I was meaning more like background characters who weren't part of the regular cast. More chances Mignogna would have cast seasoned actors for those one-shots...
Revisiting Star Trek Continues...
- Thread starter Warped9
- Start date
I was glad to see Mbenga’s reappearance. I would like to have seen Kyle again. I was glad to see a regular Security Chief, but I might have been inclined to bring back Lt. Cmdr. Giotto from “The Devil In The Dark” rather than introducing the new character of Drake. As I mentioned before McKenna should simply have been the new ship’s psychiatrist rather than counsellor. She could even been Helen Noel, or maybe Noel transferred out after messing with Kirk’s head in “Dagger Of The Mind.”
When I look at it overall it seems they were reinterpreting the characters and their relationships some. As mentioned upthread the Spock/McCoy banter was missing. Smith seemed to be getting more attention than Uhura. McKenna was being utilized in place of McCoy.
And instead of just doing episodic stories they were deliberately trying to set the stage for TMP, most blatantly in the last two episodes. And that is something TOS would never have done simply because there is no way whatsoever they could have foreshadowed what was to happen in the years to come.
When I look at it overall it seems they were reinterpreting the characters and their relationships some. As mentioned upthread the Spock/McCoy banter was missing. Smith seemed to be getting more attention than Uhura. McKenna was being utilized in place of McCoy.
And instead of just doing episodic stories they were deliberately trying to set the stage for TMP, most blatantly in the last two episodes. And that is something TOS would never have done simply because there is no way whatsoever they could have foreshadowed what was to happen in the years to come.
IIRC, Kim Stinger AKA NuUhura left STNV to join with Mignogna for the chance of more screen exposure on STC than she was getting. As evidenced in their first episode she did get more scenes, but almost right away her face time dwindled down drastically. I believe only 2 episodes afterward gave her more spotlight.
Sulu apart from Fairest Of Them All didn't really have that much to do at all...
The character that surprised me most of all was Boba Fett Jr who had a great introduction in Lolani, with his expertise on Tellarite ships, then poof-ed away in a cloud of smoke...
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Too fan-service-y. Riley of all characters did not need to return; he was so traumatized in his final TOS appearance, that one would assume he transferred off of the Enterprise after the Kodos affair to settle his life.
I assumed as much. It would have been a very uncomfortable working experience after the events of the episode in question.
If there's one glaring problem with STC its continuing the fan film misinterpretation of McCoy as a constant grouch / "hater". McCoy challenged people or situations, but he was very compassionate, friendly and insightful, yet those traits were generally removed to sell the "damn it, Jim!" stereotype seen in too many parodies (and from anti-McCoy individuals on social media platforms).
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"Too" fan-servicey?! almost every fan filmmaking group are using the Mirror Mirror concepts & costumes, if that isn't fan service, I don't know what is...
Many of the main Trek characters were "traumatized" in all 3 seasons to a greater degree than Riley. I don't understand why some people apply the rules from serialized television to a show that was entirely episodic...
There is a sense in TOS that not every crewman or officer we saw was aboard for the long haul of the full five years. Of course, some don’t make it because they came to an untimely end, but others evidently transferred off before the five years ended or onto the ship sometime after the ship had already embarked upon the five year voyage.
Case in point is McKennah. She is obviously assigned to the ship late in the game, and she references Lt. Carolyn Palamas having left the ship sometime after the events depicted in “Who Mourns For Adonais?”
Bringing a favoured character back isn’t necessarily fan-service-y unless theres a good reason not to bring them back. We can just assume we had no reason to see them in the interim just as we can assume Chekov was already aboard in Season 1 only we didn’t see him until he started getting regular duty on the bridge in Season 2.
Some characters like Janice Rand might be trickier. Rand was a fan favourite who was brought back as a transporter specialist or Chief in TMP (maybe she wanted to be sure no one was ever duplicated ever again). We can assume she left the Enterprise sometime during the first year and returned when the ship was being refit. Or we can assume she remained aboard, but simply transferred to a different department where she was no longer Kirk’s personal yeoman and so we never saw her again. And since we never again saw anyone else assigned as Kirk’s personal yeoman we might assume Kirk doesn’t want or really need one or the position isn’t really necessary.
Besides injecting references and callouts to later productions what I consider really fan-service-y is creating situations fans like that likely never would have happened in the original production. Reinterpreting the characters is one way fans make the established characters do want they want them to do even if it’s highly unlikely the original production would ever have done that. Introducing characters that partially supplant or minimize the established characters or writing stories like “The White Iris” is very fan-service-y.
Kirk being duplicated was done twice in TOS: “The Enemy Within” and “Mirror, Mirror.” Actually four times if you include “What Are Little Girls Made Of?” and “Whom Gods Destroy.” If you include TAS’ “The Survivor” (and STC doesn’t seem to acknowledge TAS as canon) then it’s five times we see a duplicate Kirk. Kirk has been aged abnormally in “The Deadly Years” and again if you include TAS’ “The Lorelei Signal.”
So oh-how-original and fan-service-y for STC to give us yet another duplicate Kirk only this time he’s been aged in their episode “Still Treads The Shadow” (which I haven’t revisited yet). And they bring the Defiant back from “The Tholian Web.” Seriously this was pretty much a retelling of TNG’s “Second Chances” only set in the TOS era.
For me this is a lot more fan-service-y than bringing back a character we haven’t seen since TOS’ first or second season.
Case in point is McKennah. She is obviously assigned to the ship late in the game, and she references Lt. Carolyn Palamas having left the ship sometime after the events depicted in “Who Mourns For Adonais?”
Bringing a favoured character back isn’t necessarily fan-service-y unless theres a good reason not to bring them back. We can just assume we had no reason to see them in the interim just as we can assume Chekov was already aboard in Season 1 only we didn’t see him until he started getting regular duty on the bridge in Season 2.
Some characters like Janice Rand might be trickier. Rand was a fan favourite who was brought back as a transporter specialist or Chief in TMP (maybe she wanted to be sure no one was ever duplicated ever again). We can assume she left the Enterprise sometime during the first year and returned when the ship was being refit. Or we can assume she remained aboard, but simply transferred to a different department where she was no longer Kirk’s personal yeoman and so we never saw her again. And since we never again saw anyone else assigned as Kirk’s personal yeoman we might assume Kirk doesn’t want or really need one or the position isn’t really necessary.
Besides injecting references and callouts to later productions what I consider really fan-service-y is creating situations fans like that likely never would have happened in the original production. Reinterpreting the characters is one way fans make the established characters do want they want them to do even if it’s highly unlikely the original production would ever have done that. Introducing characters that partially supplant or minimize the established characters or writing stories like “The White Iris” is very fan-service-y.
Kirk being duplicated was done twice in TOS: “The Enemy Within” and “Mirror, Mirror.” Actually four times if you include “What Are Little Girls Made Of?” and “Whom Gods Destroy.” If you include TAS’ “The Survivor” (and STC doesn’t seem to acknowledge TAS as canon) then it’s five times we see a duplicate Kirk. Kirk has been aged abnormally in “The Deadly Years” and again if you include TAS’ “The Lorelei Signal.”
So oh-how-original and fan-service-y for STC to give us yet another duplicate Kirk only this time he’s been aged in their episode “Still Treads The Shadow” (which I haven’t revisited yet). And they bring the Defiant back from “The Tholian Web.” Seriously this was pretty much a retelling of TNG’s “Second Chances” only set in the TOS era.
For me this is a lot more fan-service-y than bringing back a character we haven’t seen since TOS’ first or second season.
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At least "Mirror, Mirror" left something--Spock considering changing the empire--that was an interesting "what could be" for another story. Kevin Riley is not. He was initially comic relief in one episode, then tied to Kirk's backstory in another, but he did not offer much more than that. In fact. Sulu (a recurring character) could have been the other 1701 crew member who survived Kodos' massacre. At least he would have been established as a fixture on the ship (and perhaps build on his being a survivor since he would be around) more than the originally one-and-done Riley...until he was written into TCOTK.
A point i've always accepted about TOS; characters seen a couple of times such as Farrell or Riley, or those with more appearances such as Rand (in her case i'm strictly talking about the character, not the BTS abuses suffered by Whitney) appear to be those who--in universe--transferred from the 1701. It happens.
If ever a missed opportunity to bring a character back on TOS or add her to STC existed, it was in the form of Lt. Charlene Masters from "The Altenative Factor", who--in just a single episode--displayed far more potential and range than many of the occasional recurring characters such as Rand or Riley.
In Riley's case, I cannot see a good reason to bring him back.
A failing of STC. Pound for pound, TAS quite obviously plays like a 4th and 5th season of TOS more than any fan film, including the strong STC.
The fatal flaw in your argument is that the only reason Kevin Riley offered either of those two, independent things is because he was written that way. Ergo, he could just as easily been written to offer a third something in the service of the plot and story, and fleshed out if necessary. It could have been anything.
In many ways, the secondary characters were fungible (see for example how Janice Rand was rewritten to be Helen Noel; rewrite a few lines and "Dagger of the Mind" works just as well* with Janice in place of Helen).
* - Admittedly, maybe it could have worked even better with Janice instead of Helen, since Janice wouldn't necessarily share Helen's psychiatric training, which could have provided at least a nominally better excuse for mixing personal elements into the experiment with the neural neutralizer on Kirk.
Riley's second appearance was originally to be a different character, but when the same actor was cast, they just changed it to Riley.
Thank you. That underscores the point all the more.
Well, the character was originally supposed to be Rand, but she was rewritten to be Noel
By the way, the Orion Press Fanzines website has no domain right now, so looking there for early draft scripts or discussion of them is presently not an option [thread].
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Dagger was filmed before Grace left the series. No doubt the character was changed because having Rand in that role as written would complicate the relationship. As much as Rand was conceived as an unrequited love interest, this would have been pushing it.
I find myself agreeing with a lot of this thread. I enjoyed STC as it went on, but am also of the mind that any fan series claiming to be a LEGIT addition season needs to work within the parameters of what season 4 would have brought; no references to future events, few to no callbacks, etc.
The finale was awash in things that a final episode of TOS would never have done (like put Shatner in a TMP uniform). Early fan films in the TOS era would always irk me by using movie era music. I get it, we allllll love Goldsmith's Klingon theme, and Horner's TWOK scores are thrilling, but they don't belong in TOS.
Once fan films began composing their own music, it got better.
They went with Smith because she was actually holding Gary's hand when he was zapped. While revisiting the pilot was again something the original series wouldn't spend a lot of time on, the choice to use Smith made sense.
From Memory Alpha [link]:
Intended to appear in far more episodes than she ultimately did, Whitney's Yeoman Rand was written out of several episodes, and ultimately dropped from the series after eight episodes. Her last on-screen appearance in the original Star Trek series is at the end of the episode "The Conscience of the King" when she exits the turbolift and gives a cold stare to Lenore Karidian. The following episode, her character is replaced by Dr. Helen Noel in "Dagger of the Mind".
Perhaps this passage is in error. Whatever the exact sequence, Whitney was about to be axed. But I'll just strike the remark, because the reason why the character was changed isn't important to the points in that post.
Memory Alpha also says [link]:
The part of Helen Noel was originally written for Grace Lee Whitney's character Janice Rand; however, producers wanted to avoid showing Kirk becoming involved with her, and Whitney was already on the verge of leaving the show due to personal problems on the set. (The Star Trek Compendium, 4th ed., p.41)
Personally, I'd think this has to be taken in context with the premise that (again, whatever the exact sequence) Rand's departure was all but imminent and certain. I'd think, if a character is about to get written out of the show, one wouldn't want to invest screen time developing her more than necessary. Any hesitancy producers might have had regarding Kirk getting involved with any of his female crew didn't stop the show from having Kirk and Helen become involved to the degree that they did, with Kirk under the influence of the neural neutralizer and Helen having concocted a fantasy of the Christmas party. And it didn't stop Rand from admitting that she'd wanted Kirk to notice her legs in "Miri".
I've asked Fact Trek if they have any information regarding this [link]. Perhaps they can set the record straight!
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Which means Riley was not so significant that he was even considered for a second appearance. He was comic relief in his first appearance, and one cannot use what was written for someone else in TCOTK as any foundation for Riley to return as if he was a character in development (e.g. what Chekov would be).
This.
Smith was not a random choice. Additionally, if she's served on the 1701 for 5 years, she was not going to behave in the same way as seen in WNMHGB.
"Come Not Between The Dragons" - 3/5
Stardate 6257.4 - An alien seeking refuge aboard the Enterprise brings disruption amongst the crew in its wake.
My brain is a bit all over the place with this one. On the face of it this isn't bad...but then it isn't really stellar either. When you really look at it this feels like a collection of ideas from other episodes both TOS and post TOS.
Production wise this is rather impressive and it's not hard to believe TOS could have pulled off something almost exactly like this albeit with a bit more time and a wee bit more money. I really like the design of the alien Usti. What TOS mightn't have been able to do they could have worked around to achieve much the same end.
The energy waves causing the crew to basically lose any real measure of self-control in an increasing fog of suspicion, anger and resentment strikes me very much like the virus in "The Naked Time" where those infected lost inhibition and self-control. What bothered me with this is that Kirk and Spock's usual impressive self-discipline totally evaporates so quickly and rendering them essentially useless. To that end neither Kirk, Spock or McCoy or even Scotty is instrumental in resolving the problem at hand. They are completely sidelined so that solving the problem falls to the newcomer, McKennah, and the guest star of the week, Eliza (so to speak). That seems very much like a Mary Sue story to me and a very unlikely scenario to have found in TOS.
At the risk of touching a nerve here this is very much the women save the day here while the men can't control themselves. Seriously, does anyone here really believe this story would have been resolved this way in TOS? Imagine Shatner and Nimoy realizing Kirk and Spock do nothing of consequence in this story to resolve the problem... Uh, yeah... And Kirk is a bit too self-aware of his ability to giving a "rousing speech" here--it didn't ring true as something Shatner's Kirk would have ever said.
One could make the argument it was Uhura, Chapel and the women of the Enterprise who save the day in TAS' "The Lorelei Signal," but if STC isn't acknowledging TAS then they can't use that as a precedent.
To that end this once again this feels like a TNG story painted over as TOS. Maybe Mignogna and company should have really been doing the eighth year of the 1701D's voyage rather than the TOS E's fifth year.
One other thing that peeves me in this episode is a reference at the beginning of the episode where we learn the Lexington has been lost. This reference ties into an ongoing plot thread throughout the STC episodes suggesting there is something seriously wrong with a lot of the Constitution-class starships and they're dropping off like flies one-by-one. In TOS loss of starships was easily attributed to some outside catastrophe rather than some inherent design defect. But it's not hard to see what STC is trying to do here because they are trying to tie into that reference in the novelization of TMP that the Enterprise was the only starship to return from its deep space voyage. Once again they're trying to set the stage for TMP which TOS wouldn't and couldn't have ever done.
The subject matter of this story is essentially about domestic violence. It's a worthwhile subject to address, but I'm not so sure it's something TOS would have tackled back in the day, at least not so overtly.
Part of me feels I might be being overly harsh with this and maybe it deserves a higher rating like 4/5. There are parts of this I quite like and I want to really like it, but there are simply too many buzzers going off to keep me from thinking it's anything more than just okay.
End note: I quite like how they make the Enterprise look in STC. It is light years better than what CBS did in TOS-R. Also I cannot fault STC for their episode titles—they are very TOS like.
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Andy Farber composed original scores for multiple STC episodes - 4, 5, 6, and 11, IIRC. The scores are available for download on the series' website.
