Revisiting Star Trek TOS/TAS...

[BillJ]

Well... season 3 in general isn't as poor as people seemingly want it to be.

Hell, I'm only three episodes in and with the next installment being "The Enterprise Incident" and it's been pretty damned good so far.

Of course, I can also see some of what's coming ahead...

Yeah... there is a string coming everybit as brutal as the string of season two Enterprise episodes that killed that series for me.

 

[Warped9]

A series can survive a handful of disappointing episodes. But if there are too many just okay episodes then you have an overall feeling of disappointment after two generally solid seasons.

But candidly we know it's not the calibre of Season 3 that got Star Trek cancelled. It was simply the way ratings were measured at the time---it was pure overall numbers as opposed to the number of a desired target audience. If TOS had been rated by demographics even in just its second season then things might have unfolded quite differently.

...there is a string coming everybit as brutal as the string of season two Enterprise episodes that killed that series for me.

Well, I'm reasonably sure there will be some disagreement. I know of a couple of episodes I don't think are bad, particularly in light of the passage of time, that I've seen panned over the years and around this board.

We'll see...

 

[BillJ]

But candidly we know it's not the calibre of Season 3 that got Star Trek cancelled. It was simply the way ratings were measured at the time---it was pure overall numbers as opposed to the number of a desired target audience. If TOS had been rated by demographics even in just its second season then things might have unfolded quite differently.

You know I don't think I'd have wanted a TOS season 4. I've watched Next Gen, DS9 and Voyager all stick around just a little too long and it stained their reputations in my eyes (kinda like an athlete who doesn't know when to retire).

I'd rather be left wanting more than getting too much and not remembering the show as fondly.

 

[Tallguy]

As far as I know didn't they slip it into "Errand Of Mercy" as well? And to the best of my knowledge TOS-R didn't use Matt Jefferies' original painting scheme for the ship either.

They did...in fact there is a whole fleet of them. The irritating thing about the shot is that it's extremely brief, to the point that I'm not sure why they bothered. The D-7 also shows up in "A Private Little War".

It might have to be brief unless you want to alter the original pacing of the episode. And you would have to be extremely careful about what live-action footage bit to edit or snip out to add new f/x footage that wasn't planned for originally.

About the only things you can get away with editing to add new f/x shots would be character reaction shots that linger for a second or two too long. But I'll reserve final judgement for when I rewatch the series through the TOS-R episodes themselves.

I think the only time TOS-R actually replaced a live action shot with FX was in Amok Time.

 

[Warped9]

But candidly we know it's not the calibre of Season 3 that got Star Trek cancelled. It was simply the way ratings were measured at the time---it was pure overall numbers as opposed to the number of a desired target audience. If TOS had been rated by demographics even in just its second season then things might have unfolded quite differently.

You know I don't think I'd have wanted a TOS season 4. I've watched Next Gen, DS9 and Voyager all stick around just a little too long and it stained their reputations in my eyes (kinda like an athlete who doesn't know when to retire).

I'd rather be left wanting more than getting too much and not remembering the show as fondly.

Yes, but consider. If TOS had been measured in demographics from the beginning or even just from Season 2 then NBC could have said, "Hey, this thing works after all. Let's keep going." Then they might have given Season 3 a better timeslot and not slashed the budget to the same extent or at all. And Gene Roddenberry and some others might have stuck around longer. And then we likely would have had a somewhat different third season.

You can't just change one thing in a vacuum. If you change one thing you then have a ripple effect that results in other changes and differences.

 

[BillJ]

You can't just change one thing in a vacuum. If you change one thing you then have a ripple effect that results in other changes and differences.

I think what I'm saying is that, overall, I'm happy with what I got. There are no guarantees that season 3 would've been any better with Roddenberry at the helm. Especially when you look at some of the missteps from season 2.

Freidberger may have ran the production but many of the people who had been there for the first two seasons were still working on the show.

Roddenberry may not have been the line producer for season 3 but he was still there. He even had third season writing credits.

 

[Maurice]

But candidly we know it's not the calibre of Season 3 that got Star Trek cancelled. It was simply the way ratings were measured at the time---it was pure overall numbers as opposed to the number of a desired target audience. If TOS had been rated by demographics even in just its second season then things might have unfolded quite differently.

You know I don't think I'd have wanted a TOS season 4. I've watched Next Gen, DS9 and Voyager all stick around just a little too long and it stained their reputations in my eyes (kinda like an athlete who doesn't know when to retire).

I'd rather be left wanting more than getting too much and not remembering the show as fondly.

Yes, but consider. If TOS had been measured in demographics from the beginning or even just from Season 2 then NBC could have said, "Hey, this thing works after all. Let's keep going." Then they might have given Season 3 a better timeslot and not slashed the budget to the same extent or at all. And Gene Roddenberry and some others might have stuck around longer. And then we likely would have had a somewhat different third season.

You can't just change one thing in a vacuum. If you change one thing you then have a ripple effect that results in other changes and differences.

I've never really bought the no-demographics argument. Inside Star Trek makes a pretty good case that there were some demographics used, notably that Trek appealed to people with color TVs, ergo RCA was favorably inclined to sponsor it and helped keep the show on the air despite low numbers.

 

[Harvey]

An article that pokes a few holes into the demographic argument can be found here: http://www.tvobscurities.com/articles/star_trek_look.php

 

[Vance]

And Gene Roddenberry and some others might have stuck around longer. And then we likely would have had a somewhat different third season.

I can assure you, if Gene had 'stuck around' for season three, there wouldn't have even been a season three. His presence on the lot was a major bone of contention for Desliu, and his work for season three (which was really just during the hiatus) pretty much consisted of him signing off on season 2's leftovers - enough to get him a check and a credit, but very little actual work.

 

[Forbin]

The Klingon fleet scene in Errand of Mercy was ludicrous! there were, what, 4? 6? battlecruisers nose-to-nose with the E in orbit lobbing shots at her. It looked pretty stupid.

 

[BillJ]

The Klingon fleet scene in Errand of Mercy was ludicrous! there were, what, 4? 6? battlecruisers nose-to-nose with the E in orbit lobbing shots at her. It looked pretty stupid.

Agreed.

 

[RAMA]

We now return to our regularly scheduled subject...


“Elaan Of Troyius” *****

The Enterprise must ferry a reluctant high-ranking bride to her wedding.

I REALLY like this episode and candidly I always have. I like the way the bridge is lighted. I LOVE the music. I LIKE the way Kirk deals with the Elaasian Dohlman. I think Troyian Ambassador Petri is quirky and amusing. And even with the touches of contextual humour (like "Spectre Of The Gun" before it) I like how the episode's overall sensibility feels more like that of Season 1.

The other thing I quite like is how Shatner plays Kirk over the past two episodes. This Kirk isn't quite as casual as in Season 2. He's more like how he was played in Season 1.

Although "The Enterprise Incident" is the first aired episode to show the new Klingon Battle Cruiser in terms of production order this is the first time it's used. It's a beauty of a design and nice to see it in combat with Starfleet's best.

Another interesting wrinkle here is it's the girl throwing herself at Kirk and him trying to resist. He weakens momentarily, but Elaan can't compete with Kirk's real lady: the Enterprise.

This episode is just damned fun and in mostly good ways. If I have to quibble I would say that the supposed body armor suits of the Elaasian look ridiculous.

Finally it's amusing for Spock and McCoy to catch Kirk with his Prime Directive violation showing...in a matter of speaking.

Solid enough episode story-wise...somewhat sexist and brimming with racial stereotypes: of course the rich girl is going to be petulant and Kirk is going to have to treat her like a child, and literally almost spank her. She's both a manipulating viper and then a submissive "Asian" flower. Kirk, of course is the civilized (Western) male who comes to the rescue. In the end she can barely be heard when she speaks as she answers to him wistfully. Yikes. I bet 60s males ate this stuff up.

The story is Taming of the Shrew of course, so its hard to fault it for such timeless material. The Klingon subplot is satsifying, and the Ent and Klingons go toe to toe for the first time...a scene which is obviously superior in the TOS-R version, it includes some effective new high motion shots. The acting is also hard to fault though the dialogue--like much of it in season 3--often ventures into melodrama and camp. *** stars

“The Paradise Syndrome” ***

An amnesiac Kirk finds peace and happiness amongst a simple people while unaware an asteroid threatens their world.

Here is another episode I really didn't care much for when I was younger. But now I actually rather like it even if I see flaws in it. My biggest criticisms are in regard to some of the thinking behind the Enterprise having to intercept the asteroid, how easily the ship is crippled and Spock's methods in trying to deflect it.

If it takes mere hours to reach the asteroid at Warp 9 then I think it's going to take a lot more than two months for the thing to get to the planet. And even at impulse the Enterprise should easily be able to outrace this thing. Even at .1c or a tenth to a quarter or so impulse the ship should outrace it by a considerable margin. Next the use of ship's phasers and deflectors was stupid. A little old fashioned thinking would have sufficed. How about a series of photon torpedo charges to deflect the asteroid by degree with each successive blast? I also didn't like the f/x shot showing the ship retreating from the asteroid in reverse all the way back to the planet. It would have made more sense for them to go forward and put the pedal-to-the-metal. At any rate this whole sequence of the episode grates on my nerves.

That said I rather like the exchanges between Spock and McCoy as Spock is trying to decipher the obelisk's symbols. I also like Spock's discovery about the Preservers and giving at least a nod to the notion of why there are so many humanoid cultures throughout the galaxy. It's an interesting story idea and one I wish they could have followed up later.

Once again the general sensibility and overall execution of this episode I find admirable. Also, three episodes in and each with its own distinctive soundtrack.

Although it fits in conceptually with the story I found the "corruption" of Kirk's name to Kirok didn't really work. And having "Kirok" trying to invoke his name to get into the temple seemed kind of cheesy. Finally Spock's mind meld with Kirk also seemed rather weird this time around. And McCoy is so preoccupied with Kirk that even when he appears to be okay McCoy has to be reminded to look after the very injured Miramanee?

What it comes down to is that there are actually a lot of things I like in this episode and some things that bug me a little too much. So in the end it's a wash and I rate it as fair.

One of the most boring TOS episodes...Kirk gets a chance to to have "a beach to walk on" in a life devoid of responsibility. It a fleeting glimpse and doesn't lead to much--as we know Kirk would never choose that life--so the episode seems rather pointless. Its also unclear just how much he remembers. Spock's meld may have only restored his Starfleet memories, and perhaps some at the obelisk before the meld. It's not so easy at this point to believe he falls in "love" yet again but this sort of thing often happened to the protagonist in 60s tv. The three best things about the episode are the "Preservers": a potentially huge part of Trek lore, Spock and McCoy's interaction and an incredibly well designed obelisk. **1/2 stars

RAMA

 

[Gepard]

Let's not be too hard on it -- it gave us the immortal "I AM KIROK!" with the attendant reference thereof in nearly every MST3K episode ever. I wouldn't trade that in for the world.

 

[RAMA]

Let's not be too hard on it -- it gave us the immortal "I AM KIROK!" with the attendant reference thereof in nearly every MST3K episode ever. I wouldn't trade that in for the world.

Unfortunately no stars for that.

 

[Warped9]

...the Ent and Klingons go toe to toe for the first time...a scene which is obviously superior in the TOS-R version

RAMA

Sorry, but from what I've seen of it the TOS-R treatment of this battle, particularly the Klingon ship and its disruptor fire, it looks cheap. I didn't care for it one bit. And, of course, they weren't going to paint their cgi model the same way Matt Jefferies painted his physical model.

 

[plynch]

Why do I think there's a little D-7 orbiting K-7 in "Tribbles"? Am I making that up?

Yes, I was, apparently. Making it up, that is.

There's an AMT or the 3 foot Ent hanging outside K7 (By the way, hey, young me, DON'T throw out your models as you age!! I had a great K7 I used at least a whole bottle of silver Testors on. It was tacky for days), but no D7.

And yes, it's in TOS-R, but I've never watched those.

Memories are funny.

 

[Maurice]

...the Ent and Klingons go toe to toe for the first time...a scene which is obviously superior in the TOS-R version

RAMA

Sorry, but from what I've seen of it the TOS-R treatment of this battle, particularly the Klingon ship and its disruptor fire, it looks cheap. I didn't care for it one bit. And, of course, they weren't going to paint their cgi model the same way Matt Jefferies painted his physical model.

The battlecruiser model was an embarrassing low-poly model that was crappily animated. It exhibited no sense of mass.

The other problem is that the makers of these VFX don't understand the principle of maintaining relative direction for moving objects. The Enterprise maintains a screen-right facing throughout, ergo, any shot of the opposing ship should have it facing screen-left when coming headlong at the Enterprise, and screen-right when approaching from behind. Instead, we see the Klingon ship overtaking the Enterprise from behind while facing screen-left.

Even worse, when the ship whips into orbit near the end, we see the ship vanish behind the planet, which makes the Enterprise either hundreds of miles long or for a very tiny planet.

 

[RAMA]

...the Ent and Klingons go toe to toe for the first time...a scene which is obviously superior in the TOS-R version

RAMA

Sorry, but from what I've seen of it the TOS-R treatment of this battle, particularly the Klingon ship and its disruptor fire, it looks cheap. I didn't care for it one bit. And, of course, they weren't going to paint their cgi model the same way Matt Jefferies painted his physical model.

The battlecruiser model was an embarrassing low-poly model that was crappily animated. It exhibited no sense of mass.

The other problem is that the makers of these VFX don't understand the principle of maintaining relative direction for moving objects. The Enterprise maintains a screen-right facing throughout, ergo, any shot of the opposing ship should have it facing screen-left when coming headlong at the Enterprise, and screen-right when approaching from behind. Instead, we see the Klingon ship overtaking the Enterprise from behind while facing screen-left.

Even worse, when the ship whips into orbit near the end, we see the ship vanish behind the planet, which makes the Enterprise either hundreds of miles long or for a very tiny planet.

I took a look at the VFX reel. I don't think the Klingon ship is a lower poly model than any other they use, it simply has a smoothed out detail--even though it adds some detail over the original 60s model--which is keeping with the design ethic of keeping the fx looking like they were made in the 60s. Its a major starship design, and if it were lower poly, they couldn't do the close ups, and they give the "star" of the show quite a showcase...I think of all the encounters in TOS-R, this one was shot the most movie-like...the Klingon ship has quite a few passes by the camera. I think these alone make it superior to the original. The relative motion criticism doesnt apply if the camera angle used is from a different direction...

I watched the orbiting shot carefully, let's not forget not all planets on ST are Earth size or greater, it could very well be a much smaller planet. The shot is excellent except at the very end, they could have possibly have made it disappear as a smaller ship, but its a rather small quibble. The planet itself is fantastic and has a few nice details to it...like the hurricane.

This helps show the more varied selection of shots:

http://trekmovie.com/2008/03/31/elaan-of-troyius-remastered-review-video/

Keep in mind its from the non-hd tv source.

Wow, what a difference:

http://img.trekmovie.com/tosrem/eot/old_tosr057_21.jpg
http://img.trekmovie.com/tosrem/eot/new_tosr057_21.jpg

In HD:

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/thumbnails.php?album=72&page=81

RAMA

 

[evilnate]

I took a look at the VFX reel. I don't think the Klingon ship is a lower poly model than any other they use, it simply has a smoothed out detail--even though it adds some detail over the original 60s model--which is keeping with the design ethic of keeping the fx looking like they were made in the 60s. Its a major starship design, and if it were lower poly, they couldn't do the close ups, and they give the "star" of the show quite a showcase...I think of all the encounters in TOS-R, this one was shot the most movie-like...

Sorry, but the Klingon ship is definitely a low quality model. The article you linked to points this out, and the screen shots show it. The cgi model has less detail than the original, and that can be seen in the missing slats on the aft part of the ship. The way that it is animated in the close fly-by is horrible as well...amateurish is being kind to the way that was animated.

Just because in some respects it's better doesn't mean that it is in total.

 

[RAMA]

I took a look at the VFX reel. I don't think the Klingon ship is a lower poly model than any other they use, it simply has a smoothed out detail--even though it adds some detail over the original 60s model--which is keeping with the design ethic of keeping the fx looking like they were made in the 60s. Its a major starship design, and if it were lower poly, they couldn't do the close ups, and they give the "star" of the show quite a showcase...I think of all the encounters in TOS-R, this one was shot the most movie-like...

Sorry, but the Klingon ship is definitely a low quality model. The article you linked to points this out, and the screen shots show it. The cgi model has less detail than the original, and that can be seen in the missing slats on the aft part of the ship. The way that it is animated in the close fly-by is horrible as well...amateurish is being kind to the way that was animated.

Just because in some respects it's better doesn't mean that it is in total.

It actually never claims it's low poly at all. The lack of overall detail (again, despite having more details than the physical model) was deliberate. Of course the article is just opinion, just like yours and mine, and I'm fine with it being different. I'm only mentioning the TOS-R when I think it improves the story and that's what I'm sticking to. So I am not going to bother continuing this particular issue on this thread.

RAMA