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Relationship between Amy and the Eleventh Doctor

Nothing wrong with random flirting. I just don't have any intrest in an ongoing relationship. Especially after his speech to Rose in School Reunion.

Hopefully Moffet will decide the whole 'romance with companion' thing has been played out. Besides, Matt's Doctor strikes me as more of a "What, y-you mean with a girl?!" type. :)
 
Nothing wrong with random flirting. I just don't have any intrest in an ongoing relationship. Especially after his speech to Rose in School Reunion.

Hopefully Moffet will decide the whole 'romance with companion' thing has been played out.

In what sense has it been played out? The Doctor hasn't actually had a proper, committed relationship with any companions. Even with Rose, he could never bring himself to say he loved her until the very end.

It can't be played out until it's actually been played rather than just played with!
 
People who think we've seen the last of romance really need to take a look at Moffat's back catalogue! :lol:
I prefer to think he'll take note of how unsuccessful those elements were and never attempt it again :borg:

:guffaw: :guffaw: :guffaw: :guffaw: :guffaw:

Yeah, right, two Hugo Awards, a Hugo nomination, huge ratings, critical acclaim, and inheriting the showrunner position.

Yep, Moffat's previous Doctor Who romance stories (and, yes, "The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances," "The Girl in the Fireplace," and "Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead" were romance stories, amongst other things) were really unsuccessful, weren't they?

Frankly Sci I take issue with your post about. There were not nearly enough guffaw emoticons used in response to what has to be the funniest and most insane Bones post in ages!

I mean Moffat who gave us the Girl in the Fireplace? Who gave us a whole host of potential little romantic entanglements in Blink, who gave us the doctor "dancing" and a neat little menage a troi in Jack Rose and the Doctor? Moffat who gave us the Doctor meeting the love of his life for the first time while she met him for the last time?

The Moffat who wrote Coupling, a hugely succesful 4 season sitcom whose entire premise was romance.

Even Jekyll, when it all comes down to it, is about how love conquers all (even homicidal alter egos).

That said, from a personal point of view I'd rather the Doctor/companion dynamic was more 10/Donna than 10/Rose. I don't mind romance in the show I just don't want it to be the be all and end all and I don't want the doctor acting like a giggling schoolgirl again (10/Rose) nor do I ever want another insipid mopeing companion like Martha ever again!

Romance is here to stay in Who though, so accept it for what it is, ignore it and focus on the elements you like, moan about it on the internet, whatever you do nothing is going to alter the fact...
 
I prefer to think he'll take note of how unsuccessful those elements were and never attempt it again :borg:

:guffaw: :guffaw: :guffaw: :guffaw: :guffaw:

Yeah, right, two Hugo Awards, a Hugo nomination, huge ratings, critical acclaim, and inheriting the showrunner position.

Yep, Moffat's previous Doctor Who romance stories (and, yes, "The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances," "The Girl in the Fireplace," and "Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead" were romance stories, amongst other things) were really unsuccessful, weren't they?

Frankly Sci I take issue with your post about. There were not nearly enough guffaw emoticons used in response to what has to be the funniest and most insane Bones post in ages!

Fair enough! :bolian:

I mean Moffat who gave us the Girl in the Fireplace? Who gave us a whole host of potential little romantic entanglements in Blink, who gave us the doctor "dancing" and a neat little menage a troi in Jack Rose and the Doctor? Moffat who gave us the Doctor meeting the love of his life for the first time while she met him for the last time?

Exactly!

Though I take issue with River being "the" love of his life. I think the Doctor has had many true loves in his life -- how could he not, with how long he's lived? Rose was one of them; so was Reinette, and Romana, more than likely, and Sarah Jane. (And, I think, Jamie.) Some of them he's been more open about how much he loved them than others. But I do think that the Doctor has truly fallen in love many times in his life.

That said, from a personal point of view I'd rather the Doctor/companion dynamic was more 10/Donna than 10/Rose. I don't mind romance in the show I just don't want it to be the be all and end all and I don't want the doctor acting like a giggling schoolgirl again (10/Rose) nor do I ever want another insipid mopeing companion like Martha ever again!

You know, I was re-watching Series One recently, and one of the things that struck me was how much more I liked the Ninth Doctor/Rose dynamic than almost any other I've seen on the show since.

No offense to David Tennant, but one of the things I loved about Nine was this sense of the Doctor as this mysterious, world-weary, working class revolutionary -- the sort of man you'd picture coming into a company town on an old motorcycle, kicking up a fuss and leading a miner's strike before swanning off. It kind of reminded me of this sort of Che Guevarra/Motorcycle Diaries-type figure, of this sort of wandering revolutionary who needs this young, down-to-Earth girl to bring him back to reality and keep him from losing himself in his rage.

Mind you, I'm not someone who thinks Che Guevarra was the morally upright Marxist hero many like to paint him as -- I consider him a mass murderer, particularly considering his actions during the early Castro regime -- but the image of Che as this sort of romantic revolutionary has an undeniable appeal, and I think the Ninth Doctor played into that with his leather jacket, haunted attitude, and working-class accent.

That's one thing I'm a little weary about with the upcoming Eleventh Doctor -- he seems so much more like a stuck-up Oxbridge R.P. Englishman from an ivory tower than the working class revolutionary vibe that the Doctor used to have. I'm hoping that the Oxbridge professor look will hide a more revolutionary attitude underneath -- maybe he's the sort of professor who has his students read Marx and Engels and organize student unions instead?

But either way, that dynamic in Series One, of two sides of the working class being embodied in the Doctor and Rose, is something that I'm missing and hope we see more of, somehow.
 
Just for the record Moffat has won three Hugos not two.

Yes, but we were specifically discussing how successful Moffat's depictions of the Doctor as a romantic/sexual being have been; Moffat's first two Hugos were for episodes where this applies ("The Empty Child"/"The Doctor Dances" and "The Girl in the Fireplace"). But his third Hugo was for "Blink," in which the idea of the Doctor as a sexual being never comes into play, so it wasn't applicable to the question of how successful Moffat's depiction of the Doctor as a sexual being has been.
 
Sci, I think in every incarnation the Doctor has been a rebel. Even at his poshest (I dunno, PertweeI'd say but happy if people disagree with me?) he had a healthy rebellious streak when it came to authority, although he clearly had some respect for UNIT and co.

I don't see why he has to be working class to be a working class hero anyway. Frankly the Doctor should be a hero to all irrespective of class or wealth.

And comparing the Doctor to Che? Slightly offensive that!
 
Sci, I think in every incarnation the Doctor has been a rebel.

A rebel? Sure, to a point. But an out and out revolutionary? I'm not so sure. The First Doctor, for instance, certainly seemed to be putting on airs of traditional authority and classism.

One of the things that interested me about Nine was that he had very little trouble coming in and overthrowing an entire culture if he felt it was sufficiently immoral (e.g., "The Long Game"). So far as I can tell, most of the other Doctors are a bit more evolutionary rather than revolutionary in their attitudes -- they're more likely to try to fix a specific part of a culture rather than toss the whole thing out the airlock the way Nine would.

I don't see why he has to be working class to be a working class hero anyway. Frankly the Doctor should be a hero to all irrespective of class or wealth.

Well, first off, I didn't say that the Doctor had to carry suggestions of a working class background (though my personal theory about his history is that his family was originally lower working class on Gallifrey). I said I liked that and missed it.

What interests me about a Doctor that specifically uses working class accents and imagery is the suggestion it carries for radical egalitarianism -- for the abolition of the entire concept of class. After all, the hero we're cheering for, fighting these corrupt governments and cultures and aliens, who's getting depicted as this demigod figure, is this guy who looks like some dude who works in a factory you see having drinks at the local pub. That utterly undermines the idea that "higher class" people should hold more power than "lower class" people in society.

I'm also tempted to argue -- though I haven't fully developed this idea and am not totally committed to it -- that the audience should have an easier time relating to a character that uses the iconography of the working class (since most people are not elites) rather than one that uses the iconography of the power elites the way Eleven looks like he might. It's all well and good to say that the Doctor should be a hero everyone can look up to, but if the creators are always using the iconography of the elites for him, that only re-enforces ideas of elite dominance, not egalitarianism. Re-enforcing the idea of egalitarianism means having heroes who are not the elites in coercive power structures.

Having a Doctor whose iconography appeals to traditional traits of "high class" or "upper class" (such as having him dress like a university professor) risks losing that egalitarian suggestion. Being "rebellious" isn't really enough, because rebelliousness is not the same thing as being revolutionary. A guy who gets picked up by the cops for tagging is a rebel. A guy who overthrows the cops is a revolutionary. Rebels don't necessarily seek to replace the entire extant power structure.

That's why I hope that Eleven has a bit more of an edge to him than Ten did. Ten may have deposed the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom in his first episode, but he didn't actually abolish the entire United Kingdom, y'know? He wasn't necessarily a character whose ideology threatened entire power structures, even if they were unjust. He had to be talked in to fighting for the Ood's liberation, for instance. He was a rebel, but he wasn't by himself a revolutionary -- and that's the sense I get with most of the previous Doctors, too (with the possible exceptions of Two and Four).

And comparing the Doctor to Che? Slightly offensive that!

I think I made it clear that I was drawing a parallel between the popular image of Che and the Doctor, not the reality of Che Guevarra. I even said that I consider him to be a mass murderer. But like it or not, there is a popular image of Che as a wandering working class liberator; it's a very real and very powerful image, even if it is a lie. The Ninth Doctor reminds me of that image (though I doubt that was intentional).

Though I do think it's interesting to note that the Doctor is apparently guilty of genocide multiple times over at this point -- between destroying both the Time Lords and the Daleks, he has quite a bit more blood on his hands than Che ever did. Hell, Moffat even established in "The Doctor Dances" that the Doctor once blew up a weapons factory. Can you really tell me that if someone did something like that in real life, they wouldn't be labelled a terrorist?

Anyway, that was one thing that initially drew me to Doctor Who -- science fiction heroics as a working-class liberation struggle. Certainly that's not the whole of what Doctor Who and the character are about, but it was an aspect to Nine that I miss a lot.

And, to draw this back to something more on-topic (and link it to the horror of the real Che), one of the things I liked was the Nine/Rose relationship. Because in my mind, the Doctor's connection with Rose was the thing that kept him going absolutely made after the Time War, the thing that kept him from going all "Time Lord Victorious" on us by the middle of Series One rather than years and years later after he'd been alone for a long time. If the Ninth Doctor can be compared to the popular image of Che (a moral working class liberator), I would argue that it is his relationship with Rose that made him such and kept him grounded. Without that relationship, the Ninth Doctor -- like the Tenth Doctor almost did when he lacked a meaningful relationship with anyone -- could easily have turned into a mass murderer, into a monster. Into the real Che.

I hope that's an aspect we see in the Eleven/Amy relationship -- the relationship being the thing that keeps him grounded, keeps him from going bonkers with his own arrogance and power.
 
And exactly how well did the Doctor overthrowing an entire culture in The Long Game work out? Not very well. Also it wasn't really he who did it, it was whatshername!

I think my view of the Doctor would be that while he distrusts authoriity, he doesn't really have a major problem with the way things are (certainly on Earth) he just wants someone honest and trustworthy in a position of authority that's all (and see how this backfires over Harriet Jones! Surely a better leader than Saxon or Green).

As for the weapons factory. Does that make him a terrorist? Well depends on the context. Allied forces destroyed plenty of weapons factories in WW2 and I doubt they;'d be classed as terrorists. I doubt very much that the Doctor merely walked in and blew it up on a whim. This is a man (9) who couldn't bring himself to wipe out the Daleks a second time, who wanted to give the Gelph a home, who had the means to negate the Nestene consiousness but didn't want to use it...

As for Ten...no second chances (unless you're the Master of course!)
 
Getting back on topic a bit, there are rumors (and potential spoilers, here!) that Amy has a boyfriend or fiancee by the name of Rory.


Not sure if Rory will be Mickey Mk.II or something different.


Also regarding the trailer kiss, we don't know exactly the context. A lot of the Doctor/Rose kisses were (1) To siphon the energy out of her-Parting of the Ways (2)Cassandra had posession of her mind-New Earth (3)with the clone-Journey's End.
 
^ Yes, a bloke by the name of Rory does exist in Ms Ponds life and here is a picture of him and her from issue 194 of SFX magazine.

amyandrory.jpg


Also, in the same magazine there is an interview with Ms Gillan and this is what she has to say about Amy and her "relationship" between Amy and The Doctor:

Amy is and incredibly sassy young lady. She's not just the Doctor's companion, she's a person in her own right. She's Amy Pond, and she doesn't always take the Doctor's word as gospel. She's very sceptical of him and doesn't trust everything he says. She's kind of this alpha female and the Doctor's the ultimate alpha male, so together they have this interesting dynamic where they're on a par and they really bounce off each other. So yeah, it's an interesting pairing.

Now as for The Doctor and Ms Pond jumping into bed with each other, I suspect that's just some fan boy and girls fantasy and nothing else.
 
So far as I can tell, most of the other Doctors are a bit more evolutionary rather than revolutionary in their attitudes -- they're more likely to try to fix a specific part of a culture rather than toss the whole thing out the airlock the way Nine would.

SNIP

That's why I hope that Eleven has a bit more of an edge to him than Ten did. Ten may have deposed the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom in his first episode, but he didn't actually abolish the entire United Kingdom, y'know? He wasn't necessarily a character whose ideology threatened entire power structures, even if they were unjust.

Did you perhaps miss New Earth? And Gridlock? And Evolution of the Daleks (however briefly)? And even if he did need prodding, you have to give him credit for Planet of the Ood (he was, after all, distracted before).

I hope that's an aspect we see in the Eleven/Amy relationship -- the relationship being the thing that keeps him grounded, keeps him from going bonkers with his own arrogance and power.

Based on Miss Gillan's comments, I think that's likely, but in a Donna rather than Rose sort of way.
 
And exactly how well did the Doctor overthrowing an entire culture in The Long Game work out? Not very well.

I never said he was always right, but I don't think you can say Nine wasn't more revolutionary than the other Doctors.

I think my view of the Doctor would be that while he distrusts authoriity, he doesn't really have a major problem with the way things are (certainly on Earth) he just wants someone honest and trustworthy in a position of authority that's all (and see how this backfires over Harriet Jones! Surely a better leader than Saxon or Green).

I think that's generally true -- certainly true of Ten. And that's, ultimately, what I'd like to see change. The thing I love about Nine was that he was as likely to not like the way things were.

As for the weapons factory. Does that make him a terrorist? Well depends on the context. Allied forces destroyed plenty of weapons factories in WW2 and I doubt they;'d be classed as terrorists.

You can't compare the actions of a single man acting on his own accord to the actions of a state acting in a time of war.

I doubt very much that the Doctor merely walked in and blew it up on a whim.

No -- but he certainly seemed like the sort of man who'd be happy to go on a bombing campaign (presumably using his technology to make sure no one was actually hurt in his attacks) to destroy factories if he felt that they were producing weapons that shouldn't exist. He reminds me a bit like the Weather Underground in that regard.

This is a man (9) who couldn't bring himself to wipe out the Daleks a second time, who wanted to give the Gelph a home, who had the means to negate the Nestene consiousness but didn't want to use it...

Sure. I said he was a revolutionary, not a murderer.

As for Ten...no second chances (unless you're the Master of course!)

Or Davros. Or Rassilon. Or the Cyber-King. Or Dalek Sec. Or the Sontaran Tenth Battlefleet. Or... ;)

So far as I can tell, most of the other Doctors are a bit more evolutionary rather than revolutionary in their attitudes -- they're more likely to try to fix a specific part of a culture rather than toss the whole thing out the airlock the way Nine would.

SNIP

That's why I hope that Eleven has a bit more of an edge to him than Ten did. Ten may have deposed the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom in his first episode, but he didn't actually abolish the entire United Kingdom, y'know? He wasn't necessarily a character whose ideology threatened entire power structures, even if they were unjust.

Did you perhaps miss New Earth? And Gridlock? And Evolution of the Daleks (however briefly)?

Ten didn't overthrow the entire political structure of New Earth in "New Earth," just an abusive hospital. There was no power structure left on New Earth in "Gridlock" -- he just realized it and opened some doors. (Literally.) I'm not sure what you're referring to with "Evolution of the Daleks."

And even if he did need prodding, you have to give him credit for Planet of the Ood (he was, after all, distracted before).

Sure. I'm not saying Ten was a bad guy -- just that he seemed to me to be less of a revolutionary than Nine.

To make a real-world comparison... Ten strikes me as the sort of guy who'd wander into a company town, find out a miners' strike is going on, and uncover some big secret that forces the bosses to give in to the miners' demands. Nine strikes me as the sort of guy who'd wander into town, start a miners' strike, and then discover that same big secret.

Now as for The Doctor and Ms Pond jumping into bed with each other, I suspect that's just some fan boy and girls fantasy and nothing else.

You have a remarkably crass understanding of what it means for two people to be in a relationship if you automatically equate it to something as simple as just "jumping into bed." You do realize that actual feelings are involved in a real relationship, right?
 
Now as for The Doctor and Ms Pond jumping into bed with each other, I suspect that's just some fan boy and girls fantasy and nothing else.

You have a remarkably crass understanding of what it means for two people to be in a relationship if you automatically equate it to something as simple as just "jumping into bed." You do realize that actual feelings are involved in a real relationship, right?

Do I? Well ain't that jolly. Yes I am fully aware that feelings are normally involved for a relationship, but I'm sure I've read on multiple occasions you wanted a companion and the Doctor to hook up as it were, hell, it's one of the reasons you liked Rose so much, the fact that a romantic relationship could very well be on the cards!

Now how would have wanted me to phrase it Sci? That they won't be making the beast with two backs? That they won't be shagging like rabbits?

How ever I phrase it, it doesn't matter though, The Doctor and Ms Pond will not be having a relationship like Rose or to a lesser extent Martha did with The Doctor and good for them. Having a male and female of almost the same age on screen together and not having some overly stupid sexual chemistry and proving that they can just be friends is pretty refreshing in my eyes. If I wanted to see that I would watch Skins!
 
Having a male and female of almost the same age on screen together and not having some overly stupid sexual chemistry and proving that they can just be friends is pretty refreshing in my eyes.

But Doctor Who has done that, with Martha and with Donna. And it's done the whole unconsummated love angle with Rose.

It's time to do something different. Let's see the Doctor in an actual, honest-to-goodness, committed relationships, and let's see where that goes.
 
Having a male and female of almost the same age on screen together and not having some overly stupid sexual chemistry and proving that they can just be friends is pretty refreshing in my eyes.

But Doctor Who has done that, with Martha and with Donna. And it's done the whole unconsummated love angle with Rose.

It's time to do something different. Let's see the Doctor in an actual, honest-to-goodness, committed relationships, and let's see where that goes.

Accept it Sci, it ain't gonna happen, how ever much we harp on about it online, The Doctor and a companion will not have a relationship like you want it. Maybe something between River Song and The Doctor will occur along those lines, but for The Doctor and a companion hooking up, it's not going to happen and it may very well destroy the programme.
 
Having a male and female of almost the same age on screen together and not having some overly stupid sexual chemistry and proving that they can just be friends is pretty refreshing in my eyes.

But Doctor Who has done that, with Martha and with Donna. And it's done the whole unconsummated love angle with Rose.

It's time to do something different. Let's see the Doctor in an actual, honest-to-goodness, committed relationships, and let's see where that goes.

Accept it Sci, it ain't gonna happen, how ever much we harp on about it online,

I don't know one way or the other. That's not the point. I'm saying what they should do, not making a prediction of what they will do.

And besides, who's to say what's going to happen with River Song?
 
Just for the record Moffat has won three Hugos not two.

Yes, but we were specifically discussing how successful Moffat's depictions of the Doctor as a romantic/sexual being have been; Moffat's first two Hugos were for episodes where this applies ("The Empty Child"/"The Doctor Dances" and "The Girl in the Fireplace"). But his third Hugo was for "Blink," in which the idea of the Doctor as a sexual being never comes into play, so it wasn't applicable to the question of how successful Moffat's depiction of the Doctor as a sexual being has been.

The series started with the Doctor and his granddaughter so I don't think he's sexuality should ever called into question.
 
Ten didn't overthrow the entire political structure of New Earth in "New Earth," just an abusive hospital. There was no power structure left on New Earth in "Gridlock" -- he just realized it and opened some doors. (Literally.) I'm not sure what you're referring to with "Evolution of the Daleks."

We don't know much about the political structure of New (New New New New...) Earth. But the hospital was definitely an important part of the system, and a source for many cures. Don't you think it'd be a serious upheaval, even a bit of a revolution, to release all those humans into the world and overthrow the hospital which had (up to now) been such a beacon? After all, there weren't even that many humans left. I'd say it's at least as significant an effect as taking down Satellite Five.

"Gridlock," the Doctor specifically told the emotion-dealers he would be overthrowing their system and to "pack up." And whatever can be said about what was left of the "power structure" on New (etc.) Earth, the Doctor's opening of the Freeway was certainly revolutionary on their society. The power structure was non-sentient and non-responsive, but it was still there, running all those people round and round forever.

In "Evolution of the Daleks," Ten was enthralled by the idea of a revolutionary new Dalek society. Granted it's a bit of a stretch.

And even if he did need prodding, you have to give him credit for Planet of the Ood (he was, after all, distracted before).
Sure. I'm not saying Ten was a bad guy -- just that he seemed to me to be less of a revolutionary than Nine.

To make a real-world comparison... Ten strikes me as the sort of guy who'd wander into a company town, find out a miners' strike is going on, and uncover some big secret that forces the bosses to give in to the miners' demands. Nine strikes me as the sort of guy who'd wander into town, start a miners' strike, and then discover that same big secret.

Welll... here's the other thing. For much of Ten's time (more and more as it went on) he was being hyped as "the Lonely God" and something of an all-powerful being. Nine was much more of a regular bloke, as you've pointed out. But would it be as appropriate for a character being presented as Ten was to make such sweepign changes, as opposed to Nine?

But Doctor Who has done that, with Martha and with Donna. And it's done the whole unconsummated love angle with Rose.

Martha and Donna's relationship with the Doctor was totally different, and it's a bit unfair to cast Martha's time as lacking sexual chemistry or proving that they could just be friends. The whole tragic point of Martha's story is that she totally fell for the Doctor... and he couldn't see it, because he was still recovering from Rose. It's an unrequited thing, a la Marcus and Ivanova - fortunately for both parties, it doesn't end the same way.

At the conclusion of Martha's year, we realize that for Martha at least, they can't "just be friends." That's changed later, but only after Martha has a chance to move on and find someone else.
 
But Doctor Who has done that, with Martha and with Donna. And it's done the whole unconsummated love angle with Rose.

Martha and Donna's relationship with the Doctor was totally different, and it's a bit unfair to cast Martha's time as lacking sexual chemistry or proving that they could just be friends. The whole tragic point of Martha's story is that she totally fell for the Doctor... and he couldn't see it, because he was still recovering from Rose. It's an unrequited thing, a la Marcus and Ivanova - fortunately for both parties, it doesn't end the same way.

At the conclusion of Martha's year, we realize that for Martha at least, they can't "just be friends." That's changed later, but only after Martha has a chance to move on and find someone else.

That's not really the point, though -- the point is, the Doctor's never been in an actual, honest-to-goodness, committed relationship before. It's never been done! The Doctor has never been depicted as having a partner.

So it would be something new for Doctor Who.
 
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