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Revisiting Star Trek TOS/TAS...

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The embarrassing "bluey" subplot was the only serious misstep. Other than that I absolutely love this episode. The debriefing in which Spock interprets the mind meld is fabulous.

It was such a good episode they turned it into a movie....
 
What? No mention of Star Trek: The Motion Picture: Where Nomad Has Gone Before?

I assumed that Uhura re-learned Swahili first. Nobody ever seemed to address that Uhura doesn't have any real memories from before this episode anymore. I don't recall ever reading a novel or story that mentioned that she doesn't remember her childhood. That guy from "Man Trap"? Gone. At best her entire life is remembered second hand. Modern television would have made this a season-long story arc.

It's a good episode, but boy would I have liked to have seen the "Year in Review" headlines in the Federation news services that year! Entire solar systems lost in Doomsday Machine, Changeling, and Immunity Syndrome. Three (four?) Constitution class starships reduced to wreckage or at least lost all hands. What other planet-wide catastrophes? And while the Enterprise gang is certainly surprised by these events, everybody pretty much takes it in stride.

It's a dangerous galaxy, I guess.
 
We have to question the reliability of Nomad because we see it commit errors that it shouldn't have missed. The big one is scanning Kirk's medical records. What, it didn't think of accessing Kirk's personal record either? That alone should have told it that Kirk wasn't its creator. But even after scanning the records Nomad still believes Kirk is its creator.

And I still question what happened to Uhura. She couldn't have relearned Swahili or even rudimentary English if her mind had been literally wiped clean to that of a newborn. No, something else happened and Nomad didn't catch the difference.
 
And I still question what happened to Uhura. She couldn't have relearned Swahili or even rudimentary English if her mind had been literally wiped clean to that of a newborn. No, something else happened and Nomad didn't catch the difference.

Maybe in the future they have ways of helping people learn more quickly. Or perhaps at least helping adults learn more quickly?
 
“Wolf In The Fold” ***

Chief Engineer Scott is accused of murdering several women.

One thing about ClassicTrek, even when it's run-of-the-mill overall it's never boring. :lol:

Redjac: "Die, die, die, everybody die!" :lol:

This is a fun episode overall, but it suffers from something inescapable: the passage of time. By that I mean that over the years we've been inundated with police procedural shows detailing how crime investigation methods have evolved. And there's every reason to believe that investigation techniques will continue to improve. And yet here we have a number of murders set in the far future and we have nothing as simple as DNA analysis, blood spatter patterns, scene reconstruction and all many of detailed tests. Part of me kept hoping L&A: Criminal Intent's Detective Goren would walk onto the scene and beginning telling everyone what they'd missed. :lol:

From the episode we can deduce that Scotty was either temporarily possessed by the entity to commit the murders or he was hypnotized and paralyzed in some fashion to prevent him from interfering. That certainly seems the case with the first two murders. The killing of Sybo is in question because Scotty claimed to not having blacked out during that killing. Or perhaps part of his consciousness was still aware even though his body was possessed. It's sufficiently murky that we never really understand what happened. Also, the idea that Scotty supposedly harboured a recent resentment towards women because of some accident also sounds like some male chauvinist bullshit. Then again the idea of Argelius as some hedonistic society sounds like something Gene Roddenberry would have loved. Although Scotty finds himself in quite a predicament here Doohan's portrayal here has shifted---Scotty seems to be losing his own distinct composure that he had in Season 1 and even within recent Season 2 episodes.

One question I do have: Hengist was apparently dead and the murder knife was not in the briefing room...yet how did Hengist's body get hold of the knife? Or was it another one he had had in his possession? Again no answers.

It's an okay episode with entertaining moments---certainly not boring---but it certainly isn't among the best TOS has done.


I don't think this was run-of-the-mill...this was Robert Bloch's best ST effort...originated out of an idea he shared with Harlan Ellison about a modern Jack the Ripper stalking city streets, and he turned into several short stories. I like just about eveything about the episode except the ending...Hengist isn't really all that scary, neither are the psychedelic computer lights..but the set up genuinely scared me as a kid. ****1/2

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/dst-bloch.html

“The Doomsday Machine” *****

A Starfleet Commodore driven by guilt tries to destroy a planet killing robot.

:techman: And another 5 rated episode. Really, though, this is one of Star Trek's finest hours and space adventure done well. William Windom does a wonderful job of portraying a ship's captain obsessed with guilt over the loss of his crew. And they can reimagine it all they want, but I still love the original rough hewn alien look of the planet killer (and, yes, I know that's not how Norman Spinrad initially envisioned it).

One of the things that gets me about this story is its epic feel. For me this has more drama and high adventure to it then all manner of sci-fi flicks with ever bigger explosions, loud f/x and lens flares aplenty, probably because it's well written, well edited and sports some damn good performances. This is the kind of SF adventure story I'd like to see on the big screen. The closest thing I've seen feature film wise (in terms of overall feel) are Master And Commander and perhaps The Wrath Of Khan.

It doesn't get much better than this.

Now in fairness it's easy to see where a little more time and thought could have gone into the original f/x sequences. The Constellation model, while nicely damaged, really looks like it was hastily thrown together---at least a better paint job was called for. And there are even some shots of the 11ft. miniature that don't work very well. And the shuttlecraft miniature is waay out of scale with the planet killer. There is another logic hole: a planet is a very big object and even one planet would be able to supply a lot of matter for a device of the planet killer's size. Yes, it was big in relation to a starship, but in relation to a planet it would be awfully small.

There are also some other questions. Spock's conclusion/assumption that the robot originated from outside the galaxy only works if the course they project enters the galaxy from above or below the galactic plane. Otherwise it could have come from anywhere. And it doesn't follow that this thing could necessarily have been all that old---it could have been built within decades to centuries and not necessarily thousands of years or so.

But somehow the rest of the story and execution overcomes what are really minor shortcomings.

We also get our first look at Kirk's new alternate green command tunic. Nice, but I kinda like the first season version a bit better.

Not much to say about the episode that hasn't been said. The TOS-R is worth mentioning as a major improvement over the original, heavily FX laden episode.

RAMA
 
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We have to question the reliability of Nomad because we see it commit errors that it shouldn't have missed. The big one is scanning Kirk's medical records. What, it didn't think of accessing Kirk's personal record either? That alone should have told it that Kirk wasn't its creator. But even after scanning the records Nomad still believes Kirk is its creator.

That 'error' was due to its damaged memory banks; so I don't see a plot flaw there. Had NOMAD's memory been 100% - the 1701 would have been toast at the beginning teaser. Kirk gave his full name to NOMAD many times before NOMAD went to look at his files. In fact I think (from a logic perspective - HAD Kirk given NOMAD a 'new directive' whe n it first beamed aboad - the xcrisis would have been over. It was NOMAD's observation of the illogical things the creator's biological units were doing; and then Kirk admitting he too was a biological unit that convinced NOMAD its craetor was no longer worth obeying.
 
Not much to say about the episode that hasn't been said. The TOS-R is worth mentioning as a major improvement over the original, heavily FX laden episode.

RAMA

Your broken record is starting to wear thin.

What TOS-R did on The Doomsday Machine was an abomination.

You don't seriously expect everyone to toe your party line, do you? Like, you actually know there are active people here who disagree strongly with what you're saying, right? You also know that these opinions contrary to yours are well-reasoned and sophisticated, right? You don't seriously expect the forum to reflect only the position you advocate, right? We've been over and over it in the other thread. Please stop pouring gasoline on the fire.
 
I've seen parts of the TOS-R version of "The Doomsday Machine." All I can say is that there are some shots I thought were fine, but there were also quite a few I didn't care for. I don't care for the redesign of the planet killer---I much prefer the original design. I really disliked how they did the shuttlecraft bay and the shuttlecraft themselves---they look worse than the original. And two particular things I really disliked about the shuttlecraft: I hated the way it was shown launching and I disliked the red hue of the aft engines as opposed to the white light of the original.

As far as the combat scenes I think I've seen reimaginings I've liked better done by some fans than some of what CBS did.
 
We have to question the reliability of Nomad because we see it commit errors that it shouldn't have missed. The big one is scanning Kirk's medical records. What, it didn't think of accessing Kirk's personal record either? That alone should have told it that Kirk wasn't its creator. But even after scanning the records Nomad still believes Kirk is its creator.

And I still question what happened to Uhura. She couldn't have relearned Swahili or even rudimentary English if her mind had been literally wiped clean to that of a newborn. No, something else happened and Nomad didn't catch the difference.

It's been a very long time since I read it, but I remember James Blish's adaptation of "The Changeling" having Nomad saying something about Uhura still remembering her life experiences. It was only her ability towards expressing it, either as language or that "thing called music" that was erased. I know we didn't see that on screen, but losing her language skills only makes the retraining a little easier to swallow. (Still doesn't explain her remembering Swahili, though.) I don't know if that line of Nomad's was cut from an earlier draft, or if Blish made it up during his adaptation.
 
The thing with Uhura's memory at the end of "The Changeling" has always struck me as silly, and I can't say I'm totally convinced by Warped9's rationalizations. There's no way that Uhura could go from a blank slate to being at "a college level" by the end of the episode according to everything we're told about what's happened to her. It's totally a conceit of episodic storytelling that she does so.

Of course, the episode also displays a bit of rather stupid sexism with the exchange between Nomad and Spock about Uhura.

NOMAD: That unit is defective. Its thinking is chaotic. Absorbing it unsettled me.
SPOCK: That unit is a woman.
NOMAD: A mass of conflicting impulses.

Add on top of that the rather flimsy Nomad special effect and you get...an episode that is still strangely compelling. 3 stars out of 5.
 
We have to question the reliability of Nomad because we see it commit errors that it shouldn't have missed. The big one is scanning Kirk's medical records. What, it didn't think of accessing Kirk's personal record either? That alone should have told it that Kirk wasn't its creator. But even after scanning the records Nomad still believes Kirk is its creator.

That 'error' was due to its damaged memory banks; so I don't see a plot flaw there. Had NOMAD's memory been 100% - the 1701 would have been toast at the beginning teaser. Kirk gave his full name to NOMAD many times before NOMAD went to look at his files. In fact I think (from a logic perspective - HAD Kirk given NOMAD a 'new directive' whe n it first beamed aboad - the xcrisis would have been over. It was NOMAD's observation of the illogical things the creator's biological units were doing; and then Kirk admitting he too was a biological unit that convinced NOMAD its craetor was no longer worth obeying.

Nomad's ability to reason and it's manner of defending itself were intentionally inconsistent due to its own damaged memory and of course it's union with Tan Ru. Kirk and crew get away with quite a bit and do walk a fine line throughout the episode.

Also we're never sure of just what it did to Uhura. Nomad scanned the Enterprise's memory banks without erasing data. Whatever scan it performed on Uhura seemed to have an effect of memory loss, but it could have simply overwhelmed her mind in untold ways as it searched for information.

No doubt the way thoughts and memories are ordered in the human brain are different and alien to Nomad compared to the memory banks of a computer. Given how Spock was also affected, Uhura could have simply been in shock, and her reeducation more a matter of reconnecting with her own existing memories and skills.

Nomad is unreliable so we can't accept his diagnosis at face value, so we're left only with the onscreen evidence of Uhura clearly retaining her knowledge of Swahili and rather quickly regaining her former level of education.
 
Not much to say about the episode that hasn't been said. The TOS-R is worth mentioning as a major improvement over the original, heavily FX laden episode.

RAMA

Your broken record is starting to wear thin.

What TOS-R did on The Doomsday Machine was an abomination.

You don't seriously expect everyone to toe your party line, do you? Like, you actually know there are active people here who disagree strongly with what you're saying, right? You also know that these opinions contrary to yours are well-reasoned and sophisticated, right? You don't seriously expect the forum to reflect only the position you advocate, right? We've been over and over it in the other thread. Please stop pouring gasoline on the fire.


Unfortunately you are almost universally in the minority.

I already said I would mention when the TOS-R directly affected the quality of an episode's story and mention that only when it was the case here in this thread. That is the case here. Comments about specific issues in the remastering I am leaving to the other thread. If you don't like it, put me on ignore.

RAMA
 
Unfortunately you are almost universally in the minority.

Really? With respect to what, exactly?

The Doomsday Remastering was widely acclaimed, as opposed to your claim of "abomination". Even by those who dislike the remastering. Firstly, even the fans on this site who think so are in a small minority, and over and above that, the general consensus is probably 90-10% against you.

RAMA
 
I'm often enough a big believer in "I don't give a shit what the majority believes." because so often I've seen the majority embrace something I thought was total crap. ST09 comes immediately to mind, but if I start a list I'll come up with several examples and most aren't Trek related.
 
general consensus is probably 90-10% against you.
Sorry, you're going to have to defend those numbers. If you can't, that's just your perception.

I don't have access to the 3 or 4 polls I've seen, so maybe we should start a new one in the general forum. :techman:

Add to this perception that the many of those who worked on the episode preferred the new FX and you really are pretty alone out there in the wilderness.

RAMA
 
I'm often enough a big believer in "I don't give a shit what the majority believes." because so often I've seen the majority embrace something I thought was total crap. ST09 comes immediately to mind, but if I start a list I'll come up with several examples and most aren't Trek related.


Certainly true, a majority isn't always right, but there are differing views of quality: a personal view, critical, fan view, and consensus. Your personal view may always carry the day under your roof, but not always elsewhere. :techman:

My personal view carries the same weight (if not more so;)) as both of yours and I think it was a triumph.

Yes, yes we know about your publicized view on ST09 (though I don't believe it for second). I don't really think I need to repeat myself on why I disagree.

RAMA
 
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Speaking personally from past experience I know that if I feel strongly enough about something that's all well and good, but if I kept preaching it to everyone around me I saw that I started to get on people's nerves.

I like what I like and that's all that really maters and I don't have to convince anyone.

I think TOS is far superior overall than what has followed in its name, but I've learned to not bother repeating it because it just led to pointless arguments with no one being convinced otherwise. Other people not agreeing or not liking TOS doesn't diminish my enjoyment one bit.

I think ENT, VOY, all the TNG films and ST09 are a complete waste of time, but for the most part I don't bother reiterating it because it leads to pointless argument without me ever persuading anyone otherwise. Other people enjoying them doesn't affect me in the slightest.

And in both cases (and others) I don't feel myself on a crusade to "correct" other people's thinking. I hear and read people saying and believing stuff I disagree with all the time, but I've learned that it all doesn't matter.

I do know that if you keep insisting and hammering at something you usually don't persuade others, but rather you start pissing them off. And then they're less likely to listen to anything else of value you might have to say.

Just a thought.
 
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