I didn't think the photo was detrimental to the film, at all. Whose to say something didn't happen to Picard between the time that photo was taken and when we see him in TNG?
Reconsidering Nemesis...
- Thread starter Phantom
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I didn't think the photo was detrimental to the film, at all. Whose to say something didn't happen to Picard between the time that photo was taken and when we see him in TNG?
I know this isn't likely to happen at all, but if all the cut scenes were recovered, and Nemesis was re-edited and included those scenes (or at least the ones that made sense to re-insert), and did some minor trimming of things that don't work in Nemesis (or to ensure the added scenes work smoothly), I would TOTALLY buy that Bluray.
Nemesis was a let down, but over the years it has grown a bit on me. Seeing a re-edited, extended version as it was intended to be, would probably would give me a new appreciation for the film.
Nemesis was a let down, but over the years it has grown a bit on me. Seeing a re-edited, extended version as it was intended to be, would probably would give me a new appreciation for the film.
Bear in mind I am one of those who quite likes NEM. I am just mentioning something that bothers me about the film.
I don't think adding scenes would improve it at all. What's really needed is a little selective editing.
I see why we disagree. I didn't see Hardy's performance as anything beyond average. Most would say that's because the story/script was lackluster. I submit that Stewart has superior acting chops and knowledge of the Picard character to not only pull off the "evil twin" role, but to make it truly memorable.
My main desire for seeing Stewart in that role instead, however, is because I didn't believe Hardy's version was Picard's clone. Not for a second. The big reveal of Shinzon fell totally flat because he doesn't really look like Picard or sound like him at all. The photo of Picard from his youth was laughable. It didn't work and it completely took me out of the story.
I'd definitely believe it if Stewart played the role, and I'm sure I'd care more about the story and even have more sympathy for Shinzon, feel a chill during the reveal scene, jaws would surely drop during Shinzon's death scene, the list goes on.
It's really hard to make an argument one way or the other though, I suppose, without actually having the alternate performance to compare, which we never will.
If the tech that successfully de-aged Jeff Bridges in Tron Legacy would've existed at the production of Nemesis, I could probably see Stewart at least voicing his clone.
As was that response.
I see why we disagree. I didn't see Hardy's performance as anything beyond average. Most would say that's because the story/script was lackluster. I submit that Stewart has superior acting chops and knowledge of the Picard character to not only pull off the "evil twin" role, but to make it truly memorable.
My main desire for seeing Stewart in that role instead, however, is because I didn't believe Hardy's version was Picard's clone. Not for a second. The big reveal of Shinzon fell totally flat because he doesn't really look like Picard or sound like him at all. The photo of Picard from his youth was laughable. It didn't work and it completely took me out of the story.
I'd definitely believe it if Stewart played the role, and I'm sure I'd care more about the story and even have more sympathy for Shinzon, feel a chill during the reveal scene, jaws would surely drop during Shinzon's death scene, the list goes on.
It's really hard to make an argument one way or the other though, I suppose, without actually having the alternate performance to compare, which we never will.
If the tech that successfully de-aged Jeff Bridges in Tron Legacy would've existed at the production of Nemesis, I could probably see Stewart at least voicing his clone.
I don't think they'd even have to go that far. If Stewart played both roles, it would have been simple enough to explain away how Shinzon appears to be the same age as Picard (this is Trek after all).
Actually, the problem here is when Shinzon was actually created. He's what, 20-something years old? Nemesis takes place in 2379. What was Picard doing in 2359 that made the Romulans interested in him? He wouldn't even be in command of the Enterprise-D for four more years! There would have been absolutely no reason why the Romulans would have cloned Picard, because at the time Picard was essentially a nobody.
It would have made much more sense to have had Stewart play Shinzon, and have been created much more recently. I mean, why would a clone have to be born and grow up? Why not just create one fully grown, like in the TNG episode "Up the Long Ladder?"
But, if you're trying to sneak in a secret agent, wouldn't you want to pick someone that isn't visible? Why not go with someone that's not notable, and is therefore easy to replace?
Picard could have been part of Admiral Quinn's staff at that point, and seen as someone who could be part of the Admiralty one day.
I wonder how many different officers were cloned during that operation?
2359... that would be five years before he takes command of the Enterprise, yes?
Let's remember at that point Picard had already completed a distinguished 22-year tour of duty as captain of the Stargazer, was the hero of the Battle of Maxia for saving his crew (even if he did lose his ship) and was probably pretty well known in the Federation because of it, if not for the court-martial Phillipa Luvois tries against him.
If there's any confusion here it's not because Picard "was a nobody back then," it's because Shinzon's creation completely ignores the whole isolationist period the Romulans went through after the Tomed Incident up until the events of "The Neutral Zone" ("We're back!")
Unless the Romulans were spying on Federation ships and key personnel the entire time, (also not out of the realm of possibility) it is hard to jive with what we'd been led to believe beforehand of interstellar politics and relations at the time.
I have to admit -- Stewart vs. Stewart would have made for some glorious, scene-chewing awesomeness, but I think it would have equally been just as corny given the talent involved behind the scenes.
Just because they weren't openly needling the Federation doesn't mean they weren't spying or having third-parties carry out objectives against the Federation.
^So let's play devil's advocate and say that Picard was more than just a nobody. So, why him? Why did the Romulans choose him specifically over a myriad of other officers?
Agreed. But then again the question must be asked, why Picard specifically? The movie never actually answers this question.
And no one else in Starfleet had a distinguished career like this? Plus, there's this:
Agreed. But then again the question must be asked, why Picard specifically? The movie never actually answers this question.
Shinzon was stated to have undergone a rapid aging process that was halted once his infiltration operation was abandoned, hence his degenerative disease. So he doesn't have to be twenty-something at all. He could be much younger.
But even if he is that old, the Romulans have two key pieces of intelligence about the future Federation: The surviving crew of the Enterprise-C from 2344 (including Tasha Yar) and the messages from the Voyager crew sent back to 2151 through a micro-wormhole in Eye of the Needle.
From the Enterprise-C crew they'd know that the Enterprise-D is a powerful flagship of Starfleet captained by Jean-Luc Picard, who Yar can provide greater intelligence on through a mindscan. They might even have recovered some of Picard's DNA to clone from the Enterprise-C bridge.
Because of the altered timeline, they'll believe that the Klingons are planning to invade Romulan space, giving them reason to continue and expand on the operations to disrupt the Klingons through their alliance with House Duras. That might be what prompted an end to their isolation (along with the Borg attacks) and to build the larger D'Deridex Class Warbirds to dwarf any other enemy vessel of the time.
So Picard himself doesn't have to be particularly noteworthy yet, even though he was already a capable and well-known captain. He's known to the Romulans since at least 2344 thanks to the Enterprise-C.
Winnah!!!
Not really.
This is assuming that the Romulans knew Tasha was from the future. Other than a different uniform, they would have just assumed she was part of the Ent-C crew. And Tasha would have had no reason to tell them her true origins, and especially not about Picard and the Enterprise-D. Yeah, she told Sela where she really came from, but who's gonna believe some kid's fairy stories?
As for that Voyager episode? Janeway gave letters from her crew to the Romulan cargo ship captain to be revealed in 20 years. But the guy died before revealing the messages, so no one learned of them. Plus, they were just messages home from the crew of Voyager. How would the Romulans determine that Picard was a mighty starship captain from that?
This is assuming that the Romulans knew Tasha was from the future. Other than a different uniform, they would have just assumed she was part of the Ent-C crew. And Tasha would have had no reason to tell them her true origins, and especially not about Picard and the Enterprise-D. Yeah, she told Sela where she really came from, but who's gonna believe some kid's fairy stories?
As for that Voyager episode? Janeway gave letters from her crew to the Romulan cargo ship captain to be revealed in 20 years. But the guy died before revealing the messages, so no one learned of them. Plus, they were just messages home from the crew of Voyager. How would the Romulans determine that Picard was a mighty starship captain from that?
I kind of find the idea of Shinzon being a young (~10-12 years old mentally) tactical genius with limited social experience in the mold of Ender's Game to be pretty interesting. It certainly explains some of his more irrational anger toward Picard, Earth, and women like Deanna. He's a child in an adult's body with no social interaction beyond this warrior cult he was raised in and elevated to leader/savior of.
http://en.memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Romulan_mind_probe
Like I said, the Tal Shiar would just scan her mind and extract her memories, they don't have to interrogate her the traditional way.
And it's not just a different uniform, but also a more advanced communicator that would alert them that she was from a different time. Plus, they have those temporal scanning whoswhatsits that can tell the temporal origins of a person or device.
But given the inter-relatedness and small world nature of Starfleet in the shows, I hardly think it's out of the realm of possibility that someone on the Voyager crew would mention the Enterprise or Picard in their correspondence, thus giving the Romulans a second point of confirmation from the Enterprise-C survivors.
http://en.memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Romulan_mind_probe
Like I said, the Tal Shiar would just scan her mind and extract her memories, they don't have to interrogate her the traditional way.
And it's not just a different uniform, but also a more advanced communicator that would alert them that she was from a different time. Plus, they have those temporal scanning whoswhatsits that can tell the temporal origins of a person or device.
Nope. He communicated with the Romulan Senate twice to ask permission to transmit Voyager's messages, so they were aware of the situation. And later Barclay said that the Romulans had been interested in Voyager for "years." They were just dicks and didn't pass along the messages.
Regardless, Picard was known to the Romulans from the Enterprise-C incident, so this is a less important point. I was just mentioning it because the Romulans had two important pieces of information about different futures; one erased and one ongoing.
But given the inter-relatedness and small world nature of Starfleet in the shows, I hardly think it's out of the realm of possibility that someone on the Voyager crew would mention the Enterprise or Picard in their correspondence, thus giving the Romulans a second point of confirmation from the Enterprise-C survivors.
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This and your previous post were great, too bad the movie didn't really cover any of that, it would have helped, a lot.
