That is illogical.I also have a life outside of here.
Re-Watching DS9
- Thread starter Lord Garth
- Start date
Your money cheerfully refunded if not satisfied....
Babylon 5 this weekend. To quote Londo, "Ga-ri-baldi!!!!!!"
BTW, I'm surprised they still don't have a ship like the Defiant, where I'm at. I know they get one eventually. That's the last thing I already knew about beforehand that I haven't seen in the series yet. I thought it was going to be the Agamemnon.
I'm not worried about spoiling it for anyone else who hasn't seen it. This is going to be Greek to them anyway. And I don't mean Janet Greek.
BTW, I'm surprised they still don't have a ship like the Defiant, where I'm at. I know they get one eventually. That's the last thing I already knew about beforehand that I haven't seen in the series yet. I thought it was going to be the Agamemnon.
I'm not worried about spoiling it for anyone else who hasn't seen it. This is going to be Greek to them anyway. And I don't mean Janet Greek.
I guess I kind of feel as though if Earth was ever going to give B5 a ship, the show would likely have started out with the station having one. Or, perhaps when matters with the Centauri escalated and B5's defenses wee upgraded they might have received one then. But otherwise, it wasn't going to happen.
...and, as we'd find out, Earth wasn't inclined to do anything that might be seen as putting B5 on a more aggressive stance.
...and, as we'd find out, Earth wasn't inclined to do anything that might be seen as putting B5 on a more aggressive stance.
Oooooo!!!!!!! 
Friendly dig! Frenemy dig? I'm at the beginning of B5's "There All the Honor Lies", and they're talking about selling merchandise to make money for the station to make it more self-sufficient. Then Ivanova said, "This isn't a Deep Space Franchise, this is about something!"
Shot across the bow!
Couldn't wait for the review to post about that!
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Sheridan: Will you go see if they have any baseball caps?
Ivanova reacts.
Sheridan: For my sister!
Friendly dig! Frenemy dig? I'm at the beginning of B5's "There All the Honor Lies", and they're talking about selling merchandise to make money for the station to make it more self-sufficient. Then Ivanova said, "This isn't a Deep Space Franchise, this is about something!"
Shot across the bow!
Couldn't wait for the review to post about that!
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Sheridan: Will you go see if they have any baseball caps?
Ivanova reacts.
Sheridan: For my sister!
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Oooooo!!!!!!!
Friendly dig! Frenemy dig? I'm at the beginning of B5's "There All the Honor Lies", and they're talking about selling merchandise to make money for the station to make it more self-sufficient. Then Ivanova said, "This isn't a Deep Space Franchise, this is about something!"
Shot across the bow!
Couldn't wait for the review to post about that!
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Sheridan: Will you go see if they have any baseball caps?
Ivanova reacts.
Sheridan: For my sister!
I have watched B5 two times and I missed that!
JMS wasted a lot of time wringing his hands over Star Trek.Oooooo!!!!!!!
Friendly dig! Frenemy dig? I'm at the beginning of B5's "There All the Honor Lies", and they're talking about selling merchandise to make money for the station to make it more self-sufficient. Then Ivanova said, "This isn't a Deep Space Franchise, this is about something!"
Shot across the bow!
Couldn't wait for the review to post about that!
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Sheridan: Will you go see if they have any baseball caps?
Ivanova reacts.
Sheridan: For my sister!
That episode was written by Peter David. (One of two, actually.) He wrote a bunch of STAR TREK novels.
Haven't we had this conversation before: the credited writers are not necessarily those who wrote every line, every word of a television screenplay.
True. But JMS was not handwringing about STAR TREK as much as a lot of the B5 fans were.
Otherwise, I doubt he would have been fine with casting Majel Barrett in "POINT OF NO RETURN".
That line from Ivanova is honestly just an inside joke for the fans of both franchises.
Yes. Maybe. No? It definitely seems like something that a producer would insert, not a paid scriptwriter. Certainly JMS has not forgiven to this day whatever he thinks happened.
Peter David wrote the line, but he was surprised that JMS chose to leave it in.
"There All the Honor Lies" (B5 S2E15)
The frame-up of Sheridan for murdering a Minbari looked like a perfect way to get him kicked off of Babylon 5. The Minbari wanting to recall the one witness, preventing a trial due to lack of evidence, looked like a perfect way to cast doubt on Sheridan and get him kicked off Babylon 5 anyway.
The Minbari never lying and Lennier's clan trying to cover up what the murder (also of their clan) did for the greater good reminded me a cross between Vulcans supposedly never lying and Klingons trying to cover up crimes to protect the Empire. The difference is that Lennier has true integrity and won't cover for other members of his clan just to protect them.
Sheridan's lawyer pops up from out of nowhere, steals the first scene she's in, then doesn't have much of anything to do afterwards due to the case not going anywhere. This is the most undercooked part of the episode. She could've been given more to do, if they'd cut down on the B-Story a little.
I've noticed a pattern where Ivanova gets a lot of the fluffy B-stories. She handles the light stuff, while Sheridan gets the heavier material. I can understand that they'd want to give the most important material to Sheridan, but I feel like Ivanova's been underutilized this season.
The idea of selling Babylon 5 merchandise on Babylon 5 is amusing but takes up way too much time. Ivanova wasn't amused, and it took Sheridan the entire episode, but I'm glad he eventually came around and decided it was a bad idea too.
Nice insight into Vir. His family doesn't want him, and his being assigned to be Londo's aide was seen to be a joke of a job. And a job that Vir doesn't want anymore due to everything Londo's been up to lately. Vir wants out, but he has no idea to where, and Londo does the toxic boss thing and finds a way to convince Vir to stay... but I'm not convinced it's going to last. I don't know what's coming next, but I've had enough toxic jobs in my life to know that once someone gets to where Vir is at, it's only a matter of time before they quit for real.
Overall, I give this episode a 7.
The Minbari never lying and Lennier's clan trying to cover up what the murder (also of their clan) did for the greater good reminded me a cross between Vulcans supposedly never lying and Klingons trying to cover up crimes to protect the Empire. The difference is that Lennier has true integrity and won't cover for other members of his clan just to protect them.
Sheridan's lawyer pops up from out of nowhere, steals the first scene she's in, then doesn't have much of anything to do afterwards due to the case not going anywhere. This is the most undercooked part of the episode. She could've been given more to do, if they'd cut down on the B-Story a little.
I've noticed a pattern where Ivanova gets a lot of the fluffy B-stories. She handles the light stuff, while Sheridan gets the heavier material. I can understand that they'd want to give the most important material to Sheridan, but I feel like Ivanova's been underutilized this season.
The idea of selling Babylon 5 merchandise on Babylon 5 is amusing but takes up way too much time. Ivanova wasn't amused, and it took Sheridan the entire episode, but I'm glad he eventually came around and decided it was a bad idea too.
Nice insight into Vir. His family doesn't want him, and his being assigned to be Londo's aide was seen to be a joke of a job. And a job that Vir doesn't want anymore due to everything Londo's been up to lately. Vir wants out, but he has no idea to where, and Londo does the toxic boss thing and finds a way to convince Vir to stay... but I'm not convinced it's going to last. I don't know what's coming next, but I've had enough toxic jobs in my life to know that once someone gets to where Vir is at, it's only a matter of time before they quit for real.
Overall, I give this episode a 7.
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That's exactly what I'd rate the episode too. It's fine, it's got some memorable moments, and an almost subliminal appearance by Talia who hangs around just long enough to get a drink spilled on her. She had a trilogy of Psi Corps stories earlier in the season but afterwards she just vanished and this is the most she's been in an episode since then.
Though Na'Toth managed to disappear for a lot longer, mostly because the new actress (Mary Kay Adams, Grilka on Deep Space Nine), wasn't matching Caitlin Brown's boldness. Fortunately Caitlin did get another chance to steal a scene... as she played Sheridan's lawyer. It's weird that she doesn't get much to do, but that might be because the actor was so good that she seemed more important than she was.
The B5 bear thing was an inside joke between JMS and writer Peter David, as it was a gift from the writer's wife. Don't worry, it was later rescued by the crew of Peter David's own space show, Space Cases. This was the guy's last ever script for Babylon 5 though, and you'll be watching the last episode by Larry DiTillio, Knives, very soon.
In fact I think you should probably watch Knives next, as you've already seen And Now for a Word, and it'll become fairly obvious afterwards which order the next two episodes should've aired in.
Though Na'Toth managed to disappear for a lot longer, mostly because the new actress (Mary Kay Adams, Grilka on Deep Space Nine), wasn't matching Caitlin Brown's boldness. Fortunately Caitlin did get another chance to steal a scene... as she played Sheridan's lawyer. It's weird that she doesn't get much to do, but that might be because the actor was so good that she seemed more important than she was.
The B5 bear thing was an inside joke between JMS and writer Peter David, as it was a gift from the writer's wife. Don't worry, it was later rescued by the crew of Peter David's own space show, Space Cases. This was the guy's last ever script for Babylon 5 though, and you'll be watching the last episode by Larry DiTillio, Knives, very soon.
In fact I think you should probably watch Knives next, as you've already seen And Now for a Word, and it'll become fairly obvious afterwards which order the next two episodes should've aired in.
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the episode "shadowplay" left me scratching my head, 1. how come the vilagers react so calmly to them being holograms even when they been proven that they are. they just aware that they are holograms and thats it. them being a primitve sociaty i would expect them think alot of the after life. odo speech about how from their prespective it dosent matter still dosent sit with me. i get it that they are programmed to be physical, but they still just an hologram. thats like how holograms in the holodeck dont know they are not real. and yet, i dident think the tng crew ever cared about any of them. on the contrary, they love to toy with them for their own amusment. its like the episode missing something. like an actual explanation that makes more sense. like if they are holograms then everything they are also holograms. what they think. what they do. everything. not just their physical body.
^ I only put spoiler-code in for B5 episodes. When I started the DS9 Re-Watch Thread, I wanted to watch B5 too, so I could finally have an opinion on the DS9 vs. B5 Debate. I'd been putting it off for 30 years.
But some people aren't here for B5, and maybe haven't even seen it, so I keep the B5 stuff in spoiler code, just so it's easier to separate DS9 from B5 in this thread, for readability... and just in case anyone reading this, on the off-chance, hasn't seen B5 yet but wants to.
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For "Shadowplay", I don't think the villagers see themselves as not being real, just like I don't think The Doctor from Voyager thinks of himself as not being real. They would rationalize it as, "Of course I'm real! I have thoughts. I see and hear things! I'm real." They'd just beware of never leaving the village, so they don't "die".
I'm glad they didn't dwell on this too much, because then it would've been a re-hash of the Moriarty episodes from TNG, and we didn't need to see all of that explained in-depth yet again. Especially not while TNG was still on the air, which it was at the time this episode was made.
But some people aren't here for B5, and maybe haven't even seen it, so I keep the B5 stuff in spoiler code, just so it's easier to separate DS9 from B5 in this thread, for readability... and just in case anyone reading this, on the off-chance, hasn't seen B5 yet but wants to.
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For "Shadowplay", I don't think the villagers see themselves as not being real, just like I don't think The Doctor from Voyager thinks of himself as not being real. They would rationalize it as, "Of course I'm real! I have thoughts. I see and hear things! I'm real." They'd just beware of never leaving the village, so they don't "die".
I'm glad they didn't dwell on this too much, because then it would've been a re-hash of the Moriarty episodes from TNG, and we didn't need to see all of that explained in-depth yet again. Especially not while TNG was still on the air, which it was at the time this episode was made.
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A different rationalization might be, if we can push the question of sentience aside, that the individuals we see are how the thinking program or technology interacts with the physical world. Voyager always makes clear that the Doctor is a manifestation of the programing, and that how the Doctor manifests affects those interactions. The human presentation means the Doctor not only gets human-like reactions, he does human-like things (loves, sings, etc.). The village in Shadowplay could be the same, just multiple manifestations, not one.
Just watched "Knives". No review right now, because I have a splitting headache. I'll wait until this headache goes away or at least dies down a little. We've got a heat wave in Boston, and I have the air-conditioning on, but I always get a headache like this every year when it's this hot out for the first time. It's been like that since I was a kid. I'm going to take some aspirin.
In the meantime, all I'm going to say is this:
In the meantime, all I'm going to say is this:
Londo is like Heisenberg! He's the Walter White of Babylon 5. I never thought I'd say this. But he keeps becoming worse and worse and feels committed on taking this path into darkness. I'd laugh if at one point he told Vir, "I am not in danger, Vir. No! I am the danger! I'M THE ONE WHO KNOCKS!!!"
Imagine reading that dialogue with Londo's voice and inflections.
Imagine reading that dialogue with Londo's voice and inflections.
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