Regarding Fed ships appearing in the new Picard series

[F. King Daniel]

Yes, exatly these two.

The shuttlebay appeared in a lot more than 2 episodes of Voyager

Whenever something happens with the ship - shuttles launched, torpedos fired, warp cores ejected, ship docking with other stations, even only people standing at windows - everytime the outside matched with the inside!

The windows in Janeway's ready room are curved (they're the old Ten Forward ones, flipped), but on the model they're flat.

That's a fucking achievement. Proven by the fact that VOY and ENT are the only two shows that are able to pull that off consistently. And TOS, TNG and DS9 are damn well produced shows as well.

Discovery isn't well produced? Despite all backstage turmoil, the show is a very slick production.

They're still only a tv shows though, so flubs will always happen. But I think it's a hard stretch to put the damn details of the blueprints against it - TNG doesn't have a giant rubber duck on it's decks, and VOY has, per canon, only one warp core. As far as VOY's shuttlebay goes - this is an issue. The shuttlebay works for all standard-sized shuttles seen in the first four(!) seasons. Only when they added the Delta Flyer it became an isse. But hell - that's 5 seasons in, and starship sizes have always been inconsistent, and the alternative would have been no Delta Flyer at all, so I think they made the right choice there.

That's a far cry from having almost nothing match at all right from the beginning. Having no visible weapon launchers, no docking ports, and not even the same standard window shape as the damn sets.

Every window on the Enteprise-D was the same, even though they'd have been radically different depending what deck you were supposed to be on. Picard's ready room window? Doesn't exist and it's in almost every episode. Ten Forward? Scaled up x2.

And DS9 was designed to a specific scale, which was pre-ruined when someone demanded more windows be spammed on the central core with no rhyme or reason prior to filming. And then the relative sizes of it and whoever was docked were fudged to whatever looked good in the shot. Most awesomely, if you look closely you can see the docking pylon of DS9 goes through the Enterprise-D's warp nacelle

But it wasn't Discovery that did it so it's okay, right?

And just btw - the NX-01 has specific tubes on the outside from where it launches it's weapons from. Every. Single. One. It has a lot of those - so maybe cou can say it launched them "from wherever the CGI team felt like". But it DOES have them.

The model has spacial torpedo tubes and phase cannon ports, not photonic torpedo ones. And certainly none on the pod between the nacelles.

As you said, they're all TV shows, and all they're trying to do is sell the illusion of being on a futuristic space ship or station. I wonder how many people actually noticed any of the flubs we're talking about? Star Trek Into Darkness showed us that hull panels can slide away wherever and expose any trash exhaust chutes, or photon torpedo launchers, or shuttlebay doors the plot needs.

 

[Timo]

Hmm. The NX-01 model has open spatial torpedo tubes, but it very much also has photon torpedo tubes - those just happen to have cover plates, potentially foreshadowing TOS era practrices. The sliding covers were carefully animated into the pod between the nacelles, as seen in "The Expanse".

And they did that without actually changing the model in any way (say, quietly moving a couple of portholes one deck up), so they were doing better than DSC (or, say, the TNG movies with the ever-mutating E-E) there...

That NX-02 would have extra tubes even though we see none is also, ahem, covered by the choice of the artists!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[darrenjl]

The Enterprise-D (or Galaxy class starships) docked at the upper pylons with either the airlock on the neck (behind the forward torpedo launcher) or on the airlock at the edge of the saucer section.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Hmm. The NX-01 model has open spatial torpedo tubes, but it very much also has photon torpedo tubes - those just happen to have cover plates, potentially foreshadowing TOS era practrices. The sliding covers were carefully animated into the pod between the nacelles, as seen in "The Expanse".

And they did that without actually changing the model in any way (say, quietly moving a couple of portholes one deck up), so they were doing better than DSC (or, say, the TNG movies with the ever-mutating E-E) there...

That NX-02 would have extra tubes even though we see none is also, ahem, covered by the choice of the artists!

Timo Saloniemi

Looking back at "The Exanse", they do indeed depict an aft torpedo launcher (in a pod designed for a very different purpose) and I apologise. But on close-ups of the saucer underside, there's no forward launcher. Check out the end of "Similitude", where we see Sim's coffin scaled down and shooting out of the spacial torpedo launcher.

The Enterprise-D (or Galaxy class starships) docked at the upper pylons with either the airlock on the neck (behind the forward torpedo launcher) or on the airlock at the edge of the saucer section.

And due to the shapes involved, it's physically impossible for DS9 to dock with the E-D's neck port. Take a look:

 

[DaveyNY]

Looking back at "The Exanse", they do indeed depict an aft torpedo launcher (in a pod designed for a very different purpose) and I apologise. But on close-ups of the saucer underside, there's no forward launcher. Check out the end of "Similitude", where we see Sim's coffin scaled down and shooting out of the spacial torpedo launcher.

And due to the shapes involved, it's physically impossible for DS9 to dock with the E-D's neck port. Take a look:

The thing that is really wrong with that shot is that the DS9 Pylon isn't anywhere near where the E-D's neck docking port...
See here...

The E-D's Nacelles are more than far enough back for it to be able to dock.
(I think perhaps your shot shows the E-D moving away from DS-9 at that point)

Though I'm not sure if the Pylon is long enough to reach beyond the width of the D's secondary hull.

 

[Timo]

Looking back at "The Exanse", they do indeed depict an aft torpedo launcher (in a pod designed for a very different purpose) and I apologise. But on close-ups of the saucer underside, there's no forward launcher. Check out the end of "Similitude", where we see Sim's coffin scaled down and shooting out of the spacial torpedo launcher.

By the token of the cover plates, we have no reason to think there would not be a forward launcher (in fact two, between each pair of the uncovered holes, as per the set). The generic photorp launch in ENT is from an angle that hides the presence or absence of such launchers, yet OTOH always nicely coincides with one cluster of tubes or another. Spitting out non-photorps such as coffins would just involve arbitrary hardware, while the covered launchers are photorp-specific.

However, you mentioned a dorsal torpedo launch. Which ep has that error?

As for the E-D docking, many a ship is shown clamping onto the station in various weird ways, including a Miranda going bow first. Might be the intent is not to mate any gangways, but merely to stabilize the vessel, after which traffic will commence via transporters - after all, the station is likely to be incompatible with most of the things flying around the galaxy, and tailormade for Cardassian vessels first and foremost!

In the specific case of the E-D, the ship probably isn't even touching that pylon (as indeed it would not be doing that if the two shapes really were occupying the same physical space), but merely hovering right next to the station. A similar hovering position is assumed by the Venture, and a slightly different one by the E-D in another "Emissary" shot.

Now, the shots of Nebulas next to a lower pylon also seem to include some hovering but also possible docking as well. Shots of those next to an upper pylon are plausible saucer rim docking examples, although this makes those mini-Nebulas in comparison with the hovering shots of Galaxies. But mini-Nebulas are a fine addition to the Starfleet arsenal, if we don't look too closely, and indeed the top pylon ships never are seen closely enough to count the window rows. Our actual problem there is just with the Prometheus, which is subsequently seen up close and indeed looks like a full-sized Nebula, but then again, her docking/hovering shot never was as bad as those of the top pylon ships.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[F. King Daniel]

By the token of the cover plates, we have no reason to think there would not be a forward launcher (in fact two, between each pair of the uncovered holes, as per the set). The generic photorp launch in ENT is from an angle that hides the presence or absence of such launchers, yet OTOH always nicely coincides with one cluster of tubes or another. Spitting out non-photorps such as coffins would just involve arbitrary hardware, while the covered launchers are photorp-specific.

The spatial torpedoes are much smaller than the photonic ones, the torpedo-case-coffin was scaled right down to be shown firing from the launcher. That's the error.

However, you mentioned a dorsal torpedo launch. Which ep has that error?

I'm afraid I do not recall, except that it was a photon torpedo firing and so from season 3 or 4.

As for the E-D docking, many a ship is shown clamping onto the station in various weird ways, including a Miranda going bow first. Might be the intent is not to mate any gangways, but merely to stabilize the vessel, after which traffic will commence via transporters - after all, the station is likely to be incompatible with most of the things flying around the galaxy, and tailormade for Cardassian vessels first and foremost!

In the specific case of the E-D, the ship probably isn't even touching that pylon (as indeed it would not be doing that if the two shapes really were occupying the same physical space), but merely hovering right next to the station. A similar hovering position is assumed by the Venture, and a slightly different one by the E-D in another "Emissary" shot.

Now, the shots of Nebulas next to a lower pylon also seem to include some hovering but also possible docking as well. Shots of those next to an upper pylon are plausible saucer rim docking examples, although this makes those mini-Nebulas in comparison with the hovering shots of Galaxies. But mini-Nebulas are a fine addition to the Starfleet arsenal, if we don't look too closely, and indeed the top pylon ships never are seen closely enough to count the window rows. Our actual problem there is just with the Prometheus, which is subsequently seen up close and indeed looks like a full-sized Nebula, but then again, her docking/hovering shot never was as bad as those of the top pylon ships.

It's clearly the intent that the Enterprise be hard docked (there's concept art of it in the Making of DS9 book, where the relative scales are very different) and from the angle, the nacelle should not be visible. Had the BBS been running in '93 and screencaps been as plentiful as today, people would be throwing the same accusations at DS9 that @Rahul was toward Discovery's production here.

 

[ITDUDE]

The spatial torpedoes are much smaller than the photonic ones, the torpedo-case-coffin was scaled right down to be shown firing from the launcher. That's the error.

I'm afraid I do not recall, except that it was a photon torpedo firing and so from season 3 or 4.

It's clearly the intent that the Enterprise be hard docked (there's concept art of it in the Making of DS9 book, where the relative scales are very different) and from the angle, the nacelle should not be visible. Had the BBS been running in '93 and screencaps been as plentiful as today, people would be throwing the same accusations at DS9 that @Rahul was toward Discovery's production here.

There was Usenet. Did no one complain? I find it unlikely. Quick someone find alt.startrek.ds9 discussion archive

 

[Rahul]

The windows in Janeway's ready room are curved (they're the old Ten Forward ones, flipped), but on the model they're flat.

All the windows on Voyager's filming model are notched inside - that means even when the outer hull of the ship is curved, all the windows themselves have the exact same curvature. Meaning you could use the window of their "standard" set at every point on the ship.

The same is true for Janeway's ready room window: From afar it's a big square on the model. But look closely, and it's visible that the actual window is in a layer a little deeper, so that the curvature of the set is possible again.

That's why I'm so impressed with the Voyager's model - even though it's not my favourite starship model - it (and the NX-01) are probably the absolute best produced models in SF.

Discovery isn't well produced? Despite all backstage turmoil, the show is a very slick production.

Oh no, DIS is incredibly well produced.
As was DS9 back in that day for that matter, and as you mentioned that station has similar problems (still a great design though).

It's just at the point of VOY and ENT, the production side had 7+ (or even 14) years of experience in making small models work together with life-sized stusio sets. No money can buy that.

Every window on the Enteprise-D was the same, even though they'd have been radically different depending what deck you were supposed to be on. Picard's ready room window? Doesn't exist and it's in almost every episode. Ten Forward? Scaled up x2.

And DS9 was designed to a specific scale, which was pre-ruined when someone demanded more windows be spammed on the central core with no rhyme or reason prior to filming. And then the relative sizes of it and whoever was docked were fudged to whatever looked good in the shot. Most awesomely, if you look closely you can see the docking pylon of DS9 goes through the Enterprise-D's warp nacelle

Exactly!

But it wasn't Discovery that did it so it's okay, right?

I guess you didn't get my point: I said TOS, TNG, DS9 all had similar issues like DIS! That's despite being (like DIS) incredibly well produced. It's just a thing that happens, it's actually amazing how well most of it fits at first glance, considering how much is made up on the fly.

I was just gushing about the production design of the Voyager and the NX-01 - because goddamn, on these ships every single little design element is incredibly well thought out to work. Aesthetically, I might like the Ent-D more than the NX-01. But the NX-01 is probably the best thought-out fictional starship to ever grace the scene, coherence-wise.

As you said, they're all TV shows, and all they're trying to do is sell the illusion of being on a futuristic space ship or station. I wonder how many people actually noticed any of the flubs we're talking about? Star Trek Into Darkness showed us that hull panels can slide away wherever and expose any trash exhaust chutes, or photon torpedo launchers, or shuttlebay doors the plot needs.

Not many. This is plane-spotter level of stuff. If I watch TOS, most of that doesn't work. And that's alright. It's still my favourite starship design. It's just amazing to me hoch much it works on VOY and ENT - there is a level of detail in the production that's simply astonishing.

And yes, DIS falls short of that.

As did DS9, which has loads more size issues than the other shows (part of their ambition - Enterprises are usually shown alone. A space station is often times seen with other starships directly docked. When working with physical models, this creates TONS of issues - especially on a television budget).

Nobody is holding that against DS9 though. Just let me gush about how the former two shows did make it work!

And yes - I'm slightly more disappointet with DIS. Because that's the current show, where we can see all that fold out in real time. And because a lot of these issues had already been solved before, and now just re-appeared, because of the change of the guards, but even stronger than before.

But yes - this is super going into detail. Great stories of characters can super easily trump all of that. Proven by the fact I like TOS and TNG more than VOY or ENT, even if the latter had all these masterclass designs. But this ain't DIS strongest part either, so I have to spend a lot of time thinking about stuff like this while watching...

 

[F. King Daniel]

I guess you didn't get my point: I said TOS, TNG, DS9 all had similar issues like DIS! That's despite being (like DIS) incredibly well produced. It's just a thing that happens, it's actually amazing how well most of it fits at first glance, considering how much is made up on the fly.

I was just gushing about the production design of the Voyager and the NX-01 - because goddamn, on these ships every single little design element is incredibly well thought out to work. Aesthetically, I might like the Ent-D more than the NX-01. But the NX-01 is probably the best thought-out fictional starship to ever grace the scene, coherence-wise.

Ah okay, that's fair enough. Perhaps I read into it too much as another of those "old Trek good, new Trek bad"-type comments.

Not many. This is plane-spotter level of stuff. If I watch TOS, most of that doesn't work. And that's alright. It's still my favourite starship design. It's just amazing to me hoch much it works on VOY and ENT - there is a level of detail in the production that's simply astonishing.

And yes, DIS falls short of that.

As did DS9, which has loads more size issues than the other shows (part of their ambition - Enterprises are usually shown alone. A space station is often times seen with other starships directly docked. When working with physical models, this creates TONS of issues - especially on a television budget).

Nobody is holding that against DS9 though. Just let me gush about how the former two shows did make it work!

And yes - I'm slightly more disappointet with DIS. Because that's the current show, where we can see all that fold out in real time. And because a lot of these issues had already been solved before, and now just re-appeared, because of the change of the guards, but even stronger than before.

But yes - this is super going into detail. Great stories of characters can super easily trump all of that. Proven by the fact I like TOS and TNG more than VOY or ENT, even if the latter had all these masterclass designs. But this ain't DIS strongest part either, so I have to spend a lot of time thinking about stuff like this while watching...

I wonder if perhaps nowadays there's a stronger disconnect between the guys producing the show and the outside company they hire to do the VFX? I recall someone claiming to be an insider saying the Disco art department weren't too happy when the Discovery Turbolift Funhouse™ made it's first appearance in "Brother". I don't even know how something like that can happen (or if there's any truth to the story at all), but television is a weird industry.

 

[bryce]

That would depend on what the window is made from. My guess is it's not single pane glass from the 20th Century.

Yeah I love how they have stuff like transparent aluminum and clearsteel in the 23rd and 24th century, and they should also be able to use replicators to make windows out of diamond...but they shatter so easily, like the bridge skylight in Generations or the main bridge window in Beyond when Kirk shot it with the phaser.

Maybe the Starfleet contractors just went with cheap twencen glass to save credits?

At least in both Star Trek 09 and Discovery, the windows are self-healing. Like they are made of some sort of smart-material. But they still shouldn't break like glass. Those windows should be as strong as, if not stronger than, the hull material.

 

[bryce]

Anyone want to start placing bets on whether or not they have windows for the viewscreens?

Window!

I am still convinced that the E-E bridge had one at the end of Nemesis.

 

[TRON JA307020]

It wasn't covered in static and snow. Some of the overlays were flickering, that's about it. You could still see out of the window fine.

In fact the final shot of the episode is Lorca staring out of the window at the Klingon ship debris.

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ugh. Discovery sucks so bad.

 

[Lord Garth]

ugh. Discovery sucks so bad.

Well, points at least for not using the other name.

 

[DEWLine]

Anyone want to start placing bets on whether or not they have windows for the viewscreens?

It'll vary from ship to ship.

 

[Tuskin38]

ugh. Discovery sucks so bad.

No it doesn't.

 

[valkyrie013]

On the Nx.. There was a middle tube for the larger photonic torpedo.. As I recall.. Now the rear was crap coming out the warp field thingy
Edit:
There was a torpedo opening at the back if the pod to.. Huh.. Maybe they had a small supply stored there..

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[F. King Daniel]

Yeah I love how they have stuff like transparent aluminum and clearsteel in the 23rd and 24th century, and they should also be able to use replicators to make windows out of diamond...but they shatter so easily, like the bridge skylight in Generations or the main bridge window in Beyond when Kirk shot it with the phaser.

Maybe the Starfleet contractors just went with cheap twencen glass to save credits?

At least in both Star Trek 09 and Discovery, the windows are self-healing. Like they are made of some sort of smart-material. But they still shouldn't break like glass. Those windows should be as strong as, if not stronger than, the hull material.

Despite them having transparent aluminium and all that, I believe the windows are glass, made impossibly strong via magical and invisible structural integrity fields. When they fail, it's just glass (as seen in Generations, Beyond etc)

 

[Airmandan]

Window!

I am still convinced that the E-E bridge had one at the end of Nemesis.

I mean technically by the end of it they had a convertible...

 

[Noname Given]

Yeah I love how they have stuff like transparent aluminum and clearsteel in the 23rd and 24th century, and they should also be able to use replicators to make windows out of diamond...but they shatter so easily, like the bridge skylight in Generations or the main bridge window in Beyond when Kirk shot it with the phaser.

Maybe the Starfleet contractors just went with cheap twencen glass to save credits?

At least in both Star Trek 09 and Discovery, the windows are self-healing. Like they are made of some sort of smart-material. But they still shouldn't break like glass. Those windows should be as strong as, if not stronger than, the hull material.

In ST:FC - Picard showed that the 'Windows' of the 1701-E were forcefields <--- Which IMO is impractical and a real nightmare if the ship looses power.

Edit: Fixed a typo