Re-Doing DS9?

[Rahul]

....

Oh okay, well my comments are still pretty much the same. Instead of introducing more major races, they already have a bunch of existing major races that could use a lot more exploring. You can pick any one of them and do an entire series featuring just Romulans, or just Klingons, the volume of material you could mine would be endless.

To be honest, I don't like the TNG-era Romulans. And the klingons barely. They certainly have potential in capable hands. But through endless repetition they have become totally clichés and walking stereotypes. Everything about the klingons has to do with honour and battle, and every plot involving Romulans is one with deceit and intrigue.

Thats why I love the Cardassians so much: They are a 'newer' race. There is still unexplored potential. They are very militaristic and colonistic. But they can also be clever and intriguing (look at TNGs 'Chain of Commands'). They feel like people.

And that's something I really miss about the Romulans or Klingons, and why I would rather see new recurring species or old ones better fleshed out. Like the Andorians on Enterprise. So come on: Tell me stories about the Bolians. Nausicaaner. Tellarites! There's endless potential, no need to always fall back on the old and tested!

 

[Orphalesion]

....

I don't see why it should give you the creeps or make you feel uncomfortable, unless you thought it possible that Garak was going to rape Bashir, short of that, what goes on between two consenting adults is their own business. It's not like they were going to show us anything, so why this apprehension?

Well, why not? No need to get personal or even bring up rape here. As someone who is absolutely for equal rights, I would still be unconfortable when another man would invade my private space. In fact I was pretty much creeped out myself by the scene in the latest Bond flick 'Skyfall', where the bad guy forces himself on Bond by seductivly touching his legs. It's a very effective scene in this way, which makes you think about such things and how you would personally react, and admire Bonds non-defensive response.

It's never pleasant if someone forces himself into an intimate situation with you (many girls in bars can tell you a story or two). But since most man are quite open about flirting with most woman, being hit on non-amicable by gay men is pretty much the only experience of really getting violated in their privacy for many of them, even if it happens only on tv or as a result of a misunderstanding. And that can give you the creeps, even if you are pretty open-minded. As long as it doesn't result in homophobia, no need to condemn it.

The real problem is: It's usually only the bad guys on tv who are homosexual (bonus points if they are women in leather outfits), never the good guys or even important minor characters. That really needs to change.

So let's add 'add a recurring gay character' to our list for redoing DS9 and get back to topic

I presume it's the same as somebody cringing at Lwaxana aggressively pursuing men who are clearly not into her (as Bad Thoughts was earlier in this thread) or me being put-off by the Doctor's behavior towards Seven of Nine. I don't think it was meant to be anti-gay by dub, just anti creepin'.
It's the slightly predatory aspect, the old, and very subjective, comedy trope of the "abhorrent admirer" that's the problem here, not the sexes of those involved.
Garak, not matter if gay, straight or bi, is very, very creepy and reptilian and Bashir is clearly uncomfortable in that scene. It's up to personal opinion to find that funny or cringe worthy, just like with Lwaxana.

Now I have an idea for a ST-themed version of "Do the Creep" starring Garrik, Lwaxana and the EMH

 

[kkt]

^
However if Garrik had been allowed to be gay, perhaps we'd have gotten a more positive gay character by Voyager or Enterprise. Hey, even Bashir could have turned out to be gay, his desperate pursuit of Jadzia little more than him trying to proof to everybody ad himself how "heterosexual" he is.

I hope and expect that in the 24th century we're past people being closeted and pretending to be heterosexual when they're not. Besides, we see Bashir hitting on women all the time, usually unsuccessfully but still. We never see him hitting on men.

 

[kkt]

The actor who played Garak said that he never meant to play him as gay.

"I had planned Garak not as homosexual or heterosexual but omnisexual, and the first episode I had with Bashir played that way gave people fits. So I had to remove that characteristic from him." -Andrew J. Robinson

Plus, if you're going to make your first gay character in Trek history, would you really want him to be a spy who betrayed Dukat's father and had him tortured and killed? I don't think such a ruthless, albeit reformed by the end of the series, would that have gone over so well?

I don't think Garak was all that reformed. The Federation and Sisko realized Garak could be a huge help to them. And Garak realized his best shot at saving his homeland from ruin by the Dominion and getting his exile lifted was helping the Federation win the war. A purely practical relationship on both sides, and once the war was over I expect Garak to go back to "the ends justify the means" politics as usual on Cardassia.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

^
However if Garrik had been allowed to be gay, perhaps we'd have gotten a more positive gay character by Voyager or Enterprise. Hey, even Bashir could have turned out to be gay, his desperate pursuit of Jadzia little more than him trying to proof to everybody ad himself how "heterosexual" he is.

I hope and expect that in the 24th century we're past people being closeted and pretending to be heterosexual when they're not. Besides, we see Bashir hitting on women all the time, usually unsuccessfully but still. We never see him hitting on men.

What I tend to fear is that even today, after some twenty years of same-sex kissing on TV, the presentation of homosexuality (along with most minority groups) is exploitative, if usually positive. Sexuality is still used as a tool to delve in a character's personality rather than being a facet of that personality. Would I trust that Garak's homosexuality (should it be established) would not figure into his career, his relationship with his father, and his duplicity? I hesitate to say yes. Moreover, I think any positive lessons to be drawn therefrom would be erased by "double jeopardy," the same way that the homosexual characteristics of other characters are contextualized by their alienness (like Dax). Of course, if they were to start afresh with DS9, a gay Garak could be better balanced.

BTW, did they have have a same-sex kiss on Trek that involved a (full) human? Two humans?

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

I don't see why it should give you the creeps or make you feel uncomfortable, unless you thought it possible that Garak was going to rape Bashir, short of that, what goes on between two consenting adults is their own business. It's not like they were going to show us anything, so why this apprehension?

Well, why not? No need to get personal or even bring up rape here. As someone who is absolutely for equal rights, I would still be unconfortable when another man would invade my private space. In fact I was pretty much creeped out myself by the scene in the latest Bond flick 'Skyfall', where the bad guy forces himself on Bond by seductivly touching his legs. It's a very effective scene in this way, which makes you think about such things and how you would personally react, and admire Bonds non-defensive response.

It's never pleasant if someone forces himself into an intimate situation with you (many girls in bars can tell you a story or two). But since most man are quite open about flirting with most woman, being hit on non-amicable by gay men is pretty much the only experience of really getting violated in their privacy for many of them, even if it happens only on tv or as a result of a misunderstanding. And that can give you the creeps, even if you are pretty open-minded. As long as it doesn't result in homophobia, no need to condemn it.

The real problem is: It's usually only the bad guys on tv who are homosexual (bonus points if they are women in leather outfits), never the good guys or even important minor characters. That really needs to change.

So let's add 'add a recurring gay character' to our list for redoing DS9 and get back to topic

I presume it's the same as somebody cringing at Lwaxana aggressively pursuing men who are clearly not into her (as Bad Thoughts was earlier in this thread) or me being put-off by the Doctor's behavior towards Seven of Nine. I don't think it was meant to be anti-gay by dub, just anti creepin'.
It's the slightly predatory aspect, the old, and very subjective, comedy trope of the "abhorrent admirer" that's the problem here, not the sexes of those involved.
Garak, not matter if gay, straight or bi, is very, very creepy and reptilian and Bashir is clearly uncomfortable in that scene. It's up to personal opinion to find that funny or cringe worthy, just like with Lwaxana.

Now I have an idea for a ST-themed version of "Do the Creep" starring Garrik, Lwaxana and the EMH

Bashir looks like someone who can take care of himself. That's all that matters to me.

 

[Sidewinder]

Wasn't Lt. Hawk supposed to be gay? They killed him off too early in First Contact for anyone to know one way or another. But I thought I heard that somewhere.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

Wasn't Lt. Hawk supposed to be gay? They killed him off too early in First Contact for anyone to know one way or another. But I thought I heard that somewhere.

You think he had a coming out party planned sometime after the borg attacked Enterprise?



Worf: I do not understand this ritual.

Data: I think it has to do with people without enough closet space.

 

[Admiral Bear]

Wasn't Lt. Hawk supposed to be gay? They killed him off too early in First Contact for anyone to know one way or another. But I thought I heard that somewhere.

Maybe in Trek Heaven, Hawk got a posting on the USS Excelsior and found himself under Captain Sulu. . . .

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

Wasn't Lt. Hawk supposed to be gay? They killed him off too early in First Contact for anyone to know one way or another. But I thought I heard that somewhere.

Maybe in Trek Heaven, Hawk got a posting on the USS Excelsior and found himself under Captain Sulu. . . .

[George Takei] Oh my! [/George Takei]

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

Wasn't Lt. Hawk supposed to be gay? They killed him off too early in First Contact for anyone to know one way or another. But I thought I heard that somewhere.

Maybe in Trek Heaven, Hawk got a posting on the USS Excelsior and found himself under Captain Sulu. . . .

[George Takei] Oh my! [/George Takei]

You mean George Takei is...

 

[Orphalesion]

^ you didn't know? It's a really big part of his public persona these days.

 

[CrazyMatt]

Maybe in Trek Heaven, Hawk got a posting on the USS Excelsior and found himself under Captain Sulu. . . .

Yikes!

 

[Bad Thoughts]

^ you didn't know? It's a really big part of his public persona these days.

You're talking about his television commercials for Sharp ... the one that has more colors of the raindbow ... right?

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

^ you didn't know? It's a really big part of his public persona these days.

I am really here for the series and the movies. I typically don't follow these things. Unless I learn about them by accident, like here.

 

[Orphalesion]

^ Oh, same here, I don't really care about the actor's personal lives. I was just surprised because he is very vocal about his orientation and it saturates almost everything he does these days and many Star Trek fans make quite a big deal about, especially when discussing scenes were Zulu flirts with women.

 

[Dobian]

^ you didn't know? It's a really big part of his public persona these days.

I am really here for the series and the movies. I typically don't follow these things. Unless I learn about them by accident, like here.

Takei came out years ago. He's even spoofed it on a few tv shows.

 

[Dobian]

....

To be honest, I don't like the TNG-era Romulans. And the klingons barely. They certainly have potential in capable hands. But through endless repetition they have become totally clichés and walking stereotypes. Everything about the klingons has to do with honour and battle, and every plot involving Romulans is one with deceit and intrigue.

A lot of it has to do with the writing. Star Trek has always danced on the edge of camp, as opposed to serious hardcore sci fi drama. It always tried to keep things light and fun, and never stay heavy for too long before tossing in a Quark episode here or a Q episode there, or some holosuite shenanigans. So Klingons and Romulans tend to be one-dimensional. They could easily be fleshed out and explored in all their complexities if given a serious dramatic treatment, but you'd probably lose the mainstream audience.

 

[Admiral Bear]

scenes were Zulu flirts with women.

Zulus, thousands of them!

OH MY!!!!!!!

 

[Rahul]

...

To be honest, I don't like the TNG-era Romulans. And the klingons barely. They certainly have potential in capable hands. But through endless repetition they have become totally clichés and walking stereotypes. Everything about the klingons has to do with honour and battle, and every plot involving Romulans is one with deceit and intrigue.

A lot of it has to do with the writing. Star Trek has always danced on the edge of camp, as opposed to serious hardcore sci fi drama. It always tried to keep things light and fun, and never stay heavy for too long before tossing in a Quark episode here or a Q episode there, or some holosuite shenanigans. So Klingons and Romulans tend to be one-dimensional. They could easily be fleshed out and explored in all their complexities if given a serious dramatic treatment, but you'd probably lose the mainstream audience.

I think it has less to do with camp writing vs. serious writing, and mostly about good writing vs. bad writing. The Original Series is very campy, light and fun. And still, they got the Romulans right. And the Klingons (so much in fact that they became pop cultural icons).

And that's IMO where the problem lies: Most (modern Trek) writers seem to have such a clear vision of what makes a 'good' klingon or romulan, that what they write becomes the result of popculture osmosis, and less independant characters.

Lesser known races like the Andorians on ENT or she Cardassians on TNG and DS9 on the other hand aren't that clear defined, so the focus is more on the individual character. Whether it's serious (like TNG's 'The wounded' or Gul Dukat at it's best) or funny on the verge of camp (Garak at times). Which, ironically, results in a more realistic and distinct culture and species.