Reconciling 2385?

[Damian]

So, Picard, career diplomat that he is misread the room. The scary part and probably why Picard beat himself up so much is that he probably COULD have done a lot more by using his oratory skills to persuade people to help versus actually doing the day to day organizing. He could have done a lot as the "face" of the evacuation both pre and post attack. However, he's so gobsmacked he's unable to do anything before the Sun explodes (and there was barely any time left anyway).

I guess that's really the part that I have a hard time wrapping my mind around. Picard is usually very gifted and reading things like that, and he has a way of convincing people. And it wasn't like the warning signs weren't presented. In fact, IIRC there were times his superiors almost begged him to do just that. And he just blew them off. He had a job to do and anyone who had any concerns just had to suck it up buttercup. And that actually made it worse.

The worse thing you can do is tell someone who has concerns is 'talk to the hand' basically. Your basically are showing them that they are not important at all.

But again I guess that's part of the theme of the show. Picard is thunderstruck that the Federation abandoned the evacuation. But also that there is probably some self-blame as well. If he had done some of those things maybe he could have salvaged something from the situation. I haven't seen the show but it sounds like they haven't solved the mystery of what happened to cause the androids on Mars to suddenly immolate the entire planet. So I imagine he might be wondering if there was something he missed on that front as well.

 

[Charles Phipps]

I haven't seen the show but it sounds like they haven't solved the mystery of what happened to cause the androids on Mars to suddenly immolate the entire planet. So I imagine he might be wondering if there was something he missed on that front as well.

They indeed solve it in season one.

 

[Christopher]

I guess that's really the part that I have a hard time wrapping my mind around. Picard is usually very gifted and reading things like that, and he has a way of convincing people.

A lot of people get more stubborn and set in their thinking as they age. Picard has been on the right side of the debate so many times that maybe he started to get overconfident in his own rightness and paid less attention to other people's points of view.

 

[Damian]

They indeed solve it in season one.

Oh, ok. I think I was mixing that up with the cause of the supernova in the first place. I had heard something wasn't addressed and maybe it's the supernova (I know the novel hinted at a possible attack).

A lot of people get more stubborn and set in their thinking as they age. Picard has been on the right side of the debate so many times that maybe he started to get overconfident in his own rightness and paid less attention to other people's points of view.

Yeah, I guess that's true enough. And once he was promoted he was basically on a single mission for a couple of years. I guess he became so obsessed with achieving the goal he forgot to keep an eye on the big picture.

 

[Charles Phipps]

I also don't think that anyone hits the ball 100% of the time. Baron Richthofen died on his last mission because it was the one time in the history of his flight schedule he didn't follow his incredibly detailed and methodical fighting pattern. In the case of Picard, I think that its entirely possible that he made one of his few mistakes (and everyone makes mistakes) at a dramatically poor time.

As stated, Picard isn't perfect even if he is the exemplar of a Roddenberry human.

As for the supernova, I don't think there's a mystery in the show. The Romulan Sun just went supernova. It's only in the book they point out that it can't be a natural phenomenon by all the laws of physics.

 

[Christopher]

It's only in the book they point out that it can't be a natural phenomenon by all the laws of physics.

Tell that to the Fabrini, the Minarans, and the Sarpeidons.

 

[Charles Phipps]

Tell that to the Fabrini, the Minarans, and the Sarpeidons.

It's a shame the Great Bird of the Galaxy didn't escape the sun.

 

[Damian]

As for the supernova, I don't think there's a mystery in the show. The Romulan Sun just went supernova. It's only in the book they point out that it can't be a natural phenomenon by all the laws of physics.

Hmm. That's interesting. The book gave me the definite impression that something unnatural was going on. That led me to believe there was going to be something in the show about that.

It'd be almost a shame if the book brought that up and it's just left hanging. I don't imagine Una McCormack would have placed those hints in the novel if the show had no plans to do cover that angle. I mean, it wasn't just some idle thing. The Romulans basically 'disappeared' the scientist who was asking too many questions about it.

But maybe that's something that will come up in season 2.

 

[Charles Phipps]

Hmm. That's interesting. The book gave me the definite impression that something unnatural was going on. That led me to believe there was going to be something in the show about that.

It'd be almost a shame if the book brought that up and it's just left hanging. I don't imagine Una McCormack would have placed those hints in the novel if the show had no plans to do cover that angle. I mean, it wasn't just some idle thing. The Romulans basically 'disappeared' the scientist who was asking too many questions about it.

But maybe that's something that will come up in season 2.

I think the fact that there's evidence of it being a deliberate attack but they can't investigate it and have to drop it is part of the book's theme actually. If they did discover it was an attack, it would change everything, but the official narrative is something being forced. Part of what makes the social satire good, sadly, is that political agendas are trumping facts. This one time we never get the truth--if there is a truth.

Maybe it is nothing but no one CARES if it's something.

 

[Christopher]

I mean, it wasn't just some idle thing. The Romulans basically 'disappeared' the scientist who was asking too many questions about it.

I didn't take that as the government covering up an attack. I took it as the same thing the US "government" is doing with COVID, climate change, etc. -- pretending it's not a problem rather than admit that things are going wrong on their watch. That includes firing all the scientists trying to alert people to the problem.

 

[BillJ]

I don't consider the continuation of the Romulan people a "random" evacuation mission.

Something huge came up and he did what his concience demanded: Drop everything and save as many lives as he can.

The thing that bothered me in the show was that he gave up so easily after the Mars attack.

 

[Charles Phipps]

The thing that bothered me in the show was that he gave up so easily after the Mars attack.

I think Picard can be justified even there in that he needs a bit to rally back but the sun explodes before he has a chance to do anything. I think Picard had a matter of weeks at this point rather than months or years.

Mind you, even if he had rallied back, he would have had to have chosen who would have lived and who would have died.

FYI - I love the Kelvin fix/epilogue that @Christopher posted. The idea that Spock is going to Romulus to zap their sun and save the day but fails. That would be another institution twist on Picard's decision that he and Spock come up with a last ditch plan to perform a "hail mary" and stop the supernova (albeit still needing to evacuate all of the planets in the Romulus system) only for it, too, to fail.

Worse, to kill one of Picard's friends.

The Jellyfish is the perfect sort of, "We have no resources of any kind but this tiny ship and some science to stop this." That taking place right after the Federation abandons all efforts would justify.

The only problem with this is that it really does undermine the point that, "yes, sometimes even heroes can be broken by the weight of events."

 

[BillJ]

I think Picard had a matter of weeks at this point rather than months or years.

Mars attack happens in 2385, Romulus goes nova in 2387.

Mind you, even if he had rallied back, he would have had to have chosen who would have lived and who would have died.

He was already doing that as they never could have saved every Romulan.

 

[Greg Cox]

I think this is actually interesting in the context of being a character arc (however unintentional) that began in the early seasons where he was against helping people due to a conservative view of Starfleet's role to do good (we see examples with telling Will not to heal the little girl, Data's Pen Pal, and leaving the population of Worf's brother's planet to die) versus later stories where he's far more eager to get involved for the greater good (Insurrection). By the time he's reached Picard, he's all about doing what's right, damn the costs.

I like that observation. Unintended as you note, but you can definitely see Picard's attitude evolving in that respect. He's not a static character, so there's no reason to expect the Picard we see in PICARD to be exactly the same guy we were introduced to in "Encounter at Farpoint." Lord knows I'm probably not the same person I was back in 1987!

And, given how many times Picard has succeeded in getting the right thing done, I can certainly see him getting a little overconfident in his own righteousness and authority in his later years.

 

[Charles Phipps]

Mars attack happens in 2385, Romulus goes nova in 2387.

My bad. In which case I have more support for the "Jellyfish is Picard and Spock's miracle end-of-the-two-parter plan."

He was already doing that as they never could have saved every Romulan.

No, Picard was doing his best to save as many as possible. Hence why he had the enormous fleet built. A fleet that went boom boom.

 

[BillJ]

No, Picard was doing his best to save as many as possible.

Which means he knew he couldn't save everyone, which leads back to him picking and choosing who to save.

 

[Charles Phipps]

Which means he knew he couldn't save everyone, which leads back to him picking and choosing who to save.

I think there's a fundamental difference between saving billions with a massive fleet versus however many he could scrape together in two years.

I can see how even Picard can be overwhelmed.

 

[BillJ]

I can see how even Picard can be overwhelmed.

He didn't even try.

 

[Charles Phipps]

He didn't even try.

Yep. Trauma will do that.

 

[BillJ]

Yep. Trauma will do that.

What trauma? He threw a temper tantrum and quit. He wasn't at Mars, he was out saving Romulans.