Revisiting ST-TNG...

[RAMA]

Actually he's at his most vulnerable and its rich for dramatic possibilities which they explore.

They really missed all of the dramatic possibilities of this episode, plus Corbin Bernsen is just aggravating as 'Q2' . I agree with Warped9's '*' rating all the way.

This episode not only changed Q for one time only his character was different after this. They explored a lot of possibilites...inter-crew relationships, his feelings about the continuum, his past coming back to haunt him(Calamrain, Guinan), all leading to a suicide attempt!!....no they really did a good job on this one. Once you feel sorry for Q there's no going back to viewing him as in EAF. You get the sense if he could just feel as humans do he would understand better, and finally..he does. Still, they say absolute power corrupts absolutely.

RAMA

 

[RAMA]

"A Matter Of Perspective" *

Riker is accused of murdering a research scientist.

Another tech-tech-tech story with a murder inquiry mixed in. Previously there had been only three episodes in Star Trek involving a Starfleet officer being accused of murder: TOS' "Court Martial," "A Wolf In The Fold" and TAS' "Albatross." Each one of them was a far better and more interesting work than TNG's effort. From the beginning and even more so as the episode progressed this felt very predictable.

The one mildly interesting element was that of using the holodeck to recreate witness testimony. Otherwise I found this blah.

Oh, there were some rather nice shots of the Enterprise in orbit.

Obviously this episode is Rashamon retold, and yes, the replaying of the incident in the hologram as everyone saw it is a new and interesting wrinkle, but overall the execution lacked a sense of urgency. Not a bad episode, but compared to the episodes surrounding it, a disappointment.

RAMA

 

[Ubik]

I think you're missing the essential point of my assessment of the episode. Both plot lines fail to interest me. They don't really have much to do with each other, and neither offers sufficient diversion to salvage the episode as a whole.

Yes, the Q plot line is the main one, but it fails to engage me because Q isn't played as a sympathetic character. Unfortunately the falling moon plot line isn't sufficient to interest me either. So you have two plot lines that disappoint. They don't fail because of the other, they fail all on their own.

The episode in no way relies on us viewing Q as a sympathetic character. Quite the opposite, I think. If we viewed him as sympathetic, we wouldn't so freely be able to laugh at him. No, the episode's comedy and interest comes from a typical fish-out-of-water story mixed with a light-hearted revenge tale, that is, revenge of the crew against the jackass Q. The episode is entertaining for the same reason it's ever entertaining to see an arrogant son of a bitch reduced in size. The film Pulp Fiction works in much the same way - it offers us a bunch of superior, arrogant, alpha-male assholes, and then proceeds to emasculate them one at a time (by either putting them in silly underclothing, or having them shot on the toilet, or what have you.) You might feel it's a silly comparison, but I'm just trying to explain how I feel the comedy in the episode works - not from sympathy, but almost its opposite: mockery, almost sadistic mockery. That's why it's a great episode.

And then, in the last scene, where he realizes that even Data is a better human than he is, bang, the episode turns everything around, and Q *is* suddenly sympathetic. Why? Because he has become pathetic, and it's difficult not to sympathize with someone who realizes their own pathetic nature.

Anyway, it's a great episode, much funnier than any comedy episode from the original series, except for Trouble with Tribbles.

 

[SchwEnt]

Started thinking about TNGs many A/B plot eps, many of which rarely have any connection between the two plotlines.

What if your opinion splits on the A/B stories, it's a love/hate review? How will you grade the eps? Split the difference? Ignore one over the other? Average it out?

 

[JRS]

"A Matter Of Perspective" *
.

"You're a dead man, Apgar! A DEAD MAN!!!"
What an great line..and pretty good episode, too.

High Ground and Hunted...again demonstrating a penchant for telling relevant stories within the framework of an advanced human society. When ST's analogies hit home as to make a point clearer, strip it down to its basics, its almost a wonder. High Ground is particularly thought provoking, because most Americans had a simple feeling about terrorism even before 9/11, it really is important to see what our own actions mean even when we're not directly involved in a conflict. Even with it's serious theme the episode was more action packed than normal and was just an all-around good production. Both episodes to be proud of

I agree
I think the 3rd season is so strong because most of the episodes have stong themes in them, such as :death, terrorism, treatment of prisoners, getting old, what means to be human...its in these kinds of stories that TNG is very strong at, IMHO
I think High Ground is even more poignant today, than it was when it first aired. Its an interesting and intelligent episode about terrorism.I think its good that they didint include some latex-heads to this episode but kept the "aliens" very human looking.

 

[Holdfast]

"Evolution" ***

I loved the Stubbs/Wesley exchanges in this one. Stubbs had real heart. I quite liked the story too.

"The Survivors" ****

Good story all round, this.

"Who Watches The Watchers?" ***

This ep gets quite a lot of praise, traditionally. I tend to agree with you that it's just OK.

"The Bonding" **
"Booby Trap" ***

Good stories both, but not spectacular. I like the TNG characters more than you so would naturally rate them higher, but the essence of our opinions is fairly similar I think.

"The Enemy" ****
The best part, though, is Worf staying true to his nature and not volunteering his blood to save the dying Romulan. Cool.

100% agreed and pushes it to five stars for me. Everything you expect from "the fatherly officer guilt-trip" (you know, the classic "I can't order you, but..." trope military discussion) is subverted by Worf staying true to himself. Superb.

"The Price" **

Generous.

"The Vengeance Factor" ****
"The Defector" ****
"The Hunted" ***

I'm a big fan of all these episodes. The opening few scenes of The Hunted are just a tremendously fun in a similar superpowered vein to the first 10 minutes of The Phantom Menace, as the Jedi just keep on coming.

"The High Ground" ***

Never found this particularly engaging, largely because I found the politics disagreeable.

"Deja Q" *

The thing with Q is, he's not there for a serious sci-fi story. He may have started off as a serious antagonist, but by this stage of TNG's run he's now there as a marker that the episode should be treated as pure comedy banter in a sci-fi setting. It's TNG's equivalent to opera buffa. As such, I really like this episode.

"A Matter Of Perspective" *

At time of writing I believe it was meant to be an overt sci-fi homage to Rashomon.

Not as good as that movie, but it still executes that plot theme well I think.

"Yesterday's Enterprise" *****

Yup.



You're going through these eps at a hell of a pace!

 

[Warped9]

You're going through these eps at a hell of a pace!

As I mentioned earlier upthread, when you skip the opening and closing credits and you don't have to endure commercials you can get through an episode in about 42-45 minutes. So in an hour and a half you can get through two. If you watch about five-and-a-half hours worth spread over a Saturday and five-and-a-half over a Sunday you get through more than half a season.

 

[BolianAuthor]

*removed by poster*

 

[Warped9]

"The Offspring" *****

Data creates an android daughter and strives to be a parent.

This is a great episode. A mark of good storytelling is making you feel and this one certainly does. It is dripping with charm and humour in the right places yet it is also very touching. I immediately disliked Admiral Haftell and I loved how Picard rose to Data and Lal's defense.

 

[Anwar]

This was a rare case of the token bad Admiral actually ding something to help in the end and comes off as less of an asshole than the usual type.

 

[Trekker4747]

"The Offspring" *****

Data creates an android daughter and strives to be a parent.

This is a great episode. A mark of good storytelling is making you feel and this one certainly does. It is dripping with charm and humour in the right places yet it is also very touching. I immediately disliked Admiral Haftell and I loved how Picard rose to Data and Lal's defense.

Picard practically sacrificing his career for Data and Lal is powerful stuff. I also love the scene where Data and Picard are talking about Lal and Data frustrates Picard into epic face-palm.

"I am not aware of other members of the crew telling you about their procreation."

"You do not approve. Then I will deactivate Lal immediately."
"It's a LIFE, Data! It cannot be activated and deactivated!"

Awesome stuff.

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

Seems like you're enjoying season three pretty well.

 

[BolianAuthor]

Seasons 3 and 4 are IMO, the very best of TNG, hands-down.

 

[Warped9]

"Sins Of The Father" *****

Worf challenges the accusation charging his father of being a traitor to the Empire.

I was a little divided on this, but ultimately chose to give it a 5 rating. It's a damn good story decently told. What I have reservations about is the way Klingons have often been portrayed starting all the way back in The Search For Spock. Often it's okay, but too often I also think they're played over-the-top. I have to say I rather liked Kampek and his distinctive halting manner of speech. Duras was slime, but then he's supposed to be, and I found his performance comical and definitely over-the-top. Worf seems like a moderate compared to most other Klingons, but that could be rationalized by his different experience and environment.

It always comes back to me wishing that John M. Ford's excellent novel The Final Reflection had been able to serve as the template for Klingon society rather than what we eventuatly got onscreen.


"Allegiance" **

Picard is abducted and replaced by a duplicate.

After a run of good episodes this one is a letdown. I really couldn't get interested in what was unfolding particularly because it all seemed rather obvious.

Seems like you're enjoying season three pretty well.

For the most part, yes. But I also have to say that there are some things I have reservations about. The sense or feel of the show is now different and candidly I prefer the feel of Season 2 at least when the episodes were good.

The Season 3 writing is generally quite good and now more consistent, but as I said earlier there are signs of things to come that I recognize and don't really care for. Season 3 and 4 are laying the groundwork, establishing the template for TNG and to some extent DS9, VOY and ENT. The template will get stale before in TNG's later seasons yet continue onward with some variations through the successive series.

But for now I'll focus on what I'm seeing presently.

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

For the most part, yes. But I also have to say that there are some things I have reservations about. The sense or feel of the show is now different and candidly I prefer the feel of Season 2 at least when the episodes were good.

The Season 3 writing is generally quite good and now more consistent, but as I said earlier there are signs of things to come that I recognize and don't really care for. Season 3 and 4 are laying the groundwork, establishing the template for TNG and to some extent DS9, VOY and ENT. The template will get stale before in TNG's later seasons yet continue onward with some variations through the successive series.

But for now I'll focus on what I'm seeing presently.

Ah, I see. Well as I've said before, I prefer the style you're heading into, but I can see where others would not. I hope you continue to enjoy the show for as long as possible despite its turn toward this style.

 

[Warped9]

^^ When I look ahead I can see only about ten episodes, less than half of Season 4 that hold any possible interest for me. But I have to at least start the season to get Part II of "Best Of Both Worlds" which I remember to be a worthy episode.


"Captain's Holiday" ****

Picard's vacation takes an adventurous turn with a mysterious woman.

This was still fun, but not quite as much as I remembered it. There seems to be a lot of nudge-nudge, wink-wink dialogue going on. And some of the dialogue isn't the most original. But it's still rather fun. Once again a Ferengi is nothing but a poor joke---they're not even funny anymore.

 

[Ubik]

^^ When I look ahead I can see only about ten episodes, less than half of Season 4 that hold any possible interest for me. But I have to at least start the season to get Part II of "Best Of Both Worlds" which I remember to be a worthy episode.


"Captain's Holiday" ****

Picard's vacation takes an adventurous turn with a mysterious woman.

This was still fun, but not quite as much as I remembered it. There seems to be a lot of nudge-nudge, wink-wink dialogue going on. And some of the dialogue isn't the most original. But it's still rather fun. Once again a Ferengi is nothing but a poor joke---they're not even funny anymore.

Didn't you say you last watched the show something like 15 years ago? Maybe I'm getting that wrong. But if I'm not, isn't it possible your sensibilities and tastes have matured over that time? You might be surprised to find yourself loving the next few seasons, no? I mean, if, so far, you've loved the episodes that are undeniably great (Measure of a Man, Q Who, Yesterday's Enterprise, The Offspring, etc), I see no reason why you won't continue to love the ones that are undeniably great. And believe me, over the next few seasons, there are plenty. (There is, after all, a reason why TNG is basically the most well-respected sci-fi show of all time.)

 

[Warped9]

There is, after all, a reason why TNG is basically the most well-respected sci-fi show of all time.

I'm inclined to challenge that sentiment, but this isn't the thread for that discussion.

I'm finding Season 3 isn't as surprising as my revisiting of Seasons 1 and 2. In the 3rd things are pretty close to what I expected and remembered. I intend to watch the latter seasons and we'll see what we shall see.


One of the main reasons I'm revisiting TNG is because I don't watch much commercial television anymore. I can't think of anything presently, beside Mad Men, that could possibly interest me. When you've been watching television for more than forty years it can feel much like you've seen it all and much of it is just variation. There's also the fact of checking and challenging what I remember.

Finally, although it's not really a consideration, but some folks might see that it's not simply TOS or nothing for me.

 

[Ubik]

There is, after all, a reason why TNG is basically the most well-respected sci-fi show of all time.

I'm inclined to challenge that sentiment, but this isn't the thread for that discussion.

I'm finding Season 3 isn't as surprising as my revisiting of Seasons 1 and 2. In the 3rd things are pretty close to what I expected and remembered. I intend to watch the latter seasons and we'll see what we shall see.

Fair enough. The reason I tend to feel you'll change your mind is because, like you, I recognize that, by the 5th season, the show had become very formulaic and safe and sort of bland-ish. The 5th season is easily the worst season, aside from the first, and the blandness you're remembering is probably from that season (although even there, we have a handful of fantastic episodes.) But the sixth season is actually very experimental, for TNG, and in the second half of that season, there is an extremely strong string of episodes (starting with Chain of Command, and moving on from there.) The sixth season may have problems, but it is absolutely not bland or formulaic. I suspect, though I might be wrong, that your 15 year-older self may appreciate it more now. So far, your taste has been mostly about right (although I like Deja Q more than you).

Anyway, as you say, we'll see.

 

[Warped9]

These are episodes I recall liking to some degree or other. There might be one or two I'm not recalling. Whether I still like them remains to be seen as it remains to be seen whether I still dislike others.

"The Best of Both World (Part II)
"Family"
"Reunion"
"Future Imperfect"
"Final Mission"
"The Wounded"
"Devil's Due"
"The Drumhead"
"Redemption (Part I)

"Redemption (Part II)
“Darmok”
“Ensign Ro”
“A Matter Of Time”
“Cause And Effect”
“The Perfect Mate”

“Relics”
“Tapestry”
“Starship Mine”
“Rightful Heir”

“Lower Decks”
“The Pegasus”

Although it really doesn't have anything to do with the stories something in 3rd season has changed that bugs me a little: the galaxy or setting has gotten smaller. In the earlier seasons there was a sense of the ship going forward. Now it seems more like the ship isn't doing that anymore. It seems to be involved in a lot of things that lesser ships could easily do. This strikes me to be inconsistent with such a large vessel (with families aboard) that was supposed to be going "out there." Candidly if they were going forward we shouldn't be near the Romulan Neutral Zone so often and seeing Klingons so often. Family members shouldn't be visiting as conveniently as they do. People are going off ship for a week or so for conferences and vacations. This doesn't at al feel like a ship in deep space, but rather one that is rather close to and within familiar territory.

Mind you TOS also did some of this, but it didn't feel so apparent because they continued to do enough stories set "out there."