Refitting...the Reliant.....

[Phantom]

And Enterprise had the Defiant with aft torpedo launchers, I believe, when she escaped the asteroid in their two part Mirror Universe ep.

She did indeed...and the fanboys all need to change underwear when she used them...

Y'know... It's all of a sudden just occurred to me that Reliant never had a dedication plaque that would have the date of its commission on it. Furthermore, I don't think the refit-Enterprise did either! We take the plaques for granted, because they've been on all the ships on all the shows, but never any of the movie ships until Generations. Not a very helpful notion, I admit, but still somewhat perplexing...

I can't find one for Reliant or Enteprise, but the E-A had one (two versions actually)

http://en.memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Enterprise_dedication_plaque

 

[Dukhat]

Y'know... It's all of a sudden just occurred to me that Reliant never had a dedication plaque that would have the date of its commission on it. Furthermore, I don't think the refit-Enterprise did either! We take the plaques for granted, because they've been on all the ships on all the shows, but never any of the movie ships until Generations. Not a very helpful notion, I admit, but still somewhat perplexing...

No, the Reliant and the TMP Enterprise did not have plaques. As a matter of fact, the Reliant never even had an official class name until TNG's "Night Terrors," when the Brattain's plague info gave "Miranda" class for the ship.

 

[137th Gebirg]

^^^ Heh...and to this day I still occasionally see an argument pop up over what class the refit belonged to (Constitution-class, Enterprise-class or Constitution-II), as there are also a number of conflicting data points on that very sore and well-trodden subject! I usually go run and hide whenever it pops up in the Trek Tech sub-forum.

 

[B.J.]

^^^ Heh...and to this day I still occasionally see an argument pop up over what class the refit belonged to (Constitution-class, Enterprise-class or Constitution-II), as there are also a number of conflicting data points on that very sore and well-trodden subject! I usually go run and hide whenever it pops up in the Trek Tech sub-forum.

You forgot Starship class!

 

[Unicron]

^^^ Heh...and to this day I still occasionally see an argument pop up over what class the refit belonged to (Constitution-class, Enterprise-class or Constitution-II), as there are also a number of conflicting data points on that very sore and well-trodden subject! I usually go run and hide whenever it pops up in the Trek Tech sub-forum.

That's why I personally like to include all of them as smaller subclasses and variants in my headcanon, since I think it can be done.

 

[Albertese]

^^^ Me too!

In fact, I'm still perfectly comfortable assigning the Reliant to the Avenger-class and having the Miranda-class be a later, 24th Century variant on the hull.

YMMV, of course.

--Alex

 

[Unicron]

To me, that's another viable option since the Miranda term wasn't used before TNG. One could just as easily assume it's the model uprated for that time period.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Or that there are multiple starships of different classes that just happen to look really similar except for little differences that aren't obvious to the casual observer. Kinda like how the Spruance and Kidd class destroyers are basically the same ships with slightly different radar/weapons/electronics loadouts.

Or the modern Atago/Kongo class destroyers compared to the Arleigh-Burke class. All three ships basically LOOK the same, but carry different weapons and technology for very different kinds of missions.

And some weird shit happens in aerospace sometimes. The Mitsubishi F2, for example, is basically a F-16 built slightly larger; suppose the Miranda class is just an Avenger with thinner armor and a saucer reduced in size by 15%? I mean, we already know (or have reason to believe) that the Klingons build at least two different sizes of birds of prey and there are POSSIBLY two different sizes for the Oberth design. Perhaps the Mirandas are just tiny Avengers?

 

[Dukhat]

What really throws a monkey-wrench into the works though, is the complete arbitrariness of class "variants."

1. The Excelsior and the Enterprise-B, despite several outward differences, are both Excelsior class starships.

2. The Reliant and the Bozeman, despite several outward differences, are the Miranda class and the Soyuz class, respectively.

Why is one set of ships the same class, while the other set of ships is not?

 

[137th Gebirg]

^^^ To add to that, would Sisko's Saratoga, the sans-rollbar Lantree "supply ship", the AWAX-dish-mounted Antares, the extra-impulse-drive-in-the-weapons-pod Tian-An-Men and the unknown-name 4-engined desk model also be considered of the Miranda class or far enough modified to be in a class of their own, so to speak?

I won't even try to get into the built, but never filmed, thing-named-Trieste.

 

[Dukhat]

^^^ To add to that, would Sisko's Saratoga, the sans-rollbar Lantree "supply ship", the AWAX-dish-mounted Antares, the extra-impulse-drive-in-the-weapons-pod Tian-An-Men and the unknown-name 4-engined desk model also be considered of the Miranda class or far enough modified to be in a class of their own, so to speak?

You forgot the ship in "Way of the Warrior" mistakenly referred to as the Trial, but can clearly be seen to have its weapons pod rollbar on backwards:

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net...rialDS9.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20140605013406

 

[Ithekro]

I've come to looks at some class names as the blanket catch all name, while there may also be more specific class names for individual ships

The Essex-class aircraft carrier is the usual name for the 24 aircraft carriers built during World War II. But by the end of their service life, there were I think six or more class names for those same ships based on the variety of modifications and refits and designated purpose over the nearly 50 years of service.

Other cruisers of that era would be rebuilt or reconstructed as missile cruiser that looked almost nothing like how they did originally. They usually got a new class name, but sometimes were still called by what they had been built as.

And today we have several ship classes around the world that are on the most basic level the same ship, or at least look the same in general appearance, yet are totally different classes. While other are actually the same class, just operated by a different country (the older Oliver Hazard Perry-class frigates come to mind with several being built for other countries, some even built by those countries, and then older American built ships also being sold to those same countries).

Plus there is the Russian example of renaming ships over and over again depending on the leader of the country or a regime change. In some of those cases it was the whoever the ship was named for became unpopular with the new Premier, while others were renamed when either (the Czar lost power) or (the Soviet Union fell).

American ship classes were sometimes renamed when the class ship was lost in combat. The new class name being the next ship in line for documentation. This was probably a PR thing, as if you listed a class name of a ship that had sunk, the public might be aware of it more, so you change the class name to a ship that exists and build a new ship that gets the old ship's name quietly.

 

[Unicron]

What really throws a monkey-wrench into the works though, is the complete arbitrariness of class "variants."

1. The Excelsior and the Enterprise-B, despite several outward differences, are both Excelsior class starships.

2. The Reliant and the Bozeman, despite several outward differences, are the Miranda class and the Soyuz class, respectively.

Why is one set of ships the same class, while the other set of ships is not?

I would say in this case the B was an uprated/new build Excelsior while the Bozeman was a distinct class that happened to be descended from the Miranda design family. I agree it's a blurry and sometimes confusing line.

 

[Timo]

I'd argue there is no difference. Technically, the new Saratoga represents her own class or subclass, and so does the Lantree and the Brattain - but the issue never arises, so we don't learn this irrelevant technicality. In sharp contrast, the issue of whether the Bozeman is a distinct design does arise, and is crucial to the events - the heroes need to establish (not just for the benefit of the audience, but to each other) the fact that this design no longer is in active service.

Were the situation different, the dialogue of "Cause and Effect" would naturally and carefully establish that the old Saratoga of ST4 fame suddenly emerging from the Typhon anomaly is of the Avenger class, retired in the 2310s. This despite her looking identical to most Mirandas (the distinguishing factors of the Avenger class or subclass would supposedly be wholly internal)!

Since the roles are not swapped that way, nothing establishes the class or subclass of the ST4 vessel. But that's only because of the situation specific to "Cause and Effect".

Timo Saloniemi

 

[B.J.]

There really is no consistency with ship classes or variants, even in the real world. A lot of comes down to politics or budgeting (sometimes both). A politician may want this nifty new upgrade to be named for so-and-so. Or there's a whole lot of budget to be spent on ship X, but you can't use it for a new class, so it's a "variant". The bureaucrats pretty much determine what you can and can't do on government projects. Or sometimes it's even marketing, trying to get you to buy the next new thing when it's really not that different.

In the real world, there's are a lot more differences between an F/A-18C and F/A-18E than there is between the F-5E and F-20A. Yet one is a "variant" and the other a new "class". (And they even skipped F-19!)

 

[Shark]

I favor the Reliant as being a newer ship-type and built after TMP. I always thought it was newer than the Enterprise just given the registry of 1864. The script describes the Reliant as being an older ship, battered and well-worn and of the same "type" as the Enterprise only in a different configuration. Whatever that means.

 

[Maurice]

Whatever ended up happening on film, the script is clear that the Reliant is an older ship, similar to the Enterprise but in the same class... whatever that means.

In f.g. is the U.S.S. RELIANT, an older, somewhat
battered starship of the ENTERPRISE class, with a
slightly different configuration. Reliant approaches
an inhospitable-looking yellow planet: CETI ALPHA V​

 

[Mark_Nguyen]

This was reflected in the novelization, where the Reliant was described as something of an old bucket, IIRC.

Mark

 

[137th Gebirg]

"Enterprise class"? Oh, damn - another bit of ancient evidence. Here we go again!

 

[Timo]

Of course, we can again argue whether this is just Hollywoodspeak for "a ship of the ENTERPRISE caliber", rather than an actual reference to the naval concept of "class".

Timo Saloniemi