Revisiting Star Trek TOS/TAS...

[Warped9]

The simple fact is RAMA sees TOS-R as simply superior hands down because of the new f/x. Nothing will convince him otherwise. And he can't accept that someone else could see it differently, that others could feel they might have gone too far in many cases or see something that is so obviously cgi and is jarring alongside the original live-action footage.

This debate has gone round and round and round with no end in sight.

Forget it.

 

[Warped9]

^^ I don't want to get this thread off-track, but I just watched the TOS-R version of "Where No Man Has Gone Before."

- Opening approach shot looks kinda nice, but it looks very contemporary and not of the era.
- I like the green/gold colour of the command tunics that finally comes through and differentiates them more clearly from the support sections sand colour.
- Why did they insert Kirk’s voice over in the opening titles? It wasn’t there originally and set a tone that this event was before the 5-year mission. Also the sound of the theme is more like the late first season opening theme as opposed to the more electronic sounding version of the second pilot. Meh.
- I miss the nice panning shot of the Enterprise is it passes after the opening credits.
- Okay, it’s official: I HATE the “new” energy barrier and how the ship is shown entering it. It’s very contemporary looking and rather cartoony. It looks really out of place. It doesn’t look like energy, but rather looks gaseous. Nope, I miss that wonderful iconic shot of the Enterprise banking as it struggles within the barrier.
- Next shot of ship limping after commercial break just looks blah.
- The spatial image of Delta Vega is quite nice, but the ship just looks flat and insubstantial—cartoony isn’t the right word, but it’s the one that comes to mind. It just doesn’t look right.
- The Delta Vega station matte looks rather nice.
- Okay, why couldn’t they do an updated version of the original shot of the Enterprise leaving Delta Vega? The original was rather clunky, but it looked cool. The new one is blah.

Overall I could say it's a mixed bag. The remastering brings nice colour and detail out (sometimes too much detail) in the live-action footage, the mattes are nice, but the ship footage and the new energy barrier are jarring and look too contemporary and really out of place. So in the end I have to say

Basically they swapped out iconic and imaginative '60's era f/x for cheesy commonplace cgi. Occasionally it worked (the mattes), but the rest is a disappointment and looks out of place. Yes, the original f/x could have been enhanced and improved, but for the most part they didn't do it here.

 

[RAMA]

^^ I don't want to get this thread off-track, but I just watched the TOS-R version of "Where No Man Has Gone Before."

- Opening approach shot looks kinda nice, but it looks very contemporary and not of the era.
- I like the green/gold colour of the command tunics that finally comes through and differentiates them more clearly from the support sections sand colour.
- Why did they insert Kirk’s voice over in the opening titles? It wasn’t there originally and set a tone that this event was before the 5-year mission. Also the sound of the theme is more like the late first season opening theme as opposed to the more electronic sounding version of the second pilot. Meh.
- I miss the nice panning shot of the Enterprise is it passes after the opening credits.
- Okay, it’s official: I HATE the “new” energy barrier and how the ship is shown entering it. It’s very contemporary looking and rather cartoony. It looks really out of place. It doesn’t look like energy, but rather looks gaseous. Nope, I miss that wonderful iconic shot of the Enterprise banking as it struggles within the barrier.
- Next shot of ship limping after commercial break just looks blah.
- The spatial image of Delta Vega is quite nice, but the ship just looks flat and insubstantial—cartoony isn’t the right word, but it’s the one that comes to mind. It just doesn’t look right.
- The Delta Vega station matte looks rather nice.
- Okay, why couldn’t they do an updated version of the original shot of the Enterprise leaving Delta Vega? The original was rather clunky, but it looked cool. The new one is blah.

Overall I could say it's a mixed bag. The remastering brings nice colour and detail out (sometimes too much detail) in the live-action footage, the mattes are nice, but the ship footage and the new energy barrier are jarring and look too contemporary and really out of place. So in the end I have to say

Basically they swapped out iconic and imaginative '60's era f/x for cheesy commonplace cgi. Occasionally it worked (the mattes), but the rest is a disappointment and looks out of place. Yes, the original f/x could have been enhanced and improved, but for the most part they didn't do it here.

Why am I not surprised? Why bother watching them then? Its a foregone conclusion. Its better to stay off in your own little comfortable world.

RAMA

 

[evilnate]

It actually never claims it's low poly at all. The lack of overall detail (again, despite having more details than the physical model) was deliberate. Of course the article is just opinion, just like yours and mine, and I'm fine with it being different. I'm only mentioning the TOS-R when I think it improves the story and that's what I'm sticking to. So I am not going to bother continuing this particular issue on this thread.

RAMA

I didn't say "low poly", I said "low quality". How can you know that the lack of detail (detail that was present and visible on the physical model, mind you) was a deliberate decision? Do you have a link to an interview? All I can go by is what I see with my own eyes, absent any other information.

 

[RAMA]

It actually never claims it's low poly at all. The lack of overall detail (again, despite having more details than the physical model) was deliberate. Of course the article is just opinion, just like yours and mine, and I'm fine with it being different. I'm only mentioning the TOS-R when I think it improves the story and that's what I'm sticking to. So I am not going to bother continuing this particular issue on this thread.

RAMA

I didn't say "low poly", I said "low quality". How can you know that the lack of detail (detail that was present and visible on the physical model, mind you) was a deliberate decision? Do you have a link to an interview? All I can go by is what I see with my own eyes, absent any other information.

Corrected

But we can take this to the TOS-R thread. I'm continually amazed at the comments I get on reviews about the episodes.

RAMA

 

[evilnate]

It actually never claims it's low poly at all. The lack of overall detail (again, despite having more details than the physical model) was deliberate. Of course the article is just opinion, just like yours and mine, and I'm fine with it being different. I'm only mentioning the TOS-R when I think it improves the story and that's what I'm sticking to. So I am not going to bother continuing this particular issue on this thread.

RAMA

I didn't say "low poly", I said "low quality". How can you know that the lack of detail (detail that was present and visible on the physical model, mind you) was a deliberate decision? Do you have a link to an interview? All I can go by is what I see with my own eyes, absent any other information.

Actually you did:

http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=5011704&postcount=698

But we can take this to the TOS-R thread. I'm continually amazed at the comments I get on reviews about the episodes.

RAMA

Um...no, I didn't. DS9Sega did.

 

[Gepard]

I don't think the Klingon ship is a lower poly model than any other they use, it simply has a smoothed out detail--even though it adds some detail over the original 60s model--which is keeping with the design ethic of keeping the fx looking like they were made in the 60s. Its a major starship design, and if it were lower poly, they couldn't do the close ups, and they give the "star" of the show quite a showcase...

There's visible tessellation on the rear underside of the ship, seen in the from-behind shots. DS9Sega is quite correct in his assessment.

Wow, what a difference:

http://img.trekmovie.com/tosrem/eot/old_tosr057_21.jpg
http://img.trekmovie.com/tosrem/eot/new_tosr057_21.jpg

In HD:

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/thumbnails.php?album=72&page=81

RAMA

Oh, there's a difference alright.

 

[Noname Given]

...the Ent and Klingons go toe to toe for the first time...a scene which is obviously superior in the TOS-R version

RAMA

Sorry, but from what I've seen of it the TOS-R treatment of this battle, particularly the Klingon ship and its disruptor fire, it looks cheap. I didn't care for it one bit. And, of course, they weren't going to paint their cgi model the same way Matt Jefferies painted his physical model.

I like a lot of what they did for TOS-R; but I have to agree with Warped9 here in that this is on episode where I prefer the original effects overall. I really like the original Klingon ship gisruptor bolts. In the TOS-R version the Klingon disruptors look like ectoplasmic slime (ala Ghostbusters - the only thing missing is a shot of Kirk on the Bridge saying "They slimed me..." .)

I lso have a real soft spot for the episode myself as it's the first Star Trek episode I ever saw on NBC back in 1969 (I was 6 years old); and it hooked me on Star Trek.

 

[RAMA]

I didn't say "low poly", I said "low quality". How can you know that the lack of detail (detail that was present and visible on the physical model, mind you) was a deliberate decision? Do you have a link to an interview? All I can go by is what I see with my own eyes, absent any other information.

Actually you did:

http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=5011704&postcount=698

But we can take this to the TOS-R thread. I'm continually amazed at the comments I get on reviews about the episodes.

RAMA

Um...no, I didn't. DS9Sega did.

Oh you all look the same to me.

I don't think the Klingon ship is a lower poly model than any other they use, it simply has a smoothed out detail--even though it adds some detail over the original 60s model--which is keeping with the design ethic of keeping the fx looking like they were made in the 60s. Its a major starship design, and if it were lower poly, they couldn't do the close ups, and they give the "star" of the show quite a showcase...

There's visible tessellation on the rear underside of the ship, seen in the from-behind shots. DS9Sega is quite correct in his assessment.

Wow, what a difference:

http://img.trekmovie.com/tosrem/eot/old_tosr057_21.jpg
http://img.trekmovie.com/tosrem/eot/new_tosr057_21.jpg

In HD:

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/thumbnails.php?album=72&page=81

RAMA

Oh, there's a difference alright.

Yup, the new ones are far superior.

 

[BillJ]

Actually you did:

http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=5011704&postcount=698

But we can take this to the TOS-R thread. I'm continually amazed at the comments I get on reviews about the episodes.

RAMA

Um...no, I didn't. DS9Sega did.

Oh you all look the same to me.

There's visible tessellation on the rear underside of the ship, seen in the from-behind shots. DS9Sega is quite correct in his assessment.

Wow, what a difference:

http://img.trekmovie.com/tosrem/eot/old_tosr057_21.jpg
http://img.trekmovie.com/tosrem/eot/new_tosr057_21.jpg

In HD:

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/thumbnails.php?album=72&page=81

RAMA

Oh, there's a difference alright.

Yup, the new ones are far superior.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Have to say, honestly, I like the old shot better. The old shot says the Enterprise is the star of the scene... in the new one the Enterprise almost seems incidental. YMMV.

I think it's the composition of the space shots that are lacking in TOS-R.

 

[Captain Robert April]

“The Omega Glory” ****

Kirk suspects a fellow starship Captain of interfering with an alien culture.

Tracey is unusual in that he is actually the BAD GUY. I can't imagine a character like this appearing in TNG while Roddenberry was alive. He's not misguided. He's not acting the wrong way for the right reasons. He's grabbing all he can get and he's throwing Our Heroes to the wolves to save his skin.

Um, you do realize that GR wrote this episode, right?

 

[Captain Robert April]

^^ Like in some previous episodes Kirk has orders to contact them. When he sends them a responding hail in answer to their warning he's answered with silence. And this is after everyone hears the initial Melkot signal each in their own language.

It must be noted also that when things seem too strange after they beam down Kirk decides they should leave, but they can't contact the ship. Of course, by this point we later understand that even this event is all part of the same telepathic fiction. The Enterprise was still parked beside the Melkot buoy and the aliens were using their telepathic abilities to test the Enterprise crew.

Over the years I've learned to see this is actually quite a clever bit of writing, but you really have to pay attention as everything is not blatantly spelled out. And read some of the original script ideas that didn't make it to film---it's actually for the better the way it was finally shot.

Yes, there are Matt Jeffries drawings of both complete and incomplete sets out there online. Its stated in the Making of Star Trek I believe that it was a cost saving measure...though I'd have to look that up. At least it shows the original intention that the melktotians were to create a realistic illusion, but it wound up looking obviosuly like what it was, a cheat.

RAMA

Pretty neat trick since TMoST was written before the third season was even a done deal.

Try again.

 

[Warped9]

Why am I not surprised? Why bother watching them then? Its a foregone conclusion. Its better to stay off in your own little comfortable world.

RAMA

Why am I not surprised that because someone has a dissenting viewpoint you question the honesty of their opinion.

Let me clarify then. The new f/x---the ones I didn't like---look fine for a contemporary series, but in my opinion they look out of place with a '60's era production like TOS. These are not enhancements, but wholesale changes without any effort and/or understanding of the artistry and feel of the original shot. It was change for the sake of change.

Your trying to ridicule my opinion doesn't change anything in the slightest.

I think the original shots could have been enhanced without losing the feel of the originals. But they didn't do it here.

 

[Captain Robert April]

Why do I think there's a little D-7 orbiting K-7 in "Tribbles"? Am I making that up?

Yes, I was, apparently. Making it up, that is.

There's an AMT or the 3 foot Ent hanging outside K7 (By the way, hey, young me, DON'T throw out your models as you age!! I had a great K7 I used at least a whole bottle of silver Testors on. It was tacky for days), but no D7.

And yes, it's in TOS-R, but I've never watched those.

Memories are funny.

That was an AMT model in the window (that model, btw, is now in the Science Fiction Museum in Seattle).

 

[Warped9]

^^ But not a model of the D7, not in the original "The Trouble With Tribbles" because the D7 didn't exist yet.

Maybe Shaw or someone else would have some idea when the D7 was actually designed and built before it debuted onscreen in Season 3.

 

[Forbin]

^^ I don't want to get this thread off-track, but I just watched the TOS-R version of "Where No Man Has Gone Before."

- Opening approach shot looks kinda nice, but it looks very contemporary and not of the era.
- I like the green/gold colour of the command tunics that finally comes through and differentiates them more clearly from the support sections sand colour.
- Why did they insert Kirk’s voice over in the opening titles? It wasn’t there originally and set a tone that this event was before the 5-year mission. Also the sound of the theme is more like the late first season opening theme as opposed to the more electronic sounding version of the second pilot. Meh.
- I miss the nice panning shot of the Enterprise is it passes after the opening credits.
- Okay, it’s official: I HATE the “new” energy barrier and how the ship is shown entering it. It’s very contemporary looking and rather cartoony. It looks really out of place. It doesn’t look like energy, but rather looks gaseous. Nope, I miss that wonderful iconic shot of the Enterprise banking as it struggles within the barrier.
- Next shot of ship limping after commercial break just looks blah.
- The spatial image of Delta Vega is quite nice, but the ship just looks flat and insubstantial—cartoony isn’t the right word, but it’s the one that comes to mind. It just doesn’t look right.
- The Delta Vega station matte looks rather nice.
- Okay, why couldn’t they do an updated version of the original shot of the Enterprise leaving Delta Vega? The original was rather clunky, but it looked cool. The new one is blah.

Overall I could say it's a mixed bag. The remastering brings nice colour and detail out (sometimes too much detail) in the live-action footage, the mattes are nice, but the ship footage and the new energy barrier are jarring and look too contemporary and really out of place. So in the end I have to say

Basically they swapped out iconic and imaginative '60's era f/x for cheesy commonplace cgi. Occasionally it worked (the mattes), but the rest is a disappointment and looks out of place. Yes, the original f/x could have been enhanced and improved, but for the most part they didn't do it here.

Why am I not surprised? Why bother watching them then? Its a foregone conclusion. Its better to stay off in your own little comfortable world.

RAMA

Pot, meet kettle.

 

[Warped9]

“The Enterprise Incident” *****

The Enterprise is caught trangressing the Romulan Neutral Zone.

Fourth episode in and yet another distinctive soundtrack. And lots of other good stuff in this. Of course the interiors of the Romulan ship are redresses of existing Enterprise interiors, but points for making an effort to looking and being lighted differently as well as sound f/x to create a different atmosphere. A really nice touch having the Romulan Commander being a woman even if she is supposed to be an alien.

The Romulan Commander really lays it on thick in trying to seduce Spock, not only personally but also ideologically away from Starfleet and the Federation. It's hard to say how much of her interest in Spock is personally sincere, but she never seems to really lose sight of what capturing a Federation starship would do for her career wise. It's also quite apparent that she knows and understands little of Vulcans and yet has the gall to accuse Kirk of not likely being able to understand such things. She understands next to nothing about Vulcan honour, integrity and loyalty in thinking Spock could be so easily swayed by vague promises and her attempts to liquor him up and seduce him. And Spock gives as good as he gets by letting her believe he's being taken in by all her bullshit. He certainly disproves that Vulcans cannot lie.

I like the scene when the two Romulans are beamed aboard the Enterprise and Scotty just stares them down. And then later when he issues his own defiance to the Romulan Commander.

Another aspect that comes across in this episode is that it doesn't feel cheap. Unlike some later episodes where the budget constraints start to show it isn't really apparent here.

Joan Linville does a good job as the Romulan Commander---and she's commanding a squadron and not just a single ship. I also liked the way Sub-Commander Tal was portrayed.

There is one small logic flaw I noted. When Spock informs her she's not likely to find the missing cloaking device you'd think they'd quickly get the idea that it's no longer aboard their ship. Also it was rather convenient that Kirk grabbed the one major component of the cloaking system needed to make it work. I would have thought such a system would have been a lot more involved and components spread throughout the ship.

No matter, though, because overall it's an interesting and well told story. After these last four episodes Season 3 gets off to an admirable start and you would certainly find it strange the hear the season overall so heavily criticized.

However...

 

[Harvey]

I like "The Enterprise Incident," but D.C. Fontana's complaints about how it was executed are as good an explanation why I don't love it as any:

Overall it was not a bad episode, but I did have a lot of complaints about it and things that weren't approached or handled right...Let's face it, the romantic scene between the Romulan Commander and Spock was totally out of context. Any Romulan worth her salt would have instantly suspected Spock because they are related races. That was wrong. Kirk's attitudes were wrong. A simple thing–the cloaking device was supposed to be a very small thing, about the size of a watch, for instance, and it could be easily hidden. Here's Kirk running around with this thing that looks like a lamp. You know, highly visible. This is stupidity as well as illogical thinking. Visually it was stupid, conceptually it was very bad. There were a lot of things, little things, that were changed, but my biggest objection is the scene between Spock and the woman, because I really did not believe it. And I did not believe that the Romulan did not suspect Spock of something underhanded. She does know enough about Vulcan and Vulcans to know that something's afoot.

 

[Warped9]

“And The Children Shall Lead” *

A scientific expedition is found to have all suicided...except the children.

This episode starts off pretty damned dark with the scene of a group of adults laying about, all dead by self-inflicted poison. And it's made all the darker and creepier by the sight and sound of children playing amongst their dead parents. Another really disturbing moment is the realization they've just beamed two innocent security personnel unknowingly out into the vacuum of space while under way at warp. Ouch, that's cold.

Candidly this episode isn't bad...for about the first twenty minutes and then it starts to go off the rails. It comes down to questionable and truly over-the-top execution best exemplified by Shatner's exaggerated performance when he's affected by the children. And then to cap it off you have a villain that looks absolutely ridiculous and performed by some schmuck who can't act worth a damn. Some of the written dialogue is pretty bad too.

It's a huge letdown after an initial run of good episodes for the season. It's even more of a disappointment because underneath the poor execution is a genuinely dark and unnerving story waiting to be told. Some editing and smarter writing and more nuance could have gone a long way. The Gorgan needed to be rethought and someone actually talented needed to portray him. The gestures the children make to wield their influence looks rather screwy too.

This isn't just a disappointment---it's a show falling on its face.

 

[Warped9]

I like "The Enterprise Incident," but D.C. Fontana's complaints about how it was executed are as good an explanation why I don't love it as any:

Overall it was not a bad episode, but I did have a lot of complaints about it and things that weren't approached or handled right...Let's face it, the romantic scene between the Romulan Commander and Spock was totally out of context. Any Romulan worth her salt would have instantly suspected Spock because they are related races. That was wrong. Kirk's attitudes were wrong. A simple thing–the cloaking device was supposed to be a very small thing, about the size of a watch, for instance, and it could be easily hidden. Here's Kirk running around with this thing that looks like a lamp. You know, highly visible. This is stupidity as well as illogical thinking. Visually it was stupid, conceptually it was very bad. There were a lot of things, little things, that were changed, but my biggest objection is the scene between Spock and the woman, because I really did not believe it. And I did not believe that the Romulan did not suspect Spock of something underhanded. She does know enough about Vulcan and Vulcans to know that something's afoot.

I understand what she's saying about the Romulan Commander. Hell, I remarked on it as well. But the cloaking device I'm not so sure. Firstly something the size of a watch doesn't cut it as believable as a mechanism and secondly Kirk wasn't running around with this thing. As soon as he found it he grabbed and got beamed out. Mind you with all the Romulan guards we saw it's surprising this thing wasn't more heavily guarded.