Revisiting an old friend

[CorporalClegg]

I'd personally like to know why so many people say Voyager did not live up to its fullest potential. I want to know what they mean specifically. I, personally, would only change a few things on the series but I otherwise thought it was great.

What do people mean by that? How did it not live up to its fullest potential? I'm not saying I think they're wrong, I just want to hear some ideas as to how people think it could have been better.

Well, several things come to mind.

The premise of Voyager was:A Starfleet crew is stranded on the far side of the galaxy with no way to home and must cooperate with The Maquis--enemies of Starfleet--in order to get home.​

Within the premise is a concept that was quickly lost--that is, of course, the Starfleet/Maquis rivalry. The crews were more or less lovey-dovey by the end of "Caretaker." Seska became the anomaly instead of the rule. Chuckles was more concerned with getting into the captain's panties. There would have been so much more drama if Ol' Chuckles, in spite of his feelings, still felt the urge to run things his way to the point where he, not only pondered, but planned a mutiny.​

Carey, instead of just saying "You're the boss, Boss," could have resented Be and even perhaps plotted against her.​

There were, of course, many other examples of potential interpersonal-conflic, but there's really no need to list them all.​

By exploring many of these stories, Voyager could have been the anti-TNG. That is, instead of everyone being mind-numbingly happy as they frolic together in the daisies, some tension is needed to make it believable. Life isn't always smiles and puppy dogs, utopia or otherwise.​

So, by actually showing this "anti-love" in action and exploring the characters as they must go through the motions to ultimately accepting their lot, the "ideology" (as it were) is much easier to swallow.​

One of the problems with TNG is it presented this whole concept that "In the future everyone lives happily ever after." And, unless you've been sipping the happy Kool-Aid, this made you say, "HUH?" It never gave any counterpoint; no reasoning. You just had to accept it at face value. And, since there was no substance behind it, the whole message flew over most people's heads.​

Voyager had the opportunity to show us the "how" and the "why": two groups of people who can't get along nearly to the point of war must learn to work together in order to survive. Over time the learn to coexist, and eventually, even co-habituate. Thus the whole "Roddenberry Message" would have been so much more powerful.​

Then there was the whole "Year of Hell" debacle. It's been well established that this was originally meant to be a season long arc--or at least one that spanned several episodes. But of course, the worst of it was the ol' reset-button.​

Imagine if it was much longer. We would have seen our heroes, after battling one obstacle after another, literally torn to pieces and left for dead. All that character development that was in those two episodes given more time to be further fleshed out. Best of all, after all that adversity, they're stuck with the hand they're dealt. No reset button, no starting over, they must find a way to survive--beat the odds. How's that for lesson in morality. Huh?​

 

[Lynx]

My first contact with Voyager was via borrowed video tapes. There was a shop where I live which had the first season episodes on tapes which could be borrowed for a small sum of money. A year later when my TV station started to air the series, I had already watched season 1 and some episodes of season 2 as well so I knew what it was all about and I decided to tape the episodes. So I did tape every episode of season 1-3 and could re-watch them when I wanted.

Two years ago I bought season 1-3 on DVD:s and I have re-watched those entire seasons twice since then. I must say that I still get a kick out of watching the episodes in those seasons. I still get the same feeling as I did the first time when I re-watch "Caretaker" when they have arrived in the Delta Quadrant and Kim says: "We're on the other side of the galaxy". Now the adventures really begin!

Some people who don't know me and read this will ask: "Why only seasons 1-3?". Well, that's because I lost interest when Kes was kicked out. I stopped watching Voyager for two years after that, then I decided to give it another chance and started to borrow the video tapes again to catch up with what I'd missed (I did catch up with what was on TV in the beginning of season 6). But the fun was out of it, something was missing. Then came "Fury" and I quit for good because that episode insulted me. I did only watch "Endgame" after that and that episode was horrible.

But I still love seasons 1-3 and I still have the same feelingsfor the episodes, the characters and the whole thing as I had when I first watched it.

As for the question about what went wrong with Voyager or if the premise was abandoned, well I'm quite happy with the first three seasons. OK, there could have been some more tension between the Starfleet and Maquis crews but on the other hand, all of them knew that they had to co-operate to get home. Maybe B'Elanna was tamed a little too quickly considering the attitude she showed up in "Caretaker".

I think that the downfall started in season 4 and onwards. I didn't like the way Kes was dumped and the reasons for it. I didn't see any meaning to add a new character because Voyager already had excellent main characters, the best in a Star Trek series. I do think that the "woman in a catsuit thing" was a bit cheap, using sex as something to attract viewers. OK, I'm not the Seven-basher I used to be, I realize that the character has more qualities than just being some "sex-factor" and that they actually managed to create a character which is liked by so many fans for many reasons and I do think that Jeri Ryan is an excellent actress.

But if it was necessary to add Seven to the cast, then no one should have been dumped, the catsuit should have been left out and Seven shouldn't have gotten that much screen time as she actually had in the later seasons when many episodes were focused on her. The "Seven's Borg technology saves the day" was a bit annoying too. They should have concentrated on Seven's adaption to human life and Kept Kes as some sort of mentor for her. The two of them could have been an excellent team.

The sad thing with Seven's arrival was that she, Janeway and The Doctor became the "main characters" while the others were shoved in the background. Chakotay and Tuvok were sadly neglected and Torres became almost superfluous when Seven more and less took over her role. Paris, Kim and Neelix didn't get much time under the spotlight either.

The whole premise of the show was shifted from "lost spaceship with a combined Starfleet-Maquis crew" to "Seven vs The Borg", something which could have suited TNG better.

And Kes was missing! A great character sadly wasted.

I also think that the whole premise was shot to pieces with the episode "Message In a Bottle" when they did get in touch with Earth already in season 4. They shouldn't have got in touch with Starfleet headquarters until season 7. It became even worse when certain TNG character holograms started to jump on and off the ship.

I can also see the point in the criticizm about the "reset button" and how they always did seem to restore the ship back to it's original status after every fight. Not to mention the torpedoes and shuttles. The books are better when it comes to dealing with those problems. It is described how they were dealing with alien species to get the metals and components they needed.

And I didn't like that they killed off Lt.Carey and that they dumped Neelix at the end. A lot of things in the later seasons unfortunately affect the Voyager relaunch books which is a serious blow for me who would have liked to read about the continuing adventures of our heroes.

But let's go back to what's positive. Despite all misgivings, I still love the series and its characters and I still get a kick out of watching the season 1-3 DVD:s. Voyager must have had something special after all, considering the fact that many fans are dissapointed with aspects of the series but still loves it!

 

[Mrs Paris]

the premise of the show was never that they couldn't have contact with starfleet, but that they were trying to get home. They made contact with starfleet ONCE in season 4 and then not again until season 6...two years later!!!!!

and what tng holograms were jumping on and off the ship? it was only one holgram of Reg that came on board once

 

[BarryWaddle]

Maybe you're right I happen to know a number of people in Massachusetts! Boston....or Newton to be exact. Where in Mass are you from?

Farther west, the Worcester area. Almost the middle of the state. Feel free to contact me, if you like...*points to profile*

Right on, will do! Worcester, I've heard of it

You've heard of Worcester? No kidding...

 

[kimc]

What do people mean by that? How did it not live up to its fullest potential?

While there were some minor things throughout the series that bothered me I was a happy camper until the finale. To me bringing back the borg and using time travel yet again showed a serious lack of imagination on the part of the writers. You also don't even WANT to get me started on the ickiness of C/7.

 

[MiralParis]

What do people mean by that? How did it not live up to its fullest potential?

While there were some minor things throughout the series that bothered me I was a happy camper until the finale. To me bringing back the borg and using time travel yet again showed a serious lack of imagination on the part of the writers. You also don't even WANT to get me started on the ickiness of C/7.

I hear ya on the C/7....just plain wrong, IMHO!

I think the finale lacked imagination because it was the last season and they had to come up with a quick way to get the crew home and end the series on a positive note. It was okay, but I can se how it could have been better.

 

[Lynx]

If you do have a final seson and know that there is a final episode, then it would be logical to plan ahead for the grand final, maybe with some events which would lead up to it. Not just throw in a badly written episode at the end.

I get the impression that those in charge more and less abandoned Voyager at the end. They lost their inspiration in the middle of the series and it was downhill from there. When season 7 was in production, they had lost their interest totally and were busy with their new pet project "Enterprise". Therefore the unispired efforts to come up with a final episode for Voyager.

As for C/7, I didn't like it because it was obvious to everyone that many fans wanted a J/C relationship and coming up witn the C/7 thing at the end made many fans angry and upset. They should have given those fans what they wanted or simply just left it for the imagination of the fans or for upcoming books, not created another relationship.

 

[Mrs Paris]

I was never a fan of the J/C fandom. I don't know why but i never liked it. Maybe because I was young when it started and they were parent figures to me, so it would have been like watching my parents making out or something.

but as for the C/7 relationship, I didn't like it for several reasons. One I don't think Beltran was a good enough actor to portray any emotions. Second the relationship was brought on so sudden, at least they could have shown the two of them having a meal together first, or even TALKING to each other friendly a few times. Seven had her holo-Chakotay thing, then they crashed on the planet together where they barely spoke and then they're talking like they're in a serious relationship....there are a few steps missing there. And third, I don't think that Seven was emotionaly developed enough yet to handle the complexities of a serious relationship.

 

[Mrs Paris]

What do people mean by that? How did it not live up to its fullest potential?

While there were some minor things throughout the series that bothered me I was a happy camper until the finale. To me bringing back the borg and using time travel yet again showed a serious lack of imagination on the part of the writers. You also don't even WANT to get me started on the ickiness of C/7.

I hear ya on the C/7....just plain wrong, IMHO!

I think the finale lacked imagination because it was the last season and they had to come up with a quick way to get the crew home and end the series on a positive note. It was okay, but I can se how it could have been better.

well Endgame was realy one big temporal paradox that should never have happened.

what I think would have been better is if they approache the nebula and seven knew that there was a hub in it and told Janeway about it. They enter the nebula and get NEARLY destroyed, I mean the ship is beat up worse than in year of hell, to the point that they're thinking about abandoning. Then seven contacts the queen and tells her if they let voyager use the hub to get home that seven will stay with the queen. the queen agrees to send a ship to tractor voyager through the hub to earth. but at the last minute they get seven back and get to earth destroying the hub on the way.

then dammit they would have had a 10 mintue scene wrapping everything else up. harry gets his frakking promotion, we find out that the maquis crewmembers get pardoned and so on

 

[Saxman1]

OK, the wife and I rewatched "Endgame" over the weekend. Not nearly as bad as I remembered and I already knew about C/7, one of those B&B WTFs they love to throw in just to be weird, I guess ("Bet ya didn't see that coming, did ya?"), so I was prepared. At the time I saw it (first run), I probably gave it a 2 star rating. I'd bump it up to maybe 3, maybe 3 1/2: they said right in the ep that it was about the journey, NOT the destination. THAT'S what the series was about, the journey. In that context, it works, imperfectly, but it works. It's certainly better than TATV, in any case.

 

[Mrs Paris]

It's certainly better than TATV, in any case.

but that's not saying much

 

[erastus25]

I'd personally like to know why so many people say Voyager did not live up to its fullest potential. I want to know what they mean specifically. I, personally, would only change a few things on the series but I otherwise thought it was great.

What do people mean by that? How did it not live up to its fullest potential? I'm not saying I think they're wrong, I just want to hear some ideas as to how people think it could have been better.

The short answer is that it never really felt like Voyager was "lost." We always saw the ship miraculously repaired by the next week and no matter how many crew members or shuttles died there were always more around. There is basically no evidence whatsoever that the ship is totally on its own. Many people would have liked to have seen a story arc in which Voyager the ship and the Voyager crew actually show signs of wear from week to week (basically, Year of Hell with no reset button). They kind of try it in the first season with the whole "energy crisis" thing, but that's quickly forgotten and hardly considered by the later seasons.

To answer the OP, when Voyager first aired I watched the first 4.5 seasons. I was pretty much watching them just because I'm a completist and couldn't imagine not having seen everything Star Trek. I eventually got over that as VOY consistently put out what I consider to be crappy episodes. However, the last year or so I started getting home from work around 4 and I found VOY on Spike. I soon realized that enjoyed it a lot more the second time around. I think it was because my expectations had been lowered and I had gotten over being angry at all of the stuff they were doing that I considered wrong and was focusing on the enjoyable qualities of the episodes. That being said, there are some episodes that are just plain atrocious and I will never watch again.

 

[hawk200]

When I first saw Voyager I lived out in the middle of nowhere and had to depend on a 100 ft. tower to pick up the distant station that carried Voyager.

Most of the time the picture was so bad I could hardly see it,that was when it did not go off the air in the middle of the episode.
They kept changing the time that they brodcasted it.It was hard to enjoy it,but even so I did.

Later they came out on VHS which I bought one at a time.What a joy to see them,clear and complete.

Then they came out on DVD.I bought a 51'' TV ,and looked at them, How great it was..

Since then I got Dish and look at them again on Spike.
Every time that I see them they get better and better.
Long live Voyager.


H200

 

[MiralParis]

I love hearing everyone's opinions on how Voyager could have been better and thus living up to its potential.

I suppose that I am not someone that is overly critical of anything so when things on Voyager didn't make sense I just rolled with it. I always did wonder how they kept the ship in such tip top shape most of the time despite having just been attacking and the ship having sustained major damage.

I remeber in the episode "the void" that Voyager had major issues with enegry supplies because they had no access to "duterium (sp?)" which they said they could get almost anywhere outside the void. So I think in a sense they did address the energy issues....Voyager is essentially a self-contained world, for the most part.

 

[KayArr]

I'm into season 6 dvds now, and loving it. Great cast, great crew, usually pretty decent stories--and some great stories. I'm just not a continuity nitpicker. There's no way to maintain continuity when writers come and go and you gotta get episodes in the can and it runs for 7 years and like that. Voyager's better than I remembered, and I'm sure that I'll be watching these dvds again in the years to come. Gosh, I just love sci fi, I just do. Always have, ever since high school, and Trek, for the most part, is good sci fi. What if? Gotta love it!

 

[Orac Zen]

I suppose that I am not someone that is overly critical of anything so when things on Voyager didn't make sense I just rolled with it.

I pretty much have the same attitude - after all, it's a TV show, not a matter of life and death. Having said that, the apparently endless supply of shuttles did become ridiculous after a while, and Voyager's constant state of good repair was a stretch at times; I found those things more difficult to let pass than some of the other stuff.

It would have been nice if the Starfleet / Marquis stuff hadn't gone away quite as soon as it did, and a few small arcs (besides the ones we had) may have been okay. However, UPN decided the way to get TNG-type ratings was to make Voyager into some sort of TNG revisited, and we ended up with a different sort of show to what some think it ought to have been. Such is life; it's not anything worth getting worked up over. I enjoy the show a great deal regardless of its flaws - real and alleged.

I'm also one of the 10 or so people on this board who genuinely likes "Endgame". The 7 / C nonsense aside, it's the series in a nutshell - flawed, yet fascinating. I've seen better finales, but I've also seen plenty that were much worse. Some of the anger and vitriol directed at the episode is / was completely over the top, IMO, but to each their own.

 

[MiralParis]

I suppose that I am not someone that is overly critical of anything so when things on Voyager didn't make sense I just rolled with it.

I pretty much have the same attitude - after all, it's a TV show, not a matter of life and death. Having said that, the apparently endless supply of shuttles did become ridiculous after a while, and Voyager's constant state of good repair was a stretch at times; I found those things more difficult to let pass than some of the other stuff.

It would have been nice if the Starfleet / Marquis stuff hadn't gone away quite as soon as it did, and a few small arcs (besides the ones we had) may have been okay. However, UPN decided the way to get TNG-type ratings was to make Voyager into some sort of TNG revisited, and we ended up with a different sort of show to what some think it ought to have been. Such is life; it's not anything worth getting worked up over. I enjoy the show a great deal regardless of its flaws - real and alleged.

I'm also one of the 10 or so people on this board who genuinely likes "Endgame". The 7 / C nonsense aside, it's the series in a nutshell - flawed, yet fascinating. I've seen better finales, but I've also seen plenty that were much worse. Some of the anger and vitriol directed at the episode is / was completely over the top, IMO, but to each their own.

I liked Endgame, so add me as the 11th person on this board who does

Because I liked so much about Voyager, it was easy to overlook the minor flaws that existed. I, too, thought the cast was amazing and the crew was all the better for it! Most of the stories were great and I enjoyed them a lot, admitedly after Kes left things got even better. Don't hate me because I don't like Kes!

Anyway, overall there were far more good things about Voyager than bad.

 

[rocketscientist]

I suppose that I am not someone that is overly critical of anything so when things on Voyager didn't make sense I just rolled with it.

I pretty much have the same attitude - after all, it's a TV show, not a matter of life and death. Having said that, the apparently endless supply of shuttles did become ridiculous after a while, and Voyager's constant state of good repair was a stretch at times; I found those things more difficult to let pass than some of the other stuff.

It would have been nice if the Starfleet / Marquis stuff hadn't gone away quite as soon as it did, and a few small arcs (besides the ones we had) may have been okay. However, UPN decided the way to get TNG-type ratings was to make Voyager into some sort of TNG revisited, and we ended up with a different sort of show to what some think it ought to have been. Such is life; it's not anything worth getting worked up over. I enjoy the show a great deal regardless of its flaws - real and alleged.

I'm also one of the 10 or so people on this board who genuinely likes "Endgame". The 7 / C nonsense aside, it's the series in a nutshell - flawed, yet fascinating. I've seen better finales, but I've also seen plenty that were much worse. Some of the anger and vitriol directed at the episode is / was completely over the top, IMO, but to each their own.

Good observations, Zen. WRT Voyager's state, Ron Moore had a big problem with that, saying something to the effect that the audience would pick up on it. I think it's fair to say a lot of the audience did and it did hurt the show to some degree. Moore, from what I've read in his comments, wanted to make the show grittier and darker and thought that Braga was on board with that. When DS9 folded and Moore went over to VOY, apparently Braga had done a 180 turn around to Moore's ideas, so Moore walked and ended up applying them to his BSG reboot.

I really think VOY could've benefitted a lot from fully exploiting its elements that were unique (for the most part) from the other ST series: the lack of SF support and the Macquis/SF friction. IMO, they didn't do well at all with either. That was a major reason why VOY looked and felt a lot like TNG all over again to me (in addition to recycling the TNG sets and having the same writers and some (not all) derivative characters). I know that's not a popular opinion on this board and I know I'm probably going to get flack for it (I've already gotten some), but that's my opinion.

You're absolutely right about UPN wanting a TNG-like show. Jeri Taylor indicated that and Michael Pillar essentially told DS9's Ira Steven Beher that VOY was going to be likely take the wind out of DS9's sales. Essentially, the plan all along was for VOY to take TNG's place and make sure those fans that wouldn't watch DS9 because it was on a space station, would be there for VOY. I think that making the show too TNG-like backfired on them because the TNG fanbase had seen it all before. I felt that way when VOY first aired, and, after recently finishing rewatching VOY seaons 3-7 again and watching it in conjunction with TNG seasons 6 and 7, I feel moreso now. I actually quit watching VOY on its first run with season 7, only tuning in itermittantly and for the finale Endgame (which I thought was a mess). I just felt like I'd seen it all before so why watch it again.

That said, after rewatching VOY 3 and seeing most of season 7 for the first time, I'll say this. Despite it's lack of originality and risk and despite some really poor creative decisions by Berman and Braga they definitely had some good and some great characters in VOY (Seven, the Doctor, Janeway, Paris, B'lanna, and Tuvok) and they had some damn good episodes. Consistency-wise, on a single episode basis, it may have even been close to TNG seasons 3-7, so the over-all quality of the stories wasn't a big problem for me. It was just that it felt like TNG all over again when I expected something like Magellan's circumnavigation of the globe in tone, or, in more conventional terms, maybe something like Farscape and BSG: just some more grit, desperation, and drama in ST, like Last of the Mohicans in space. They're on the other side of the galaxy and I think the original show had more of that just flying around in the Alpha Quadrant.

But, again, there were some great characters and some great ST episodes on VOY. I did really like the show. I just didn't think it was as good or as original as ST, TNG, and DS9 were. Berman and Braga just didn't want to take risks and they weren't the writers that Ron Moore is.

 

[rocketscientist]

I should clarify something on my above post. Yeah, I lost interest in watching VOY during its first run with season 6, but it wasn't due to an overall lack of quality. After rewatching seasons 3-7, I think my appreciation for the show has increased. There were some great episodes in there. Yeah, I still do think it was TNG v2, but that's not by itself a bad thing at all. VOY, imo, was definitely worth watching.

 

[Lynx]

What's actually interesting with Voyager is that there are many fans who are unhappy with certain different aspects of the show but despite that they still love the show and the characters.

So there must be something special with Voyager after all!