^Yes, I thought the graveyard scenes in general had an eerie 1970s-zombie-movie style feel to them.
Rate 8x12: Death In Heaven
- Thread starter Lonemagpie
- Start date
That's a great way to describe it and a perfect analogy!
Perhaps it would've been better without trying to shoehorn in the season long (and longer) arc stuff. It seemed particularly haphazard how those were attempted to be worked in. But, agreed, just too many scenes that were a string of loosely connected events.
None of the characters really did much in this story, not the Doctor, Master, Clara, or Kate. Danny did after a techno-sonic to his suit. However, it was mainly people standing around talking.
Mr Awe
I have a slight quibble with what you wrote. I don't think fans think too much about it. I think the casual viewer thinks too little. Now, don't get me wrong. That doesn't mean non-fans have to be as fixated on it as fans.
However, non-fans should be able to recognize a sloppy script when they see one. A string of loosely connected events that don't move the plot forward should be as recognizeable to non-fans as fans. Non-fans should also be able to see when things just don't make sense.
That said, I did for the most part enjoy the current season. Perhaps it was a bit more "miss" than "hit" compared to previous seasons. The big difference for me is that the low points this season were MUCH lower than the low points of previous seasons (season finale included). I think the stories I liked, I liked as much as previous years.
I also think Capaldi is fantastic in the role. Hopefully he'll be around for awhile.
I've enjoyed Moffat's work but I'm starting to think it's time for him to move on. Maybe he can go out with a bang with season 9?
Mr Awe
Both comments perfectly sum up a large percentage of Moffat scripts since he took over. In particular, both Day of the Doctor and Time of the Doctor were basically just "This happened AND THEN this happens AND THEN this happens" and so on, meanwhile pretty much all his season finales are largely just people standing around talking. Name of the Doctor was probably the worse at this, in that it was basically just long, drawn out monologues about what the characters were going to do before they actually did them. For example, Clara delivered a drawn out monologue talking about jumping into the Doctor's timestream and the necessity of it before actually doing it.
There's also a jab at Belgians in the episode, which is not clearly listenable with the music blaring. Missy tells her boys to blow up Belgium because the Belgians, though they might think they are French, are not French. Can someone elucidate what the joke here is?
I am a little confused on who was placed in the Netherspace. Was it:
a.) the recently deceased (Seb)
b.) every human who ever lived since the first concept of an afterlife was first believed, past, present, future (Doctor)
c.) every human on the Doctor's timeline - who interacted with him and who died for him (Missy)
Looking at the cemetery display, not all the dead were being activated by the cyber pollen.
Finally, what was causing the Netherspace to shut down?
I am a little confused on who was placed in the Netherspace. Was it:
a.) the recently deceased (Seb)
b.) every human who ever lived since the first concept of an afterlife was first believed, past, present, future (Doctor)
c.) every human on the Doctor's timeline - who interacted with him and who died for him (Missy)
Looking at the cemetery display, not all the dead were being activated by the cyber pollen.
Finally, what was causing the Netherspace to shut down?
My feelings on Cyber-Brig have changed over the weekend, the more thought I gave it.
I didn't like it at first. I did feel like it was a little disrespectful to both Courtney and the character he played. Especially the character he played; the Brig, someone who spent his entire career fighting monsters like the Cybermen, was now a Cyberman himself.
Yes, it does make sense that some past Doctor Who characters would turn up as Cybermen. I almost think that Moffat had to have a Cyber-converted character, just to show the stakes. Only, any character other than the Brig wouldn't have worked in Moffat's set-up because they weren't connected to the characters within this story. Amy and Rory wouldn't have worked (and they were probably far too degraded to work as Cybermen if they died in the 70s or 80s); they have no connected to this Doctor or anything happening in the story. Same with Pete Tyler or Donna's dad; these aren't characters who have relevance to the characters inside this story. The presence of Kate demands that the Cyber-converted past character has to be the Brig. She has a direct connection to the Cyber-Brig. He's not just some random character thrown in for fanwank purposes. He makes sense narratively.
And, when I proceeded from there, I started to be okay with it. I have even come to the tentative conclusion that Courtney would have been okay with the Cyber-Brig, because the Cyber-Brig can always come back. The character he created will live on. This character can always be there, being a hero despite the fact that he looks like a Cyberman. Yeah, it's a little strange, but strange is what Doctor Who does.
Captain Scarlett less so.
Well they could have done the scene differently. She didn't fall out of the plane. The Doctor saved her, Osgood came back somehow and saved her. The character was purposely put in danger with the scene in mind so I don't see it as serving the narrative. I see her impending death as serving that scene to show the Brig as a Cyberman.
Really? You really think it's a nice idea that the Brig is now a Cyberman, his bones in a metal suit? Really? Does anyone want to see a continuation with the character now this way? I sure as hell don't.
I didn't say it was a "nice idea." I said I was "okay with it." The idea doesn't completely offend me. Perhaps the Cyber-Brig could have been handled differently and more sensitively, but I'm okay with it.
I really liked Capaldi's "I'm an idiot" speech. His line about being an idiot with a box and a screwdriver who mills around and tries to help perfectly captured the essence of the doctor.
Did Missy really think that the doctor would "come over to the dark side" and join her? I get that Missy thought that the doctor had no choice because if he refused then the cybermen would destroy earth and the rest of the universe, but did she really expect it to work? After all, the doctor is always the one that finds a way to save the day and do what is good even when it looks like he has no choice.
I also think that Missy's line about how the doctor secretly wishes he had an army did not really work here with Capaldi's doctor. I think it would have worked much better with Smith or Tennant's doctor. After all, it was Smith's doctor that actually did raise an army just to save his friend's baby in A Good Man Goes to War. And it was Tennant's doctor that seemed dangerously close to the edge of insanity in Waters of Mars when he declared himself Timelord Victorious. On the other hand, we don't really know Capaldi's doctor all that well yet. All we have is his question about being a good man and the dalek's statement that he would make a good dalek. I never felt like the doctor giving in to the temptation of having an army to do his bidding was ever a real possibility.
I did really like the actress that played Missy. I think she did a fantastic job of playing a female version of the master. She was charismatic, insane, evil, deceitful, everything you would expect from the master.
UNIT leaving Missy in handcuffs next to the Tardis with only 2 guards and Osgood in a small compartment on a plane was a new kind of stupid. Osgood even says that UNIT has records of everything Simm's Master did as PM. So, surely, they knew what kind of threat the master posed. Definitely a case of the good guys going temporarily stupid for the sake of the plot.
As much as RTD's finales were ridiculous, over the top, fanwank, at least he knew how to do end of the world grand epic finales! I feel like this finale, especially with the reveal that Missy just wanted her friend back, never felt grand enough. I never really felt the suspense that the world was going to end like I did in RTD's finales.
Did Missy really think that the doctor would "come over to the dark side" and join her? I get that Missy thought that the doctor had no choice because if he refused then the cybermen would destroy earth and the rest of the universe, but did she really expect it to work? After all, the doctor is always the one that finds a way to save the day and do what is good even when it looks like he has no choice.
I also think that Missy's line about how the doctor secretly wishes he had an army did not really work here with Capaldi's doctor. I think it would have worked much better with Smith or Tennant's doctor. After all, it was Smith's doctor that actually did raise an army just to save his friend's baby in A Good Man Goes to War. And it was Tennant's doctor that seemed dangerously close to the edge of insanity in Waters of Mars when he declared himself Timelord Victorious. On the other hand, we don't really know Capaldi's doctor all that well yet. All we have is his question about being a good man and the dalek's statement that he would make a good dalek. I never felt like the doctor giving in to the temptation of having an army to do his bidding was ever a real possibility.
I did really like the actress that played Missy. I think she did a fantastic job of playing a female version of the master. She was charismatic, insane, evil, deceitful, everything you would expect from the master.
UNIT leaving Missy in handcuffs next to the Tardis with only 2 guards and Osgood in a small compartment on a plane was a new kind of stupid. Osgood even says that UNIT has records of everything Simm's Master did as PM. So, surely, they knew what kind of threat the master posed. Definitely a case of the good guys going temporarily stupid for the sake of the plot.
As much as RTD's finales were ridiculous, over the top, fanwank, at least he knew how to do end of the world grand epic finales! I feel like this finale, especially with the reveal that Missy just wanted her friend back, never felt grand enough. I never really felt the suspense that the world was going to end like I did in RTD's finales.
One of the Cyberman was a person who died in 1740. Considering the burial practices of the age, where the probability is that the bones were badly degraded by time, it is not improbable that both Amy and Rory Pond were resurrected as Cyberman. The cyber pollen needed organic material to latch onto for the conversion process. I am thinking of the process where the female in Fifth Element was resurrected from a fragment of organic material.
Not all the graves would have bodies. When they did forensic work on bodies recovered from the Titanic at Halifax Cemetery, the scientists discovered the bodies had been dissolved by water. They were able to recover a small piece of bone fragment from a baby because an artifact had become attached to it, thus preserving it.
I bring this up, because the cloud was reported over the major land masses, but not the ocean. There are skeletons in the ocean. I have seen images of skulls and other bones on wrecks sunk in the 1940s. Does water interfere with the process?
If a person was born in the future, and died in the future, and had their "soul" in the Netherspace, did they rise from the grave? Was the cloud in multiple time periods, or in just one time period?
Not all the graves would have bodies. When they did forensic work on bodies recovered from the Titanic at Halifax Cemetery, the scientists discovered the bodies had been dissolved by water. They were able to recover a small piece of bone fragment from a baby because an artifact had become attached to it, thus preserving it.
I bring this up, because the cloud was reported over the major land masses, but not the ocean. There are skeletons in the ocean. I have seen images of skulls and other bones on wrecks sunk in the 1940s. Does water interfere with the process?
If a person was born in the future, and died in the future, and had their "soul" in the Netherspace, did they rise from the grave? Was the cloud in multiple time periods, or in just one time period?
^ For any older skeleton, even less than a decade old. The only thing left are the bones themselves. Mostly calcium and no real organic material. If the Cybermen/Missy tech could revive those mineral remains, it really didn't even need bodies to create the new Cybermen.
Part of what made Cybermen so striking was that they ripped out the brain with rotating knives and placed in it to a mechanical body they provided. Having 'Cyber-Pollen' create a mechanical form inside a grave from nothing just does not make any sense to me. If they had used something other than Cybermen, made up a totally new enemy it would have been much better.
One question- how/why did Missy end up with the Clockwork guy in 'Deep Breath'? It would seem he would not have any parts applicable to making a Cyberman.
I wonder if they had any idea of the arc's endgame when they started the whole Missy thing of if they wrote themselves into a box and had to cobble together something to resolve it...
One question- how/why did Missy end up with the Clockwork guy in 'Deep Breath'? It would seem he would not have any parts applicable to making a Cyberman.
I wonder if they had any idea of the arc's endgame when they started the whole Missy thing of if they wrote themselves into a box and had to cobble together something to resolve it...
It's not an if, unfortunately.
There is a shot of a gravestone which lists the birthday and deathday of a human who lived in the early 18th century. From the grave itself, a Cyberman hand is seen rising from the ground.
For the cyber pollen to single out one species, and to distinguish that one species from its closest relatives, deceased and alive, each seed would need to be a self-contained hardware package with software that can detect human dna and filter out contamination. Furthermore, unless the grave was a shallow pit, most graves are six feet under, so the seed would need to have the capacity of actually moving through the soil, otherwise the seed would land on the surface and stay on the surface.
So, in summary, each seed is a hardware packet with a software package
* that can locate human remains through advanced sensors
* then the seed would have tiny motion devices that can burrow through grass, stone, or whatever is between the seed and the corpse
* then the seed would need to have something to latch onto the corpse (how much of the corpse is required for the conversion process?)
* then the seed would implant the corpse with cybernetic implants
* then the Netherspace would connect with the Cyberman, downloading the "soul" of the deceased, with their emotions deleted
If I go by the hard water tanks, then the Cybermen don't need muscles or tissues or organs. They are skeletons in hard metal suits. So, is the "soul" downloaded into a databank in the suit? And, why is Danny Pink shown as having muscles and tissues and organs? Shouldn't it be that when he took off his face plate, that what Clara saw was his skull?
There is a shot of a gravestone which lists the birthday and deathday of a human who lived in the early 18th century. From the grave itself, a Cyberman hand is seen rising from the ground.
For the cyber pollen to single out one species, and to distinguish that one species from its closest relatives, deceased and alive, each seed would need to be a self-contained hardware package with software that can detect human dna and filter out contamination. Furthermore, unless the grave was a shallow pit, most graves are six feet under, so the seed would need to have the capacity of actually moving through the soil, otherwise the seed would land on the surface and stay on the surface.
So, in summary, each seed is a hardware packet with a software package
* that can locate human remains through advanced sensors
* then the seed would have tiny motion devices that can burrow through grass, stone, or whatever is between the seed and the corpse
* then the seed would need to have something to latch onto the corpse (how much of the corpse is required for the conversion process?)
* then the seed would implant the corpse with cybernetic implants
* then the Netherspace would connect with the Cyberman, downloading the "soul" of the deceased, with their emotions deleted
If I go by the hard water tanks, then the Cybermen don't need muscles or tissues or organs. They are skeletons in hard metal suits. So, is the "soul" downloaded into a databank in the suit? And, why is Danny Pink shown as having muscles and tissues and organs? Shouldn't it be that when he took off his face plate, that what Clara saw was his skull?
I think, overall, I enjoyed this one. I used to come away from Moffat finales a bit confused - "so they reboot the universe by throwing the magic box into the exploding tardis. Then the doctor comes back too because amy remembers him.... Okay." Like, a lot of things were explained a quick-fire handwave. This one, however, fitted together a bit more solidly.
Although as some people have pointed out, none of the characters really do anything to affect events, until the doctor throws the cyber-control-bracelet thing to Danny. They're just sort of swept up in events. Making the Doctor President of the World was especially pointless.
Not sure I buy the idea of people getting cyber-converted by rain. I get that the rain prolly had some sort of nano-tech inside but where did it get all the metal to make an android body? But I might be thinking too hard about it.
Little Afghan kid gettign his physical body back, okay I'm going to have to suspend disbelief even more now.
Missy was a great villain. Charismatic, compelling and totally unhinged. I hope to see her again - I'm pretty sure that's the teleport effect we saw and not disintegrate.
The final scene with the Doctor and Clara was rather effective. A bittersweet farewell built on a stack of lies.
Although as some people have pointed out, none of the characters really do anything to affect events, until the doctor throws the cyber-control-bracelet thing to Danny. They're just sort of swept up in events. Making the Doctor President of the World was especially pointless.
Not sure I buy the idea of people getting cyber-converted by rain. I get that the rain prolly had some sort of nano-tech inside but where did it get all the metal to make an android body? But I might be thinking too hard about it.
Little Afghan kid gettign his physical body back, okay I'm going to have to suspend disbelief even more now.
Missy was a great villain. Charismatic, compelling and totally unhinged. I hope to see her again - I'm pretty sure that's the teleport effect we saw and not disintegrate.
The final scene with the Doctor and Clara was rather effective. A bittersweet farewell built on a stack of lies.
I have been finding it fascinating. It's almost like Moffat has been trying to see just how far he can push the envelope of Doctor Who to the breaking point. The Doctor and Clara (and Danny) seem to be in this relationship that is really toxic for each other and yet they are fully committed to each other above all else. Even lies and betrayals can't break it.
I've been reevaluating it and as conflicted as I was watching it this season I think Moffat actually made a bold move with the approach this series. In previous years when the Doctor asks if he is a good man the program has always replied "Yes" but this time not so much. Even Missy's plan wasn't to destroy the Doctor as it was to corrupt him. And there's been a distinct lack of timey-wimey stuff this time around.
I wonder if next series will feature "an idiot in a box" or not. I can see the groundwork laid for a return to form if that's what they want.
As with others, I have mixed feelings about this episode.
The Cyb-Brig was a giant "fuck you" from Moffatt to Nicholas Courtney. He couldn't be bothered with bringing the actor back while he was alive, so that's how he deals with it?
We've spent a full season at Cole Hill School, and not one cameo from William Russell. I can only imagine Moffatt will pull the same kind of bullshit after Russell has passed, as a "tribute" to Ian. These actors are NOT immortal. Give them one last opportunity to shine.
Missy's plan - taking over the world, controlling the dead - was perfectly in line with what the character did in End of Time. I don't think she's even slightly "bananas" ... I think she was playing up to how people thought of her when she was The Master, playing with their expectations, tricking them into doing whatever she wanted.
Clara - In the hands of a better writer, she could have been an interesting character. Instead, she's nothing but a paint-by-numbers plot device. If I was playing the role of Clara, I'd be wanting to leave the series too. I can only imagine how frustrated the actress is, coming onto the series as the Companion, and then being ... Clara. She's not the Impossible Girl. She's the Plot Device With Dialog.
Danny Pink - Anyone could have delivered that speech at the end. It seems like his character was created specifically to give that speech, and then head off into the clouds and blow up. You know who else would have been perfectly fine doing that? Mike Yates or Benton. It would have been ridiculously easy to bring either of them back, kill them off, and give them the "becomes the not-Cyb Cyberman who gives a big speech then blows up" storyline. There would have been a connection with Kate as well. Having Cyb-Yates or Cyb-Benton (again, in the hands of a better writer) could have brought up the Cyb-Brig cameo in a way that doesn't make me want to punch Moffatt in the face.
I'm not sure why some are thinking the Doctor didn't really look for Gallifrey while he was there. The only timeframe we're given is that it took the Doctor two weeks from when Clara sent her message for him to show up. He could have spent weeks or months (from his perspective) looking. Time travel and all that.
If Santa is showing up, Iris Wildthyme should make a cameo as well, just to fuck with people.
The Cyb-Brig was a giant "fuck you" from Moffatt to Nicholas Courtney. He couldn't be bothered with bringing the actor back while he was alive, so that's how he deals with it?
We've spent a full season at Cole Hill School, and not one cameo from William Russell. I can only imagine Moffatt will pull the same kind of bullshit after Russell has passed, as a "tribute" to Ian. These actors are NOT immortal. Give them one last opportunity to shine.
Missy's plan - taking over the world, controlling the dead - was perfectly in line with what the character did in End of Time. I don't think she's even slightly "bananas" ... I think she was playing up to how people thought of her when she was The Master, playing with their expectations, tricking them into doing whatever she wanted.
Clara - In the hands of a better writer, she could have been an interesting character. Instead, she's nothing but a paint-by-numbers plot device. If I was playing the role of Clara, I'd be wanting to leave the series too. I can only imagine how frustrated the actress is, coming onto the series as the Companion, and then being ... Clara. She's not the Impossible Girl. She's the Plot Device With Dialog.
Danny Pink - Anyone could have delivered that speech at the end. It seems like his character was created specifically to give that speech, and then head off into the clouds and blow up. You know who else would have been perfectly fine doing that? Mike Yates or Benton. It would have been ridiculously easy to bring either of them back, kill them off, and give them the "becomes the not-Cyb Cyberman who gives a big speech then blows up" storyline. There would have been a connection with Kate as well. Having Cyb-Yates or Cyb-Benton (again, in the hands of a better writer) could have brought up the Cyb-Brig cameo in a way that doesn't make me want to punch Moffatt in the face.
I'm not sure why some are thinking the Doctor didn't really look for Gallifrey while he was there. The only timeframe we're given is that it took the Doctor two weeks from when Clara sent her message for him to show up. He could have spent weeks or months (from his perspective) looking. Time travel and all that.
If Santa is showing up, Iris Wildthyme should make a cameo as well, just to fuck with people.
Doctorwhovian
Fleet Captain
On the other hand though,Was the Peter Pratt/Geoffrey Beevers Master an insult to Roger Delgado? Not the recasting but the 'corpse' state of the Master when played by those actors, considering that Delgado died a few years earlier.
As for Mike Yates and Benton, I'm pretty sure both actors are still alive. Also Franklin at least has done some recent audio Doctor Who work with Tom Baker as an elderly Yates.
Not sure Courtney would've worked in earlier Nuwho, in Sarah Jane Adventures he was obviously very infirm.
As for Mike Yates and Benton, I'm pretty sure both actors are still alive. Also Franklin at least has done some recent audio Doctor Who work with Tom Baker as an elderly Yates.
Not sure Courtney would've worked in earlier Nuwho, in Sarah Jane Adventures he was obviously very infirm.
Insult or no, the Cyber-brig was just kind of tacky and heavy-handed. Not only that it was just kind of out of left field and didn't really fit the episode.
I'd have preferred it if the Doctor had just gotten into the Tardis with Missy and gone off in the end to look for Gallifrey.
