Reconciling 2385?

[Charles Phipps]

What trauma? He threw a temper tantrum and quit. He wasn't at Mars, he was out saving Romulans.

It's an attack on the heart of the Federation that has killed more people than anything since the Dominion War. That will leave a cultural trauma that doesn't include the fact that it was Picard who forwarded the use of synthetic labor for the refugee project. Also, the trauma that nothing Picard can do will save the billions of people he COULD have saved.

 

[hbquikcomjamesl]

This thread, in combination with the exceedingly bleak "Kobayashi Maru on steroids" scenario of Last Best Hope, is filling me with foreboding and dread for next month's DVD release.

 

[fireproof78]

This thread, in combination with the exceedingly bleak "Kobayashi Maru on steroids" scenario of Last Best Hope, is filling me with foreboding and dread for next month's DVD release.

It has a happy ending.

 

[BillJ]

It's an attack on the heart of the Federation that has killed more people than anything since the Dominion War. That will leave a cultural trauma that doesn't include the fact that it was Picard who forwarded the use of synthetic labor for the refugee project. Also, the trauma that nothing Picard can do will save the billions of people he COULD have saved.

I'm not seeing it. This is nothing compared to other things he was able to overcome. He personally took part in the execution of 11,000 Starfleet officers as Locutus. I don't see him to succumbing to a 9/11 style event.

If there is one weakness to the book (and how the show handles the events), was that he wasn't even shown as to have tried to save the Romulans in any other way. Not just on his own, but by calling in favors from people who surely owed him favors from over the decades he was a starship commander.

And I don't buy the idea that "because I can't save everyone, I chose to save no one". That is the antithesis of what the Federation and Picard are supposed to be.

 

[BillJ]

This thread, in combination with the exceedingly bleak "Kobayashi Maru on steroids" scenario of Last Best Hope, is filling me with foreboding and dread for next month's DVD release.

As much as I liked the book, I still haven't finished the first season.

 

[Charles Phipps]

I'm not seeing it. This is nothing compared to other things he was able to overcome. He personally took part in the execution of 11,000 Starfleet officers as Locutus. I don't see him to succumbing to a 9/11 style event.

But he DID succumb to the 11,000 Starfleet officers he killed. It also haunted him for the rest of his life.

If there is one weakness to the book (and how the show handles the events), was that he wasn't even shown as to have tried to save the Romulans in any other way. Not just on his own, but by calling in favors from people who surely owed him favors from over the decades he was a starship commander.

Not exactly much of an event to have broken Picard if he's not broken by it.

And I don't buy the idea that "because I can't save everyone, I chose to save no one". That is the antithesis of what the Federation and Picard are supposed to be.

Yes. That would be why Picard views himself as having failed himself in the series. Why it's a redemption arc.

 

[Damian]

I like that observation. Unintended as you note, but you can definitely see Picard's attitude evolving in that respect. He's not a static character, so there's no reason to expect the Picard we see in PICARD to be exactly the same guy we were introduced to in "Encounter at Farpoint." Lord knows I'm probably not the same person I was back in 1987!

And, given how many times Picard has succeeded in getting the right thing done, I can certainly see him getting a little overconfident in his own righteousness and authority in his later years.

I just started watching TNG and am toward the end of season 1 and it's interesting to see where his character 'started' off from.

I mean, we know he suffered some losses before TNG...his first ship, his best friend. But nothing will be like what's still coming---assimilation by the Borg, being tortured at the hands of Gul Macet being two of the most life changing events for him. Of course later he would lose his good friend Data as well, and obviously the Romulan Supernova issues (and one could probably assume he suffered hardships and losses like many did during the Dominion War, even if it wasn't shown on screen).

But knowing I'll be watching Picard for the first time in a couple weeks when I get it on Blu-Ray, as I've watched the 1st season of TNG I've been keeping an eye on Captain Picard in particular in these earlier years. He's very optimistic, almost naïve in some ways, about the galaxy around him.

 

[BillJ]

Why it's a redemption arc.

I didn't see much of a redemption arc, I saw an old man chasing his tail for eight episodes. To the point I just didn't care anymore.

 

[Charles Phipps]

I didn't see much of a redemption arc, I saw an old man chasing his tail for eight episodes. To the point I just didn't care anymore.

Spoiler

Well the ending is when he saved Data's daughter, Data's entire race, the entire galaxy, and overturned the Synth ban. Also exposed the Zhat Vash to the Federation.

But hey, the show didn't work for you. That's fine.

 

[BillJ]

Spoiler

Well the ending is when he saved Data's daughter, Data's entire race, the entire galaxy, and overturned the Synth ban. Also exposed the Zhat Vash to the Federation.

But hey, the show didn't work for you. That's fine.

Man, you made that sound horrible. No wonder I've struggled to care. Should've avoided the spoilers, then it would've been funny (sad funny) as fuck.

And I'm sure all those dead Romulans are glad he got around to saving somebody...

 

[Charles Phipps]

Man, you made that sound horrible. No wonder I've struggled to care. Should've avoided the spoilers, then it would've been funny (sad funny) as fuck.

And I'm sure all those dead Romulans are glad he got around to saving somebody...

So, what would you do to break Picard and need redemption?

 

[BillJ]

So, what would you do to break Picard and need redemption?

Probably something that existed only on a personal level with the Romulans. These folks go to the "end of everything" creative well way too often. It gets tedious and uninteresting.

 

[The Wormhole]

Man, you made that sound horrible. No wonder I've struggled to care. Should've avoided the spoilers, then it would've been funny (sad funny) as fuck.

That description left out the best bit.

Spoiler

A tentacle monster appears. For no fucking reason. It lingers for a few moments, then leaves. I'm not even making that up or exaggerating anything. That's literally what happens.

These new shows really need to do a better job with their finales.

 

[fireproof78]

Yes. That would be why Picard views himself as having failed himself in the series. Why it's a redemption arc.

Precisely so.

 

[hbquikcomjamesl]

You may recall that I recused myself from the poll on the Last Best Hope review thread. Because I have so little experience with novels (or anything else) so relentlessly tragic they could (to quote a line from Edwards & Stone's 1776) depress a hyena, and therefore had no basis for a meaningful opinion.

 

[Christopher]

Wow, there are a lot of novels (and everything else) out there far more tragic than TLBH.

 

[Greg Cox]

Wow, there are a lot of novels (and everything else) out there far more tragic than TLBH.

Tragedy has been part of STAR TREK ever since poor, doomed, disfigured Vina was left behind in "The Cage." See also "City on the Edge of Forever," "Charlie X," "Conscience of the King," "Where No Man Has Gone Before," etc.

Heck, remember the time Kirk's pregnant wife was stoned to death? Not exactly a feel-good ending.

 

[Charles Phipps]

You may recall that I recused myself from the poll on the Last Best Hope review thread. Because I have so little experience with novels (or anything else) so relentlessly tragic they could (to quote a line from Edwards & Stone's 1776) depress a hyena, and therefore had no basis for a meaningful opinion.

Oddly, I felt it was a lot less depressing than Picard's opening as it shows that Picard saved millions of Romulans before his plan to save billions failed. Mind you, I do feel a lot of what makes the novel strong is that our heroes fail in this one.

"Let this Be Your Last Battlefield" and other Trek episodes sometimes benefit from our heroes' efforts being for not.

 

[Damian]

Tragedy has been part of STAR TREK ever since poor, doomed, disfigured Vina was left behind in "The Cage." See also "City on the Edge of Forever," "Charlie X," "Conscience of the King," "Where No Man Has Gone Before," etc.

Heck, remember the time Kirk's pregnant wife was stoned to death? Not exactly a feel-good ending.

I feel sad now

I think we all need to watch "Shore Leave" or "The Trouble with Tribbles" now, or maybe DS9's "Take Me Out to the Holosuite." (or any of the Ferengi episodes of DS9 "Profit and Lace" anyone ).

 

[Charles Phipps]

I feel sad now

I think we all need to watch "Shore Leave" or "The Trouble with Tribbles" now, or maybe DS9's "Take Me Out to the Holosuite." (or any of the Ferengi episodes of DS9 "Profit and Lace" anyone ).

To be fair, we have Lower Decks.

*homicidal AI hunt our heroes*

Whoops.