Religion: Roddenberry was right!!

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

IIRC = If I Recall Correctly


I understand and respect your points. But it just seems from your earlier points that your understanding of God a man's relationship to him is pretty clear with its slight difference to the Christian/ Catholic teachings that I was taught. . It's interesting then, that you seem to slightly back pedal.

What I am trying to say respectfully is that religions, all religions, are like visiting the frozen food aisle. they tell you how to make thee food and it will come out tasting the same each time you buy a boz. All you do is choose the brand you like and keep buying it. It's ready-made. I believing that cooking something from scratch its more challenging and riskier, with a greater chance of screwing it up, but it will be more real.

BTW I loved the I, Robot film.

 

[uniderth]

What does IIRC mean anyway?

Netspeak for "If I Recall Correctly".

TGT

Thanks. I was trying to fit it into "In my ReCollection." But I was always short one "I."

 

[JustKate]

Well we all have freewill (at least that's what I believe ) so it's up to you. I am glad you'll still be lurking. I am hopeful that mere familiarity with the same old arguments won't deter you from analysing the true meaning of the words contained therein. It's always painful to consider a new perspective that is different from one's comfort zone.

Tuln, you just did it - that thing I hate. You assume I have not considered new perspectives, and I have. Please listen: I've considered. You've considered. Why do you assume that your consideration is more thoughtful and careful than mine? Because I disagree with you?

And yes, I've said all this before to other debaters.

And I believe we have free will, too, by the way.

 

[Strider]

Let's ask him, shall we? Mr. God Thing, was your tongue by any chance in your cheek when you expressed your support for the genocide of the Jewish, Christian, and Muslim peoples?

You will notice that I (rather generously) made a point to specify the "more pathological followers" when I argued for physical extermination and/or interstellar expulsion. OTOH, I tend not to be overly judgmental when it comes to individual perversions as long as their practitioners at least make an effort to remain discreet.

TGT

I really don't want to get myself in trouble again, but you're the only one in this thread talking about exterminating people, so let's be honest who's really being pathological? You would gladly condemn me and mine to genocide based on your interpretation of "pathology". That's pretty sick.

 

[perigee]

All right - Let's toss "Star Trek" canon, and stick to creations of Gene Roddenberry. What about "Spectre?" Completely his creation.

If "Roddenberry was Right!!," then do we assume all sorts of demons are wandering about bothering Robert Culp?

 

[uniderth]

I understand and respect your points. But it just seems from your earlier points that your understanding of God a man's relationship to him is pretty clear with its slight difference to the Christian/ Catholic teachings that I was taught. . It's interesting then, that you seem to slightly back pedal.

I just wanted to state what my current understanding is. I didn't mean to make it sound like my opinion is absolute or perfect. It's just what my current understanding is. My current understanding is always in a state of evolution and hopefully progression. As I learn new things my current understanding is affected. Sometimes in a major way sometimes in a minor way.

What I am trying to say respectfully is that religions, all religions, are like visiting the frozen food aisle. they tell you how to make thee food and it will come out tasting the same each time you buy a boz. All you do is choose the brand you like and keep buying it. It's ready-made. I believing that cooking something from scratch its more challenging and riskier, with a greater chance of screwing it up, but it will be more real.

Thank your for making your comments respectfully. I hope I have been respectful too. While I may disagree your analysis of religion, I'm not going to say it is wrong. If it is what works best for you then go for it and be the best you can be with that belief.

For me it is much more complex than being a "packaged deal," pop it in the microwave and your done. Trying to bring my will closer to the will of God is not an easy task. And I must say that I'm probably not doing very well. I try, but I find that I do what I want more often than what God wants.

It's a complex process of self evaluation, trying to do the right thing, and getting back up from mistakes. Just because the "rules" are already there doesn't make it less difficult to live the rules.

But if finding your way works best for you then that is what you should do.

BTW I loved the I, Robot film.

Yeah it's awesome. I watched it with my wife the other day.

All right - Let's toss "Star Trek" canon, and stick to creations of Gene Roddenberry. What about "Spectre?" Completely his creation.

If "Roddenberry was Right!!," then do we assume all sorts of demons are wandering about bothering Robert Culp?

I would love to know more about the proposed "Starship" series that would have used the "Ringship."

 

[Bad Bishop]

I've been stewing on this for a while now but I believe that Gene Roddenberrys vision that by the 23rd century mankind would have moved passed the need for religion is absolutely spot-on correct.

Roddenberry's current views on religion would be most interesting, now that he's in Hell.

 

[perigee]

As far as I can tell, and using actions rather than words - Roddenberry was more torn by his religious background than anthing else. Obviously, I don't believe "Spectre" reflected the Bird's beliefs - at the same time, I don't think "Star Trek" was his bully pulpit of agnosticism.

The problem comes from differentiating the concept of a "creator" versus the bible as written... which I find equally absurd. I think, if you want to see Roddenberry exploring actual religion, you need to look at TMP. A being has traveled the galaxy, gathering facts, but incomplete without the ultimate touch of the creator. Heck, it's practically as obviously allegorical as Frank Gorshin in half-blackface.

The bird's comment about the bible was around '74 or so - it was included on "Inside Star Trek," an old piece of vinyl I picked up when it was released. But a single comment is not enough to judge a man's full theological view. Somehwre in there, he had his baptist upbringing. Obviously, he was a strong humanist - and passed that on to most of us. But ultimately, I think there was something left, as demonstrated in TMP. His attempt to reintroduce the concept again after TMP says something in itself.

 

[Hoser]

what do people think of Roddeberrys notion that religion on Earth will be redundant in the future?

I don't see any of it as becoming redundant. There's all kinds of small references to religion still existing in the Trek series.
Perhaps after the big wars and then first contact, man eventually learned to live and let live when it came to firmly held personal beliefs and religions.
I mean heck, even here there's a handful of enlightened atheists and Christians that get along quite nicely without resorting to ripping on each other's beliefs.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

Roddenberry:
"I condemn false prophets, I condemn the effort to take away the power of rational decision, to drain people of their free will--and a hell of a lot of money in the bargain. Religions vary in their degree of idiocy, but I reject them all. For most people, religion is nothing more than a substitute for a malfunctioning brain."

 

[perigee]

Roddenberry:
"I condemn false prophets, I condemn the effort to take away the power of rational decision, to drain people of their free will--and a hell of a lot of money in the bargain. Religions vary in their degree of idiocy, but I reject them all. For most people, religion is nothing more than a substitute for a malfunctioning brain."

Can you put a reliable date on that quote? I ask simply because this does not exclude the concept that Roddenberry, like many other people, change their religious views over the course of their lifetime. If this quote is from the same period, it is a snapshot we already have. And I maintain that TMP points to something else, at l;east as far as I can scan.

Addition: While looking for a date for that quote, I found this page that gives a lot of background to this discussion.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

I don't know the date. I tried Googling it. Not sure

 

[perigee]

Addition: The above link is a good read, and a compelling argument that Roddenberry remained atheistic - not agnostic - throughout his latter life, but his evidence is based on TNG episodes, which, to my earlier understanding, he had no sway over and therefore cannot be used as evidence of his belief system either way.

Addition: Personally, I am willing, on that evidence, to believe that the Bird had no second thoughts later in life; which makes TMP, and his proposed sequel, a puzzler. What was on his mind? Does anyone have a more-or-less complete synopsis of his treatment?

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

random relevant quote:
Phillosophy is questions that may never be answered, religion is answers that may never be questioned.

 

[perigee]

... And theology can belong to either category. There are 130-some different denominations of Christianity alone - all of which hold some value significantly different - for them - to break away from their previous fold. All believe they are right - zealously. However - If we were to allow for the sake of example - if there were one "divine Christ," a maximum of only one could be right. And 'none" would still be a possibility.

The removal of human dogma and God-fearing crowd control does not necessitate the removal of an undefined creative force.

 

[Dayton3]

Suffering is not necessarily related to a persons sins.

Look at the example of Job.

 

[SFRabid]

I always find it strange that humans are evolving to the point of being able to create a universe...

Nowhere near, actually.

Actually it is already happening, just not near the complexity of the universe we live in.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Let's ask him, shall we? Mr. God Thing, was your tongue by any chance in your cheek when you expressed your support for the genocide of the Jewish, Christian, and Muslim peoples?

You will notice that I (rather generously) made a point to specify the "more pathological followers" when I argued for physical extermination and/or interstellar expulsion. OTOH, I tend not to be overly judgmental when it comes to individual perversions as long as their practitioners at least make an effort to remain discreet.

TGT

TGT, I'd strongly suggest moderating your tone in this thread.

 

[Shawnster]

Read some... skimmed some... apologies if I repeat what has been said.

To a large extent I think Roddenberry was ahead of his time/a bit too early with his views on religion. He himself may not have seen, thought about or felt/agreed with the complete outworking of his philosophy. He married Majel in a traditional Buddhist-Shinto ceremony. For him to do this tells me he wasn't COMPLETELY against religion. I conclude from this and his Star Trek writings that he viewed religion as something that helps establish ritual and custom in our lives; that religion should be fluffy and decorative. Perhaps he even agreed that religion has been a necessary advocate in basic human morality such as love of neighbor, thou shall not kill, etc...

The world of the 1960s definitely wasn't ready for a completely anti-religious show. Hence we have TOS implying a favorable view of Christianity (Bread and Circuses, Dagger of the Mind, Gem) and other non-Christian religions highlighted in TNG, as noted above.

Here is what Roddenberry said:
We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes

A lot of people have reached this conclusion based on the evidence at hand. Unfortunately the evidence is biased and skewed. God did not create faulty Humans and then blame them for their own mistakes. God made perfect Humans that chose to exercise their free will.

It's obvious from history and all the evidence at hand that FALSE religion is to blame for a lot of man's woes. The emphasis here though is on the word FALSE. All of the problems everyone here has pointed to in regards religion can be traced back to the failure of the religious leaders to follow their own holy scriptures.

For example, we don't view the United States or United States laws as being wrong or evil simply because many US citizens choose to commit crimes. Nor do we ignore the United States laws and regulations simply because we see corruption among the leaders. The laws are sound. The US is a great country to live in; we simply know better than to trust or follow government leaders or prominent citizens (athletes, community pillars, etc...) when we see them violate the law. When this happens we choose different leaders, we don't totally reject the country.

The same standard should be held in regards religion. When the leaders do wrong, commit evil, abuse or mistreat the flock; when prominent, upstanding members of the Church get caught in obvious in wrongs; then it's time to reassess the direction we're heading and find leaders that will take us where we want to go.

I agree with you! But unfortunately it's going to take a lot longer than a couple of thousand years to work religion out of society. Look at us still today...some humans are terribly repressed by religion and we're still fighting over who's God is the right God. We don't learn from our past so we're bound to relive it. It's very sad really....but I agree that one day there will be no religion -- we are just waaaaaaaay ahead of our time!

Actually, we're much closer than you think. I firmly believe we'll see such a move within your lifetime. The fact we're having such open debates about this subject, the fact we see comments critical of religion in daily episodic television and movies, the fact we see billboards promoting the anti-religion belief strongly point to the conclusion Religion is on the way out. Can you imagine such debates taking place 1,000 years ago? 100 years ago? 50 years ago?

It might take another 5, 10 or 20 years. Heck it might take 50 more years but we're very close to all of this coming to pass.

False Religion is a snare and a racket.

 

[Dayton3]

From what G.R. actually said when asked about religion, I think he would be classified as a deist.

IIRC, he once said that if there was a god that he didn't believe he took any particular interest in human affairs.