• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Refitting...the Reliant.....

Warped9

Admiral
Admiral
In TMP a point is made (loud and clear) that the refit Enterprise is indeed the same ship as the one we saw in TOS but now in a new form. It's explained that much of the tech in the refit is new and not fully tested. This could lead us to believe the Enterprise is possibly the first testbed for much of this new tech. Or it simply means the new tech has already been established and the Enterprise is the first ship-of-the-line to get it.

This leads to the question as to whether other Consitution-class ships would also be refitted. Or maybe some would and others wouldn't perhaps due to age or some other considerations. Maybe in the long run only a few other Connies were refit like the Enterprise and the rest were decommissioned. From that point onward any new Connies were built in the refit form.

Which next leads to whether Starfleet would refit other classes of ships (such as frigates) in large numbers or again simply refit a few while totally replacing others with the new design as the older ships were decommissioned.

Which finally leads to question of this thread. Given TWOK is set several years after TMP is the Reliant meant to be a refit of a ship that actually predates the new tech or is it a relatively new ship that was built from scratch to the new specs?


Thoughts anyone?
 
Last edited:
The generally accepted notion is that Relaint was an older ship that had also been refit like Enterprise. That or she was brand new during the Five Year Mission and always looked like that, which would mean Enterprise would be the first ship refitted to the new style, rather than be the first with the new engines.

Later Miranda class ships have much higher numbers than Reliant, Saratoga, and Lantree. It could be the older 1800s ships were refits and the later ships were new builds.
 
Some sources, like FASA and Mastercom, suggest that the Reliant was indeed a refit from an older class and that Starfleet refitted a number of other Class I starships, eventually replacing those with models based on the Excelsior family if one goes by Jackill's references.
 
I personally favor the idea that the Reliant always looked essentially like that. The refit was new technology, but technology also used in the new Miranda class launching around 2268-2272. It's barely plausible that the refit constitution is the same ship and is probably best to keep extreme refitting to a minimum.

I also go with the Enterprise was one of very few Constituition refits. Maybe 3 in total with only two finished in the 2270's and the other left semi-complete until Star Trek 4. Perhaps the other Connies were given a more conservative refit that didn't involve nearly rebuilding the whole ship and served in TOS form until deactivation following STar Trek 6.
 
There's two schools of thought on this subject.

First, thanks to TOS-R, we've discovered that one of the registry numbers on Commodore Stone's wall chart was NCC-1864, not 1664 like what Greg Jein thought. So retconning that info with TWOK, we can conclude that the Reliant was in service, in some form, during TOS. So one could surmise that she also had a TOS-style original version.

However, because of her higher registry number than the Enterprise, one could also surmise that the Reliant was newer than the Enterprise and the TOS Constitution class in general, and that if we had actually seen her on screen in TOS, she would look exactly like how she looked in TWOK. TOS gave clear evidence that the Constitution class was nowhere near new, although we only ever saw just that one class on screen. It's possible that newer TMP-style ships were also in service during TOS, we just never saw them.

Spock also states in TWOK that the Reliant is faster and more powerful weapons-wise than even the refit Enterprise, which is another possible point in favor of the Reliant always being TMP style.

The real problem is that we just don't know much about the refit process. Was the Enterprise the first ship to receive it? The last? Were all surviving Connies refit? When did the refit process start? Was the Enterprise the only ship to get a refit? Was it supposed to be a testbed for future ships, or was it just an upgrade that all other ships already had? We don't even conclusively know if the Enterprise-A was even a new ship or a refitted TOS ship.
 
That's something I sometimes wonder as well. It's mentioned in TMP that the Enterprise refit took around 18 months, but that doesn't establish whether the Enterprise herself was one of the first to be refitted or whether the process was already being tested on other vessels at the time (the novelization might suggest otherwise). I seem to recall FASA stating that she was the only one of the initial batch of Constitutions (the twelve referred to in TOS) to survive her exploratory missions and became the basis for refitting other heavy cruisers.
 
If the registry number on Stone's wall chart is indeed the same as that of the Reliant seen onscreen then thats concrete evidence the ship existed during the TOS era and most likely in a form analogous to the Connies of that time period.

I was always under the impression the Enterprise was among the first to be fitted or refitted to the form seen in TMP.
 
A large part of this discussion hinges on when certain starships were originally built, namely the Enterprise and the Reliant.

Was it ever nailed down in canon when 1701 TOS Enterprise was actually built? Is this reliant upon TAS’ “The Counter-Clock Incident” alone? From it, we can assume the Enterprise was commissioned some time around 2245.

We can assume that, if the United Federation of Planets is roughly 100 years old at the time of TOS, and that the Federation has been deploying starships for roughly the same amount of time, that there were many “missing link” starships in the Federation “star service” during that century that we know little about.

There is no direct canon evidence to firmly establish when certain starship classes originated/ were first constructed. There is indirect evidence that at least some starship classes were kept in service for several consecutive decades, maybe even longer. (Saratoga, Lantree, Constellation-class ships, Excelsior-class ships, etc. The Klingons also seem to keep their cruiser designs in service for generations, if not centuries.) We do not know exactly how long the Constitution-class starships were kept on duty, or their Miranda-class cousins. Was the NCC-1701 Enterprise seen in TOS one of the first Constitution-class vessels, thus establishing the age of the Constitution-class and its design, technology and general philosophy-of-use? It would seem logical, but this depends on numerous other factors being established as canon or de facto canon. (Kirk said “There are only twelve like it in the fleet”, very vaguely suggesting that 12 Constitution-class vessels were in operation, indirectly suggesting that, starting around 2245, the Federation began building 12 Constitution-class starships. But this is implicit, not explicit. Since it seems obvious that the Federation must have had other ships — and ship classes — in service prior to 2245, we can assume there were already a lot more than just 12 starships in the Federation fleet, or even that there are more than 12 heavy cruisers in the Federation.)

For what it’s worth, I favor the notion that a starship, particularly a Federation starship, is not a static thing. Instead, starships seem to be organic-like, evolving frameworks that are expected, from the time they are constructed, to undergo numerous repairs, refits (some minor, some major) over the ship’s useful lifetime which could be at least a few decades.

In TMP, Captain Decker objects to Kirk taking command of the newly “refit” Enterprise, referring to the ship an “almost entirely new” and later making a big deal about senior personnel being “fully rated on this design.” This makes it clear that Enteprise’s just-completed drydock operation was indeed a major refit, resulting in an “almost entirely new” ship. It appears that Enteprise was literally torn apart, her components recycled/rejuvenated/replaced, possibly including segments of the ship’s structure. (The “refit” Enterprise obviously has a significantly different silhouette, even though her basic shape is very similar.)

The nature of starship refits, as with the nature of building and/or refitting entire classes of starships, has never been completely illuminated. That Scotty made mention that the newly refurbished Enterprise has “not even been tested at warp power” after “eighteen months of redesigning and refitting” resulting in a ship with a clearly entirely-new engine room, nacelles, wings, and weapons, strongly indicates that this particular “refit” operation (on an existing ship) amounted to the entire ship being essentially rebuilt. The Enterprise’s interiors and equipment appear to be entirely new and radically restructured/redesigned. Thus, it would seem obvious that this “refit” in drydock was basically a recycling of the “old” ship and rebuilding it into a new one. This appears to be the Federation’s way of both perpetuating older designs by recycling them into newer generations, and making use of existing vessels as a useful platform to recycle “old” components. It probably also makes it easier when you already have an inhabited ship’s hull to begin a reconstruction operation from the inside-out, section by section. Indeed, if the TMP “refit” operation were typical of how the Federation modernizes old starships, it’s entirely possible that the Constitution-class’ original 12 starships were likely joined by previous-generation starships having been rebuilt to the same or similar spec. This might also explain how the NCC-1017 Constellation could have been of a different (perhaps earlier) starship class/spec that was subsequently “refit” to then-modern (TOS-era) specs.

Back to Reliant. We don’t know when she was built or what she looked like when she was first commissioned. It’s entirely possible Reliant was built in the 2270s, either during or after TMP, and that she looked the way we saw her in TMP2 for her entire lifetime. It’s also entirely possible that Reliant was a TMP-style refit in the 2270’s, having started life configured in an earlier TOS-style spec. What was the history of the Miranda-class? We may never know, but if it paralleled the Constitution-class, the Mirandas could easily have been a link in an ongoing chain of succeeding design specs, constructions and refits.

I favor the original Mirandas paralleling the Constitutions; there may have been a small number of new Mirandas built in the 2240s, with older Miranda-like ships from a previous class rebuilt to the same/similar spec as Constellation probably was.
 
I was looking through a couple of my books tonight for reference possibilities. The FASA FSRM states that the Enterprise was redesigned significantly because Scott had wanted to mount a newer nacelle on it, and the original pylons couldn't handle the power generated. That led to an improved design for the secondary hull and pylons, as well as a new primary hull since the torpedo tubes were moved into the neck. It's implied, but not directly stated, that the Enterprise might have been the first ship to be so upgraded and there's also a variant (the Mk III) that mounts an extra phaser bank and torpedo tube in the aft arcs.

Mastercom's SotSF does state that the heavy cruisers were the first group to be refit and that the refitting ran from 2266 to 2275, which means that the Enterprise likely was not the first such vessel to be modified. The earlier incarnations of the heavy cruisers entered service around the 2220s.

The Surya class frigates, which served as the basis for the later Avenger class heavy refit, entered service in 2241 with the Avengers entering service around the same time as the upgraded cruisers.
 
Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise mostly reflects all that, except it goes on to say that the Enterprise-A was an example of the Mark-III design and thus has an additional (hidden?) photon torpedo tube.
 
I realize this is veering a little from the topic, but TOS seemed to suggest that there were multiple torpedo banks, at least six, aboard the original Enterprise. And since "Balance of Terror" seemed to indicate there are weapons placements for more than one direction, we can be assured that there are at least fore and aft weapons in both the primary and secondary hulls of the TOS and TMP versions of the ship.

This also seemed to be reinforced by the torpedo bay numbers shown in the TMP-era movies, from TMP2 forward.
 
I realize this is not cannon, but the video game Star Trek Legacy has a version of the Reliant as it may have looked in TOS era, before the one we came to know in TWOK.

Friend Dukhat, I think what Spock meant regarding Reliant being faster and more powerful weapons-wise was that she was simply in a far better condition than the Enterprise was after their first encounter. He said: "She can still outrun us, and outgun us." Think back to before, when Scotty said he could only get the Enterprise to fire a few shots during their first battle. And then, when Spock reported that the best they could do in a few hours of repair time was restore "partial main power", whereas the Reliant had impulse power fully restored.

Partial main power, the way I took it, meant that they had some power from the warp engines, but not enough to go to warp, and not enough power from impulse to go maybe much faster than 3/4 impulse. And they didn't have enough power to fully charge their phaser banks.

Again, that's just the way I took it. :)
 
^^ Agreed. That's how I always interpreted it as well that the E's damage is what put them at a disadvantage.

But I think my question has already been answered because of Stone's wall chart in "Court Martial." If the Reliant's registry number is already on that chart then the ship already existed before the TMP era and most likely in a form analogous to that of the TOS E.
 
^^ Agreed. That's how I always interpreted it as well that the E's damage is what put them at a disadvantage.

But I think my question has already been answered because of Stone's wall chart in "Court Martial." If the Reliant's registry number is already on that chart then the ship already existed before the TMP era and most likely in a form analogous to that of the TOS E.

I shall need to watch that episode again. :)
 
I realize this is veering a little from the topic, but TOS seemed to suggest that there were multiple torpedo banks, at least six, aboard the original Enterprise. And since "Balance of Terror" seemed to indicate there are weapons placements for more than one direction, we can be assured that there are at least fore and aft weapons in both the primary and secondary hulls of the TOS and TMP versions of the ship.

This also seemed to be reinforced by the torpedo bay numbers shown in the TMP-era movies, from TMP2 forward.

And Enterprise had the Defiant with aft torpedo launchers, I believe, when she escaped the asteroid in their two part Mirror Universe ep.
 
^^^Yes, but I don't think there were aft torpedo launchers on the refit ship, even though there may well have been on the original design. I say this because the model features a very specific collection of hardware that we know to be the launcher (consistent across multiple starship types) and there is no such feature pointing aft. I surmise that the refit uses a newer brand of torpedoes that are capable of turning on a much tighter radius and can cover targets in the aft arc more effectively than could the prior generation which needed actual tubes pointing in a given direction.

--Alex
 
Unless the aft torpedoes were the older style units.

They just couldn't find a way to fit another torpedo bay on the modern style into the hull without losing to much functionality, but they could fit in one of the old style systems somewhere around the hanger deck or impulse unit. Along with the after phasers and the underside phasers which we never saw used in the films, but where there.

We also never saw them use the upper phaser banks, but there are also clearly there. The films only used the phasers in one movie. It was torpedoes only in the other films that used their weapons.
 
I was under the impression that the equipment on the refit Enterprise was brand new, and not even fully field-rated. Maybe the Constitution herself was also undergoing a similar refit, but I don't think the rest of the fleet was equipped with the same technology until later, after the Enterprise was field tested.

That leads me to believe that the Miranda and her kin indeed consisted of components shared with the Constitution (and the Saladin, and the Ptolemy, and the list goes on).
 
Some fandom designs have ships that start to be built around the time of the refit that use the new nacelle design and other similar hull features to USS Enterprise, but Enterprise is the first to use this particular warp engine (the core, not the nacelles). Other ships have been testing the nacelle style warp dynamic and the like. The later ships we see in the era use the same or very similar engine to Enterprise. Even those that are refit to that style of nacelle.
 
Y'know... It's all of a sudden just occurred to me that Reliant never had a dedication plaque that would have the date of its commission on it. Furthermore, I don't think the refit-Enterprise did either! We take the plaques for granted, because they've been on all the ships on all the shows, but never any of the movie ships until Generations. Not a very helpful notion, I admit, but still somewhat perplexing...
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top