Season 1 = 36% (9 episodes)
TNG Season 2 = 22.7% (5 episodes)
TNG Season 3 = 30.7% (8 episodes)
TNG Season 4 = 26.9% (7 episodes)
TNG Season 5 = 34.6% (9 episodes)
TNG Season 6 = 34.6% (9 episodes)
TNG Season 7 = 34.6% (9 episodes)
TOS Season 1 = 17.2% (5 episodes)
TOS Season 2 = 26.9% (7 episodes)

Poor to Bad
TNG Season 1 = 48% (12 episodes)
TNG Season 2 = 36.3% (8 episodes)
TNG Season 3 = 26.9% (7 episodes)
TNG Season 4 = 30.7% (8 episodes)
TNG Season 5 = 30.7% (8 episodes)
TNG Season 6 = 34.6% (9 episodes)
TNG Season 7 = 50% (13 episodes)
TOS Season 1 = 0% (0 episodes)
TOS Season 2 = 11.5% (3 episodes)


Granted it has to be acknowledged that I'm primarily a TOS fan and it's my favourite Trek series. Still I did work my way through TNG and found quite a bit of it that I enjoyed. That said I do find this interesting.

First season TOS batted it out of the park and no season of TNG, not even the high water seasons three and four, could match TOS' first season in terms of the percentage of Good-Excellent episodes. And even though TOS slips in some measure in its second season that, too, still exceeded any of TNG's seasons in terms of Good-Excellent episodes. Also note that TOS' second season was equal in length (episode wise) to the average TNG season (26 episodes).

In terms of Fair rated episodes first season TOS had fewer than any season of TNG with TNG Season 2 coming closest. TOS' second season fared a bit worse and matches TNG's fourth season.

In terms of Poor-Bad episodes TOS does very well again because I didn't find any of TOS' first season episodes to be Poor or Bad and second season had very few real disappointments. And no TNG season came close to having similarly few disappointing episodes.

Of course, I've yet to finish TOS' Season 3 and to see what awaits there.

And, really, it all doesn't matter much because it really depends on what you like.

Wildly skewed but interesting

Well, mileage will vary depending on the driver.

Although the final tally isn't in yet for TOS I'm guessing that the number of Good-Excellent episodes for TOS over its three seasons won't be far different than the number of such episodes for TNG over its seven seasons. For me that boils down to TOS having a better batting average overall during its run.

 

[Shaw]

^^ But not a model of the D7, not in the original "The Trouble With Tribbles" because the D7 didn't exist yet.

Maybe Shaw or someone else would have some idea when the D7 was actually designed and built before it debuted onscreen in Season 3.

The final design that was approved for the Klingon was drawn on November 20, 1967. Unfortunately the plans that Jefferies made for the models don't include a date on them (that I could make out). I'm guessing that the design process for the ship was started shortly after the third season was approved, and even though the over all budget for that season was reduced, the model(s) didn't cost them anything as they were made by AMT in trade for the rights to make the kit. One model was finished quickly and given to the production, the second was kept by AMT for a while to make the Klingon model kit.

If I was to guess at when the model that was used for most of the Klingon shots was finished, I'd say late spring or early summer of 1968. But that is just a guess.

That is about all the info I have on the history of the design/build process of the D7.

 

[scotpens]

Even as an adult, I find Gem to be much less than stellar...perhaps it's the "over emoting" of Gem...or the fact that she was chewing the scenery even more than 'The Shat" could and he could speak...

In her defense, actress Kathryn Hays was a trained mime, and she was doing pantomime gestures and expressions meant for the live stage, which may have looked “big” in front of a camera. In any case, I think her performance suited the stylized nature of the episode.

One of the more interesting alien experiment episodes in TOS. Still can't help feel that these advanced species could find a much better way of finding out what they need to know.

Yes, but then we wouldn’t have seen a tortured, suffering, sweaty Captain Kirk with his shirt off.

Did anyone notice something odd about the back view of Shatner (actually his stunt double) in the suspended torture scene? The way his wrists are chained and his arms are fully outstretched, it’s physically impossible for a human body to hang like that. It’s obvious that he’s really suspended by wires attached to a harness around his hips. (And, in the medium shot of Shatner from the front, his elbows are bent!)

 

[Warped9]

^^ But not a model of the D7, not in the original "The Trouble With Tribbles" because the D7 didn't exist yet.

Maybe Shaw or someone else would have some idea when the D7 was actually designed and built before it debuted onscreen in Season 3.

The final design that was approved for the Klingon was drawn on November 20, 1967. Unfortunately the plans that Jefferies made for the models don't include a date on them (that I could make out). I'm guessing that the design process for the ship was started shortly after the third season was approved, and even though the over all budget for that season was reduced, the model(s) didn't cost them anything as they were made by AMT in trade for the rights to make the kit. One model was finished quickly and given to the production, the second was kept by AMT for a while to make the Klingon model kit.

If I was to guess at when the model that was used for most of the Klingon shots was finished, I'd say late spring or early summer of 1968. But that is just a guess.

That is about all the info I have on the history of the design/build process of the D7.

Thanks. It's enough to see that it wasn't going to show up in Season 2.

 

[RAMA]

Um...no, I didn't. DS9Sega did.

Oh you all look the same to me.

There's visible tessellation on the rear underside of the ship, seen in the from-behind shots. DS9Sega is quite correct in his assessment.



Oh, there's a difference alright.

Yup, the new ones are far superior.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Have to say, honestly, I like the old shot better. The old shot says the Enterprise is the star of the scene... in the new one the Enterprise almost seems incidental. YMMV.

I think it's the composition of the space shots that are lacking in TOS-R.

This is not even remotely credible.

Interestingly, I looked back at reaction to the D7 in the episode in question online a few days ago and the only two places I saw negative reviews were here and on Trekmovie. Almost every review site, blog, media story gave the FX and Klingon ship in the episode high marks. So again I have to chalk up the result here to bias.

RAMA

 

[Warped9]

So again I have to chalk up the result here to bias.

RAMA

I think that remark can be chalked up to bias because it's become the standard response. You apparently simply cannot stand the original f/x and can't accept any instance where someone might prefer them.

 

[Harvey]

Lastly, I think I noted some original music in this, but I'm not entirely sure because I could also hear familiar pieces from previous episodes.

Star Trek Soundtracks indicates that all the music in "The Tholian Web" was tracked from other episodes. I've found them to be a pretty reliable source.

 

[BillJ]

Oh you all look the same to me.



Yup, the new ones are far superior.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Have to say, honestly, I like the old shot better. The old shot says the Enterprise is the star of the scene... in the new one the Enterprise almost seems incidental. YMMV.

I think it's the composition of the space shots that are lacking in TOS-R.

This is not even remotely credible.

Interestingly, I looked back at reaction to the D7 in the episode in question online a few days ago and the only two places I saw negative reviews were here and on Trekmovie. Almost every review site, blog, media story gave the FX and Klingon ship in the episode high marks. So again I have to chalk up the result here to bias.

RAMA

You really do have a tough time with the concept of personal opinion, don't you? I'll never understand your need to run out and find others that agree with you. If the new effects had been universally panned, would you then think they weren't any good? Make your argument based on what you see on the screen not what other people think.

Some of the new effects work (mainly the matte extensions), some don't (a lot of the space shots)... in my opinion. People here are sharing their opinions on the work. We're all different and we all have differing expectations.

Live with it.

 

[BillJ]

I can see why people are saying the model of the D-7 from Elaan of Troyius is a low-poly model. All you have to do is look at the base of the neck...

The body of the digital model doesn't have the same curvature as the physical model.

You can also see a number of simple polygons in this shot here...

In this shot it's really evident...

It's also rather noticeable in this screencap from The Enterprise Incident:

Another shot:

Now in my opinion, the physical model of the D-7 is superior to the digital version. The digital version looks incomplete... or they simply didn't think tight shots of it would be used when it was built.

 

[Forbin]

Oh you all look the same to me.



Yup, the new ones are far superior.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Have to say, honestly, I like the old shot better. The old shot says the Enterprise is the star of the scene... in the new one the Enterprise almost seems incidental. YMMV.

I think it's the composition of the space shots that are lacking in TOS-R.

This is not even remotely credible.

Interestingly, I looked back at reaction to the D7 in the episode in question online a few days ago and the only two places I saw negative reviews were here and on Trekmovie. Almost every review site, blog, media story gave the FX and Klingon ship in the episode high marks. So again I have to chalk up the result here to bias.

RAMA

THAT is not even remotely credible.

And you are, of course, totally unbiased?

 

[Captain Robert April]

Anybody else remember how if anyone made a criticism, any criticism on any level, of JJTrek, RAMA would just trot out the latest box office take as evidence that we were all wet?

 

[Maurice]

I can see why people are saying the model of the D-7 from Elaan of Troyius is a low-poly model. All you have to do is look at the base of the neck...

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/3x13hd/elaanoftroyiushd1389.jpg

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/3x13hd/elaanoftroyiushd1390.jpg

The body of the digital model doesn't have the same curvature as the physical model.

You can also see a number of simple polygons in this shot here...

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/3x13hd/elaanoftroyiushd1385.jpg

In this shot it's really evident...

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/3x13hd/elaanoftroyiushd1366.jpg



It's also rather noticeable in this screencap from The Enterprise Incident:

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/3x02hd/theenterpriseincidenthd0128c.jpg

Another shot:

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/3x02hd/theenterpriseincidenthd0300a.jpg

Now in my opinion, the physical model of the D-7 is superior to the digital version. The digital version looks incomplete... or they simply didn't think tight shots of it would be used when it was built.

Those links don't work.

 

[Maurice]

Here you can see how crappy and low poly the Klingon CG model was. Flat edges abound.

Click on the lower leftmost screenshot on this page.

 

[BillJ]

I can see why people are saying the model of the D-7 from Elaan of Troyius is a low-poly model. All you have to do is look at the base of the neck...

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/3x13hd/elaanoftroyiushd1389.jpg

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/3x13hd/elaanoftroyiushd1390.jpg

The body of the digital model doesn't have the same curvature as the physical model.

You can also see a number of simple polygons in this shot here...

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/3x13hd/elaanoftroyiushd1385.jpg

In this shot it's really evident...

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/3x13hd/elaanoftroyiushd1366.jpg



It's also rather noticeable in this screencap from The Enterprise Incident:

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/3x02hd/theenterpriseincidenthd0128c.jpg

Another shot:

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/3x02hd/theenterpriseincidenthd0300a.jpg

Now in my opinion, the physical model of the D-7 is superior to the digital version. The digital version looks incomplete... or they simply didn't think tight shots of it would be used when it was built.

Those links don't work.

That's weird, just clicked on all of them and they popped right up. I'm using Firefox.

They're not working through IE or Google Chrome though...

 

[Harvey]

For some reason they're not working in Chrome. Weird.

 

[Gepard]

They don't work for me, either. Running Firefox 3.5.3. All I get are 403 forbidden messages.

 

[Jonas Grumby]

^ Doesn't work for me on IE, either.

"You don't have permission to access /hd/albums/3x02hd/theenterpriseincidenthd0128c.jpg on this server."