Reconciling 2385?

[Allyn Gibson]

I have a feeling, though, that Strange New Worlds will be the usual, created by Alex Kurtzman, etc. and then 'based on Star Trek created by Gene Roddenberry.'

I'm not sure that would fly with the WGA. A "Created by Gene Roddenberry and Alex Kurtzman & ..." might, but even that I question. The WGA has rules about who gets credits, and they're strict. Roddenberry created the "Pike on the Enterprise" format in 1964. He filmed a pilot. It got picked up for series in 2020. The "Created by"/"Developed by" seems most reasonable to me. We'll see!

 

[thribs]

I recommend strongly THE LAST BEST HOPE by Una McCormack. Easily one of the best Star Trek novels period.

I didn’t like that book at all. Picard just isn’t feel like Picard to me.

 

[Charles Phipps]

I didn’t like that book at all. Picard just isn’t feel like Picard to me.

I felt differently. Picard was displaying his diplomatic, noble, and organizer side the entire book. None of the usual adventurer stuff but pure diplomacy as well as bureaucracy. A real Admiral for an Admiral problem.

 

[thribs]

The way he just left the Enterprise to help in some random evacuation mission? I don’t see him doing that. Plus the book didn’t answer any other questions the tv show raised.

 

[Charles Phipps]

The way he just left the Enterprise to help in some random evacuation mission? I don’t see him doing that. Plus the book didn’t answer any other questions the tv show raised.

The Sovereign-class Enterprise isn't the same Enterprise that Captain Picard developed a deep and lasting bond with. It's a ship he's been on for just a few years and isn't one that has the majority of the crew he considered family on. As for a random evacuation mission, this is shown to be the most important project of Starfleet since the events of the Khitomer Accords and evacuation of Kronos.

Also, may I ask what questions? I felt the series was pretty good at answering everything.

 

[David cgc]

The Sovereign-class Enterprise isn't the same Enterprise that Captain Picard developed a deep and lasting bond with. It's a ship he's been on for just a few years and isn't one that has the majority of the crew he considered family on. As for a random evacuation mission, this is shown to be the most important project of Starfleet since the events of the Khitomer Accords and evacuation of Kronos.

No, it isn't the Enterprise you developed a deep and lasting bond with. He had the same crew as on the -D (less Worf and Wesley) for the same amount of time, and was with the ship itself, Beverly, and Geordi for two years longer than he was on the -D (and all of that after he'd decided to open up to the crew more in "All Good Things..."), we just didn't see a lot of it. Indeed, this being the TrekLit forum, and not the STO forum, or the Reruns on Netflix forum, for much of this segment of the audience, the E-E has been and remained the incumbent Enterprise with Picard its incumbent captain for twenty-five years, longer than the character of Picard was even on the Stargazer (which is the real argument people should make if they're going to assert being "Captain of the (or an) Enterprise" wasn't something he'd hold on to like Kirk did).

 

[Leto_II]

The Sovereign-class Enterprise isn't the same Enterprise that Captain Picard developed a deep and lasting bond with. It's a ship he's been on for just a few years and isn't one that has the majority of the crew he considered family on.

Actually, Picard spent around a year longer in command of the Enterprise-E (2372-2380) than he did aboard the Enterprise-D (2364-2371). But yeah, his command staff was very different by the end of that tenure.

 

[Christopher]

The Sovereign-class Enterprise isn't the same Enterprise that Captain Picard developed a deep and lasting bond with.

I don't agree that he did develop a deep and lasting bond with the E-D. That was more Kirk's deal. When Kirk's Enterprise was destroyed in TSFS, he was all "My God, Bones, what have I done?" But when the E-D was destroyed in Generations, Picard's reaction was basically just "Oh, well, they'll build another one."

After all, Picard spent 22 years on the Stargazer. Seven or eight years on an Enterprise is minor next to that. Picard's bond was to the crew of the Enterprise, not the ship itself. And much of the crew was gone by the time of the novel.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I realize that show needed a subtitle to differentiate it from the 1966-1969 show, but a plain Star Trek would not have been inappropriate for that series

Following the recent trend, it should be call The Star Trek.

 

[thribs]

Actually, Picard spent around a year longer in command of the Enterprise-E (2372-2380) than he did aboard the Enterprise-D (2364-2371). But yeah, his command staff was very different by the end of that tenure.

I was going to say the same thing. It is weird that is the case.
Kirk warned him about becoming Admiral. It just leaves to misery

 

[Charles Phipps]

I was going to say the same thing. It is weird that is the case.
Kirk warned him about becoming Admiral. It just leaves to misery

I feel like Kirk should be an anomaly. Most people should be happy to be promoted and not have an obsessive love of captaincy.

 

[thribs]

I feel like Picard would be captain for as long as he wanted and then become an an ambassador .

 

[Christopher]

I feel like Kirk should be an anomaly. Most people should be happy to be promoted and not have an obsessive love of captaincy.

I don't know about that. After all, most people don't get promoted, certainly not that high. A lot of fans (and writers) seem to have this expectation that every character who starts out as an ensign is guaranteed to be an admiral someday, but in reality, there are fewer openings available at higher ranks, because the higher your rank, the more people of lower rank you're in command of. Here's the breakdown for the current US Navy:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/239345/total-military-personnel-of-the-us-navy-by-grade/

Currently there are roughly 3200 captains but only about 130 rear admirals, lower half, and 230 or so admirals of all ranks. Assuming that pretty much all the available openings are filled, that means that on the whole, only about 4 to 7 percent of captains can expect to get promoted to admiral, depending on how often new positions open up.

So promotion is not the only meaningful goal in a hierarchy. Most members of Starfleet should realistically expect to reach a certain rank level and then just stay there until they leave the service. So there shouldn't be anything anomalous about Kirk being content to stay a starship commander, or Scotty or Geordi being content to stay a chief engineer. That's much more likely than getting promoted any higher. It's not obsessive, it's just realistic.

 

[Damian]

I'm not sure that would fly with the WGA. A "Created by Gene Roddenberry and Alex Kurtzman & ..." might, but even that I question. The WGA has rules about who gets credits, and they're strict. Roddenberry created the "Pike on the Enterprise" format in 1964. He filmed a pilot. It got picked up for series in 2020. The "Created by"/"Developed by" seems most reasonable to me. We'll see!

I admit I don't know the legalities of it all. Apparently legalities played into how it was displayed in the Dallas credits. I think initially they wanted a created by credit to go to Jacobs and Cidre, but I think the lawyers said it can only go to Jacobs since it was a direct continuation of the show he created (in that case it was definitely not a spin-off).

CBS has some highly paid lawyers and I'm sure they'll figure it all out.

So there shouldn't be anything anomalous about Kirk being content to stay a starship commander, or Scotty or Geordi being content to stay a chief engineer. That's much more likely than getting promoted any higher. It's not obsessive, it's just realistic.

And honestly, Kirk makes a good point. Being the captain of a starship is a privilege for certain people. You can make a difference out there. It's not for everyone.

And Captain Picard of the novels took that to heart and he didn't seem all that upset that he was told he would never be promoted to admiral. That Picard is where he wanted to be, out there, exploring, making first contact, doing things he would be unable to do as an admiral. For some, admiral is the right path. Admiral Riker for instance doesn't seem to mind being made an admiral. So it does depend on the individual. But I think for some just making it to captain might be their goal.

 

[Christopher]

And Captain Picard of the novels took that to heart and he didn't seem all that upset that he was told he would never be promoted to admiral. That Picard is where he wanted to be, out there, exploring, making first contact, doing things he would be unable to do as an admiral. For some, admiral is the right path. Admiral Riker for instance doesn't seem to mind being made an admiral. So it does depend on the individual. But I think for some just making it to captain might be their goal.

Still, some people seem to take the attitude that just because Kirk recommended not taking a promotion, that automatically requires Picard to see things the same way, or somehow makes it wrong that he took a promotion in Picard's backstory. Why? Picard is his own man. He had one conversation with Kirk years earlier; why should that dictate the course of the rest of his life? Why should he even take Kirk's advice? It's not an obligation.

In any case, Picard's promotion in The Last Best Hope/Picard wasn't something he pursued out of ambition. It was a practical necessity if he wished to lead a massive evacuation fleet. It wasn't about his career satisfaction, it was required by the circumstances. So the question of what he wanted for himself is irrelevant here.

 

[Damian]

Still, some people seem to take the attitude that just because Kirk recommended not taking a promotion, that automatically requires Picard to see things the same way, or somehow makes it wrong that he took a promotion in Picard's backstory. Why? Picard is his own man. He had one conversation with Kirk years earlier; why should that dictate the course of the rest of his life? Why should he even take Kirk's advice? It's not an obligation.

Well, I'm sure it's not the only reason the novel Picard wanted to remain a Captain. IIRC the novels occasionally referenced that conversation as something Picard remembered, but I never got the impression that was the only reason.

My impression is that his life took the course Kirk recommended because it was what he most wanted himself. My guess is Kirk saw something in Picard that he saw in himself and wanted to impart a little advice after accepting his own promotion and realizing that took him away from what he most wanted to do. But advice was all it ever was.

 

[Charles Phipps]

Picard taking the promotion to Vice Admiral is also something that seemed to be done out of self-sacrifice than ambition. The Picard in The Last Best Hope is a guy appalled at the possible loss of life the Romulan supernova will result in and needs to be the guy coordinating it all. We also see from the PICARD Countdown comic that he's basically doing the same thing as before: negotiating, commanding, and operating but with a couple of extra layers.

Then again, I admit Picard the show is different from Picard in Relaunch because the former emphasizes that Jean Luc is getting older. I can see the natural flow of time being something that compels him to more administrative work than continuing on as a captain.

 

[F. King Daniel]

The way he just left the Enterprise to help in some random evacuation mission? I don’t see him doing that. Plus the book didn’t answer any other questions the tv show raised.

I don't consider the continuation of the Romulan people a "random" evacuation mission.

Something huge came up and he did what his concience demanded: Drop everything and save as many lives as he can.

 

[Damian]

Picard taking the promotion to Vice Admiral is also something that seemed to be done out of self-sacrifice than ambition. The Picard in The Last Best Hope is a guy appalled at the possible loss of life the Romulan supernova will result in and needs to be the guy coordinating it all.

Yeah, no doubt in Picard there was a reason he took a promotion to Admiral. He may have been content to remain captain of the Enterprise for years, but he answered the call of duty.

I don't consider the continuation of the Romulan people a "random" evacuation mission.

Something huge came up and he did what his concience demanded: Drop everything and save as many lives as he can.

Yeah, I don't really consider him answering the call here out of character. I'm sure he had other dreams and aspirations, but duty called and he answered the call.

The only thing in the "Last Best Hope" that seemed maybe a bit out of character was his obliviousness at what was going on back in the Federation and some of the back lash building. I suppose he got so wrapped up in the mission he wasn't paying attention maybe. But Picard generally has a good handle of everything going on and just doesn't seem to be the type to lose touch with current events. I mean, at times he was even made aware of it and just blew it off. Perhaps had he not done that he could have maintained some level of support even after the disaster on Mars. He was a master diplomat.

He didn't do that, the disaster happened and then he seemed shocked when the Federation abandoned the effort. I was like, 'dude, signs of trouble were brewing for years'.

But at the same time I didn't really hold that against the novel because she had to line it up to where the show was today. So had he been aware and managed to head off the worst of the trouble...then we'd have a much different show I guess. It had to end with him giving his ultimatum, Starfleet being a shadow of what it was, and him resigning.

 

[Charles Phipps]

One thing I've noticed in a lot of long running franchises is that plenty of people develop problems with their favorite heroes being blind-sided. A good character almost always has some sort of blindspot or flaw that can be exploited for drama. Paragons like Superman and Captain America usually have to have their idealism turned against them to work, which can sometimes feel like a betrayal of their ethos.

In the case of the Picard-universe, the book and show asks us to believe that Picard made the error of getting self-righteous (or maybe just righteous) about the importance of his cause while missing that most Romulans were not humanized for the average Federation citizen. He being in the daily thick of it helping them left and right meant that it was self-obvious that they were people in need of help.

I think this is actually interesting in the context of being a character arc (however unintentional) that began in the early seasons where he was against helping people due to a conservative view of Starfleet's role to do good (we see examples with telling Will not to heal the little girl, Data's Pen Pal, and leaving the population of Worf's brother's planet to die) versus later stories where he's far more eager to get involved for the greater good (Insurrection). By the time he's reached Picard, he's all about doing what's right, damn the costs.

So, Picard, career diplomat that he is, misread the room. The scary part and probably why Picard beat himself up so much is that he probably COULD have done a lot more by using his oratory skills to persuade people to help versus actually doing the day to day organizing. He could have done a lot as the "face" of the evacuation both pre and post attack. However, he's so gobsmacked he's unable to do anything before the Sun explodes (and there was barely any time left anyway).