Re-Doing DS9?

[Orphalesion]

Actually, making someone like Garak gay simply because of the way he talks would do more to feed prejudice than anything else. Most gay people are indistinguishable from the straight kind unless they want to advertise their gayness so that even a country bumpkin would understand.

I know, I'm gay myself and I don't talk or move in a particularly "feminine" manner and I agree that a effeminate ex-space Nazi turned dressmaker would not have been the best choice for ST's first homosexual character.
I however meant that he was obviously flirting with Bashir when they first met and read that the writers were told by the producers to stop writing him like that.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

Actually, making someone like Garak gay simply because of the way he talks would do more to feed prejudice than anything else. Most gay people are indistinguishable from the straight kind unless they want to advertise their gayness so that even a country bumpkin would understand.

I know, I'm gay myself and I don't talk or move in a particularly "feminine" manner and I agree that a effeminate ex-space Nazi turned dressmaker would not have been the best choice for ST's first homosexual character.
I however meant that he was obviously flirting with Bashir when they first met and read that the writers were told by the producers to stop writing him like that.

I see, I never saw it that way. It's funny because gay people must have been flirting with me but I never noticed it. Well, I guess they must be used to it. Straight women notice it when you are coming on to them but sometimes they pretend not to which in the end amounts to the same result.

 

[kkt]

I never thought of Garak as gay. He dated Ziyal, he remarked on how attractive what's-her-name the shopkeeper who was interested in Odo was in one episode.
Garak has a somewhat dramatic manner of speaking, which I think is him presenting his story in the most effective way.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

I never thought of Garak as gay. He dated Ziyal, he remarked on how attractive what's-her-name the shopkeeper who was interested in Odo was in one episode.

I'm gay but can still admit that some women are attractive--they just do nothing for me.

Garak is a shade of grey (no pun intended), so I like that he has his 'flirty' moments with Bashir but also has an interest in females.

Then again since no character has ever said outright "I only date/boff" the opposite sex, maybe they've all had dalliances with the same gender--this is the 24th century after all

 

[Bad Thoughts]

5. Don't make it World War II in space
Seriously. The war against alien opressors has become totally clichéd by this point. EVERY scifi show does it. From every Stargate show, Babylon 5, Andromeda, Space above and beyond, Battlestar Galactica, clone wars, Defiance and every other show ever. Really, I think a big draw to Star Trek (well, at least the other four series) has been always that it doesn't do the WAR IN SPACE stuff. So: either avoid it totally, or do something we have never seen before. This is why I think the conflict with the Borg is much more interesting than the war against other alien nations: The Borg are truly different. How do you cope with something so strange and alien? Can normal diplomacy even work? So if you have to do a war against aliens, make it more like the Bug War from Starship Troopers (the book, not the film), where it is even unclear if the rules of engagement even apply.

I prefer the DS9 approach to war better than most of those other franchises. THe conflict was over more "earthy" matters, like a contemporary war. IT's over different political outlooks and strategic issues, not trumped up biological issues that are otherwise unresolvable. More importantly, it cannot end without negotiations: the Borg ending, which is the context of BOBW itself, really is contrived. War has no backdoors or secret handshakes that will make the planes stop flying. In DS9, the Jem'hadar would have fought to the bitter end had there not been an effort by Odo to communicate the values of the Federation to the Female Changeling.

OTOH, Season Seven referenced World War Two movies too much. I'm surprised Vic didn't say, "Here's looking at you, Kira"

 

[Bad Thoughts]

I know, I'm gay myself and I don't talk or move in a particularly "feminine" manner and I agree that a effeminate ex-space Nazi turned dressmaker would not have been the best choice for ST's first homosexual character.
I however meant that he was obviously flirting with Bashir when they first met and read that the writers were told by the producers to stop writing him like that.

I never thought Robinson was interpreting Garak as a gay character, andonly learned about it when I started reading this forum. However, I really didn't see that when I rewatched Past Prologue. Looking for a "gay" performance, what I saw was more predatory, more like Hans Beckert from M. I think it would have been a major problem had they wanted to make Garak's homosexuality a part of his public persona.

Gay ex-Nazi dressmakers? Is that the worst Mel Brooks movie ... or the best Mel Brooks movie?

 

[Orphalesion]

^ I agree somewhat Garak could have earned flag from fans for being a "negative gay stereotype" and I'm fairly sure that's what I would call him had they gone through with it (talk about unpleasable )
Yet, was his interaction with Bashir any worse than Lwaxana's behavior towards Picard or Odo? Why would it be okay for Lwaxana to aggressively pursue people who are clearly not into her and it's hilarious, but it would not be for Garrik? I actually found his meeting with Bashir hilarious.
As we established earlier us gay people come in just as many shapes and colours as straight ones (literally the only difference being the sex one prefers) and some homosexual people are scumbags (or would it be more right to say some scumbags are homosexual?)

The problem would have, of course, been that Garrik would have been the first and (so far) only gay character in Star Trek. Having the only gay character in your humongous franchise be a negative, somewhat stereotypical character is not the best idea, I agree.
However if Garrik had been allowed to be gay, perhaps we'd have gotten a more positive gay character by Voyager or Enterprise. Hey, even Bashir could have turned out to be gay, his desperate pursuit of Jadzia little more than him trying to proof to everybody ad himself how "heterosexual" he is.

As for the Mel Brooks movie, it would not be out of place in "The Producers", would it?

 

[Bad Thoughts]

^ I agree somewhat Garak could have earned flag from fans for being a "negative gay stereotype" and I'm fairly sure that's what I would call him had they gone through with it (talk about unpleasable )
Yet, was his interaction with Bashir any worse than Lwaxana's behavior towards Picard or Odo? Why would it be okay for Lwaxana to aggressively pursue people who are clearly not into her and it's hilarious, but it would not be for Garrik? I actually found his meeting with Bashir hilarious.
As we established earlier us gay people come in just as many shapes and colours as straight ones (literally the only difference being the sex one prefers) and some homosexual people are scumbags (or would it be more right to say some scumbags are homosexual?)

The problem would have, of course, been that Garrik would have been the first and (so far) only gay character in Star Trek. Having the only gay character in your humongous franchise be a negative, somewhat stereotypical character is not the best idea, I agree.
However if Garrik had been allowed to be gay, perhaps we'd have gotten a more positive gay character by Voyager or Enterprise. Hey, even Bashir could have turned out to be gay, his desperate pursuit of Jadzia little more than him trying to proof to everybody ad himself how "heterosexual" he is.

As for the Mel Brooks movie, it would not be out of place in "The Producers", would it?

I agree with everything, except your use of Lwaxana Troi as a counterexample. Her behavior made me cringe.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

I never thought of Garak as gay. He dated Ziyal, he remarked on how attractive what's-her-name the shopkeeper who was interested in Odo was in one episode.

I'm gay but can still admit that some women are attractive--they just do nothing for me.

Garak is a shade of grey (no pun intended), so I like that he has his 'flirty' moments with Bashir but also has an interest in females.

Then again since no character has ever said outright "I only date/boff" the opposite sex, maybe they've all had dalliances with the same gender--this is the 24th century after all

Well, for all we know, maybe the Cardassians are mostly bi, which makes you wonder what happened in that room with Picard, and why he was naked and handcuffed to the ceiling...

 

[dub]

Did anyone else think Garak was going to "come out" at some point during the series? Especially when Ziyal started coming on to him...and even during their relationship. I know he was uncomfortable because of her age and because of her father, but somehow I just thought he was hesitating largely because, being the private person he is, he was in the closet. Turns out I was wrong. Or was I?

As far as his performance in the opening scene of "Past Prologue," I just found certain moments creepy. The soft hands on the shoulders. The delivery of the line "if you need a friend from time to time...as I do..." Those two moments give me the creeps for some reason specifically between Garak and Bashir. I think because this (what I thought was obviously) gay reptile was coming onto this overly nervous young doctor. I can see why some people would find it funny. It just gave me the heebyjeebies.

 

[Dobian]

Hey guys!


5. More major alien nations

I've always been the opposite on this. I think Star Trek went overboard with the alien of the week. Okay last week we had the tentacle head people, this week it's the squid face people. In the previews we have the bleu cheese face people. And you never learn much of anything about these civilizations, the fact that it's a different kind of alien really only serves for visual variety. But I think about how much deeper these shows could have gone in the exploration of just a couple of races instead of hundreds. I would have loved it if Star Trek focused its attention more fully on Klingons and Romulans and Vulcans, it barely scratched the surface with them. Too many races also just stretched the credibility factor too much. It's hard enough to imagine three or four races existing in the same section of the galaxy at around the same technological level, dozens upon dozens of them makes you really have to suspend disbelief.

5. Don't make it World War II in space

I agree on this one. It gets draining after awhile. The Dominion arc should have been finished in two seasons and move on.

 

[Rahul]

Hey guys!


5. More major alien nations

I've always been the opposite on this. I think Star Trek went overboard with the alien of the week. Okay last week we had the tentacle head people, this week it's the squid face people. In the previews we have the bleu cheese face people. And you never learn much of anything about these civilizations, the fact that it's a different kind of alien really only serves for visual variety. But I think about how much deeper these shows could have gone in the exploration of just a couple of races instead of hundreds. I would have loved it if Star Trek focused its attention more fully on Klingons and Romulans and Vulcans, it barely scratched the surface with them. Too many races also just stretched the credibility factor too much. It's hard enough to imagine three or four races existing in the same section of the galaxy at around the same technological level, dozens upon dozens of them makes you really have to suspend disbelief.

Hey Dobian!

You probably got me wrong there: This was exactly my point!

I HATE the clichéd 'alien of the week' - race. Peoples that we see once and then are never mentioned or heard of again. This is why I want a few more MAJOR alien races, that return regularly. Maybe five or six, with every season each of them reapperaing one or two times, so we get to know each of them much better, learn more about them and have story arcs about fully fleshed out people.

 

[Rahul]

Did anyone else think Garak was going to "come out" at some point during the series? Especially when Ziyal started coming on to him...and even during their relationship. I know he was uncomfortable because of her age and because of her father, but somehow I just thought he was hesitating largely because, being the private person he is, he was in the closet. Turns out I was wrong. Or was I?

As far as his performance in the opening scene of "Past Prologue," I just found certain moments creepy. The soft hands on the shoulders. The delivery of the line "if you need a friend from time to time...as I do..." Those two moments give me the creeps for some reason specifically between Garak and Bashir. I think because this (what I thought was obviously) gay reptile was coming onto this overly nervous young doctor. I can see why some people would find it funny. It just gave me the heebyjeebies.

To be honest: I didn't got the feeling he was gay. Or even hitting on Julian for that matter.

Males touching each other, holding hands etc. is actually quite common in many non-western societies. So yeah, he was invading Bashirs personal space and acting like a close friend even though he clearly wasn't, and Julian was visibly unconfortable with it. But for me it looked more like a rouse for those people watching Garak, a way for Garak to deliver critical information to Starfleet and getting personal ties to the current people in charge.
So killing three birds with one stone, all while remaining obscure. Which seems to be absolutely in character for 'plain, simple Garak'.


That being said, adding a main character who is gay is something that is long overdue on Star Trek.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

Did anyone else think Garak was going to "come out" at some point during the series? Especially when Ziyal started coming on to him...and even during their relationship. I know he was uncomfortable because of her age and because of her father, but somehow I just thought he was hesitating largely because, being the private person he is, he was in the closet. Turns out I was wrong. Or was I?

As far as his performance in the opening scene of "Past Prologue," I just found certain moments creepy. The soft hands on the shoulders. The delivery of the line "if you need a friend from time to time...as I do..." Those two moments give me the creeps for some reason specifically between Garak and Bashir. I think because this (what I thought was obviously) gay reptile was coming onto this overly nervous young doctor. I can see why some people would find it funny. It just gave me the heebyjeebies.

I don't see why it should give you the creeps or make you feel uncomfortable, unless you thought it possible that Garak was going to rape Bashir, short of that, what goes on between two consenting adults is their own business. It's not like they were going to show us anything, so why this apprehension?

 

[dub]

It's like this...I don't see why everyone shouldn't love the later seasons of DS9, but there are those who don't. What can I say? It just gave me the creeps. "YMMV" as they say. I should have typed that.

 

[Rahul]

....

I don't see why it should give you the creeps or make you feel uncomfortable, unless you thought it possible that Garak was going to rape Bashir, short of that, what goes on between two consenting adults is their own business. It's not like they were going to show us anything, so why this apprehension?

Well, why not? No need to get personal or even bring up rape here. As someone who is absolutely for equal rights, I would still be unconfortable when another man would invade my private space. In fact I was pretty much creeped out myself by the scene in the latest Bond flick 'Skyfall', where the bad guy forces himself on Bond by seductivly touching his legs. It's a very effective scene in this way, which makes you think about such things and how you would personally react, and admire Bonds non-defensive response.

It's never pleasant if someone forces himself into an intimate situation with you (many girls in bars can tell you a story or two). But since most man are quite open about flirting with most woman, being hit on non-amicable by gay men is pretty much the only experience of really getting violated in their privacy for many of them, even if it happens only on tv or as a result of a misunderstanding. And that can give you the creeps, even if you are pretty open-minded. As long as it doesn't result in homophobia, no need to condemn it.

The real problem is: It's usually only the bad guys on tv who are homosexual (bonus points if they are women in leather outfits), never the good guys or even important minor characters. That really needs to change.

So let's add 'add a recurring gay character' to our list for redoing DS9 and get back to topic

 

[Sidewinder]

The actor who played Garak said that he never meant to play him as gay.

"I had planned Garak not as homosexual or heterosexual but omnisexual, and the first episode I had with Bashir played that way gave people fits. So I had to remove that characteristic from him." -Andrew J. Robinson

Plus, if you're going to make your first gay character in Trek history, would you really want him to be a spy who betrayed Dukat's father and had him tortured and killed? I don't think such a ruthless, albeit reformed by the end of the series, would that have gone over so well?

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

....

I don't see why it should give you the creeps or make you feel uncomfortable, unless you thought it possible that Garak was going to rape Bashir, short of that, what goes on between two consenting adults is their own business. It's not like they were going to show us anything, so why this apprehension?

Well, why not? No need to get personal or even bring up rape here. As someone who is absolutely for equal rights, I would still be unconfortable when another man would invade my private space. In fact I was pretty much creeped out myself by the scene in the latest Bond flick 'Skyfall', where the bad guy forces himself on Bond by seductivly touching his legs. It's a very effective scene in this way, which makes you think about such things and how you would personally react, and admire Bonds non-defensive response.

It's never pleasant if someone forces himself into an intimate situation with you (many girls in bars can tell you a story or two). But since most man are quite open about flirting with most woman, being hit on non-amicable by gay men is pretty much the only experience of really getting violated in their privacy for many of them, even if it happens only on tv or as a result of a misunderstanding. And that can give you the creeps, even if you are pretty open-minded. As long as it doesn't result in homophobia, no need to condemn it.

The real problem is: It's usually only the bad guys on tv who are homosexual (bonus points if they are women in leather outfits), never the good guys or even important minor characters. That really needs to change.

So let's add 'add a recurring gay character' to our list for redoing DS9 and get back to topic

I would have welcomed a gay character as a refreshing change. Come on! They talk about three sexes, species that reproduce by budding, but in all these hundreds of hours of program not a single acknowledgement of someone being gay!! In fact said like that, that sounds really bad to me, awful even.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

The actor who played Garak said that he never meant to play him as gay.

"I had planned Garak not as homosexual or heterosexual but omnisexual, and the first episode I had with Bashir played that way gave people fits. So I had to remove that characteristic from him." -Andrew J. Robinson

Plus, if you're going to make your first gay character in Trek history, would you really want him to be a spy who betrayed Dukat's father and had him tortured and killed? I don't think such a ruthless, albeit reformed by the end of the series, would that have gone over so well?

I don't think it matters if a gay character is a villain as long as being gay is not part of why he's a villain, if you see what I mean.

 

[Dobian]

Hey Dobian!

You probably got me wrong there: This was exactly my point!

I HATE the clichéd 'alien of the week' - race. Peoples that we see once and then are never mentioned or heard of again. This is why I want a few more MAJOR alien races, that return regularly. Maybe five or six, with every season each of them reappering one or two times, so we get to know each of them much better, learn more about them and have story arcs about fully fleshed out people.

Oh okay, well my comments are still pretty much the same. Instead of introducing more major races, they already have a bunch of existing major races that could use a lot more exploring. You can pick any one of them and do an entire series featuring just Romulans, or just Klingons, the volume of material you could mine would be endless.