Rate 8x12: Death In Heaven
- Thread starter Lonemagpie
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Yeah, the Brig just felt tacked on and squeezed in....oh wait, you're talking about Ian.
After last Saturday I doubt it.
I am not sure when it became the common notion that Time Lords needed TARDISes (sic) to travel. In "The Terror of the Autons", we saw a Time Lord traveled to Earth without a ship. In "Planet of the Spiders", K'anpo, a mentor for the Doctor on Gallifrey, traveled to Earth without a ship. It's possible that the Master (Mistress) traveled to Earth, and, if Gallifreyan technology can transport a person, I think it is possible it can transport equipment. (The Gallifreyans seemed more powerful as a species in the Classic Doctor Who, then they do in the new Doctor Who. And, seeing that there other Time Lords who didn't agree with the discipline of the establishment, left Gallifrey, I am surprised that the Doctor was the only Gallifreyan alive in the universe.)
I found it jarring when the Master escaped the gurney and captured Osgood. I don't know how the Master did that, as she didn't teleport herself, and I don't know how the Master could come away unscathed after blasting Osgood with a weapon that has the power to dissolve a human. The guards seemed stupidier than normal - they didn't react to what was happening.
I found it jarring when the Master escaped the gurney and captured Osgood. I don't know how the Master did that, as she didn't teleport herself, and I don't know how the Master could come away unscathed after blasting Osgood with a weapon that has the power to dissolve a human. The guards seemed stupidier than normal - they didn't react to what was happening.
Maybe we'll get Ian in the Christmas special. Its just the sort of sentimental thing that would go down well for the holiday.
I don't know. I'll take the framing sequence on "The Crusade" VHS, where we see an aged Ian reminiscing about his adventures with the Doctor, over a third-hand throwaway line any day of the week.
Put me in the camp that is not happy with the Brig's appearance as a Cyberman.
Honestly, as I was first watching it on the screen, I enjoyed it for a short time as a nod to the character and the history of the show. As time passed, though, I feel that using the Brig this way is not as much a respectful tribute, as a selfish way of the current show doing some ghoulish 'namedropping'. Disturbing the Brigadier's well deserved rest and peace after a long life of service and dedication to drag him out of the ground and potentially convert him into a killing machine is just wrong, I feel. While many of us longtime fans love Courtney's character, I see no logical reason why reanimating his corpse would have resulted in a 'good' Cyberman, who would seek out and save his daughter. It goes against what we understand about the conversion process and would have also, IMO, resulted in a huge number of people resurrected a s Cybermen being 'good', or at least confused and rebelling against their new programming.
As others have said, why didn't he behave like the other Cybermen, fly off into the cloud and detonate himself? And if not..... is he now flying around in pain, in horror and trauma at his physical and emotional state (even if he chooses to remain activated as a force for good?). I don't like this open-ended fate for this character.
The whole idea of corpses becoming Cybermen was -for me- a terrible idea. To some extent, this is a show for kids to enjoy. True, death and other bad things happen to people (guest stars and the masses of un-named 'extras') in this show, but these are not people that kids have any connection to. In this episode, however, they get to ponder the idea of their Granny who passed away three months ago (after a devastating battle with lung cancer for two years) crawling out of her grave as a Cyberwoman. For me, this plot line crossed over into a strange zone of inappropriateness. Creepy, but not in a fun creepy way.
Cyberpollen raining down into the ground and being able to work with some boney remains from 200 years ago to create a functioning, metal encased Cyberman? For that stretch of the imagination, why not go just a little further by adding some sort of basic human DNA component to the Cyberpollen and make things easier by just cyberpollinating fields of carrots and other root vegetables around the world to make Cybermen?
Watching this program is often a wiggly walk between viewing it as something trying to be a science fiction program with good internal logic & storytelling and viewing it as a fun show for kids. For me, these two episodes did not do so well in either category.
Tired of Clara/Doctor/Danny triangle and glad that it is close to being over.
I liked Danny and I liked the way he did stand up to the Doctor, as Twelve is behaving as if he needs it. Doctor 12 being a little aloof and cranky is OK, but acting like a snotty, name-calling, jealous boyfriend is very tiring for me. Maybe Danny will be rescued in the Christmas episode, as he is clearly in existence 'somewhere else'.
Hope Ian is in the Christmas Special. For me, his appearance does not need to be a critical cog in the story telling, and a loving & glorified cameo would not at all be a disservice to his character or a distraction/derailment of the plot. Get him in there while we still have Mr. Russell with us.
I believe that the line about Ian & Barbara not having aged was offered by Sarah Jane as repeating hearsay/rumor. I took it that way. Maybe they each kept active & healthy long into old age. Good diets? Good genetics? A nice little side effect of pumped up health from travel in the TARDIS?
I hope Santa's appearance was in this episode remains a vague, dreamy catalyst meant to get the Doctor on into the next episode. I don't care to see him in the Christmas Special.
Honestly, as I was first watching it on the screen, I enjoyed it for a short time as a nod to the character and the history of the show. As time passed, though, I feel that using the Brig this way is not as much a respectful tribute, as a selfish way of the current show doing some ghoulish 'namedropping'. Disturbing the Brigadier's well deserved rest and peace after a long life of service and dedication to drag him out of the ground and potentially convert him into a killing machine is just wrong, I feel. While many of us longtime fans love Courtney's character, I see no logical reason why reanimating his corpse would have resulted in a 'good' Cyberman, who would seek out and save his daughter. It goes against what we understand about the conversion process and would have also, IMO, resulted in a huge number of people resurrected a s Cybermen being 'good', or at least confused and rebelling against their new programming.
As others have said, why didn't he behave like the other Cybermen, fly off into the cloud and detonate himself? And if not..... is he now flying around in pain, in horror and trauma at his physical and emotional state (even if he chooses to remain activated as a force for good?). I don't like this open-ended fate for this character.
The whole idea of corpses becoming Cybermen was -for me- a terrible idea. To some extent, this is a show for kids to enjoy. True, death and other bad things happen to people (guest stars and the masses of un-named 'extras') in this show, but these are not people that kids have any connection to. In this episode, however, they get to ponder the idea of their Granny who passed away three months ago (after a devastating battle with lung cancer for two years) crawling out of her grave as a Cyberwoman. For me, this plot line crossed over into a strange zone of inappropriateness. Creepy, but not in a fun creepy way.
Cyberpollen raining down into the ground and being able to work with some boney remains from 200 years ago to create a functioning, metal encased Cyberman? For that stretch of the imagination, why not go just a little further by adding some sort of basic human DNA component to the Cyberpollen and make things easier by just cyberpollinating fields of carrots and other root vegetables around the world to make Cybermen?
Watching this program is often a wiggly walk between viewing it as something trying to be a science fiction program with good internal logic & storytelling and viewing it as a fun show for kids. For me, these two episodes did not do so well in either category.
Tired of Clara/Doctor/Danny triangle and glad that it is close to being over.
I liked Danny and I liked the way he did stand up to the Doctor, as Twelve is behaving as if he needs it. Doctor 12 being a little aloof and cranky is OK, but acting like a snotty, name-calling, jealous boyfriend is very tiring for me. Maybe Danny will be rescued in the Christmas episode, as he is clearly in existence 'somewhere else'.
Hope Ian is in the Christmas Special. For me, his appearance does not need to be a critical cog in the story telling, and a loving & glorified cameo would not at all be a disservice to his character or a distraction/derailment of the plot. Get him in there while we still have Mr. Russell with us.
I believe that the line about Ian & Barbara not having aged was offered by Sarah Jane as repeating hearsay/rumor. I took it that way. Maybe they each kept active & healthy long into old age. Good diets? Good genetics? A nice little side effect of pumped up health from travel in the TARDIS?
I hope Santa's appearance was in this episode remains a vague, dreamy catalyst meant to get the Doctor on into the next episode. I don't care to see him in the Christmas Special.
Remember that Santa is a real person in Doctor Who. The Doctor has called him Jeff.
As for the Cyberpollen, remember there is one added factor to all things...Timelord technology. It is entirely possible that the pollen is bigger on the inside and carrying around the metal suit. It needs a viable human corpse to fit the suit over and then download someone into it to make it work. The troubles with the system are likely due to Missy being the one doing all the messing around with the technolgy. The Clockwork droid would have been picked up becaus he has replaced about all his parts with human parts. He's started to become human. The Cybermen were clearly not functional within the standard Cyberman systems, but setup to be commanded by Missy. But only after the human gave in to her. Danny, didn't give in completely due to Clara (she soniced him). And if there would be one person that would never give in, but use what he's been given to his advantage tactically, it would be the Brigadier. He's seen just about everything the universe can send at Earth. He's even punched the Master before.
If anyone would accept his lot and use it to his advantage to defend Earth, it would be Allistar Gordon Lethbridge Stewart. If we see that Cyberman again, I half expect it to have painted on rank and unit patches, and possibly a kilt.
As for the Cyberpollen, remember there is one added factor to all things...Timelord technology. It is entirely possible that the pollen is bigger on the inside and carrying around the metal suit. It needs a viable human corpse to fit the suit over and then download someone into it to make it work. The troubles with the system are likely due to Missy being the one doing all the messing around with the technolgy. The Clockwork droid would have been picked up becaus he has replaced about all his parts with human parts. He's started to become human. The Cybermen were clearly not functional within the standard Cyberman systems, but setup to be commanded by Missy. But only after the human gave in to her. Danny, didn't give in completely due to Clara (she soniced him). And if there would be one person that would never give in, but use what he's been given to his advantage tactically, it would be the Brigadier. He's seen just about everything the universe can send at Earth. He's even punched the Master before.
If anyone would accept his lot and use it to his advantage to defend Earth, it would be Allistar Gordon Lethbridge Stewart. If we see that Cyberman again, I half expect it to have painted on rank and unit patches, and possibly a kilt.
According to "The Death of the Doctor" (TSJA),
If Ian appears in a future episode, it might be a retroactive continuity. (I like that both of those characters became married. I thought they had great chemistry.)
If Ian appears in a future episode, it might be a retroactive continuity. (I like that both of those characters became married. I thought they had great chemistry.)
Unlike Star Trek and Star Wars, there appears to be no defined boundary between what is canon and what is apocryphal. I suppose it's up to the fan to mark that boundary. For me, it's what I am willing to buy and what is available. Many of the books and audiobooks and comics are simply not available for me to purchase and to listen to or read.
I think I am more critical of the new Doctor Who because it fails in areas that the Classic Doctor Who excelled. For instance, the emphasis was on creating believable characters, when the production team couldn't rely on the set art direction or the vfx to carry the series.
For me, after watching the episodes of the Classic Doctor Who (1963 to 1974), I am astonished how backwards Doctor Who has become in its depiction of women. Many female companions in the original I consider strong characters are: Barbara Wright, Zoe Herriot, Elizabeth Shaw, Jo Grant, and Sarah Jane Smith. Of these, Jo Grant matured the most. When she fell in love with Clifford Jones, I thought it was believable and that there was chemistry between the two. Like many people, her first love and only love was someone like her father, this being the Doctor who had become a father-figure to her. Jones was a leader in his community (the Nut Hatch) and fought for environmental causes.
Clara Oswald is a terrible female character, and feels to me like the creation of a male mind who doesn't understand females. She is a lying, manipulative woman who uses one man for cuddles and sweet words, and who uses another man for adventure. The kindest word I can describe her starts with a b and rhymes with witch. And her love interest, Danny Pink, like many other male characters in the new Doctor Who is depicted as an immature, needy man who has a hugh inferiority complex. This man became a non-commissioned officer in the British Army, yet hates officers, especially those of general rank who were from the aristocracy. Besides the fact that his life path is unrealistic (he couldn't have been promoted sergeant in five years) and complete education for being a teacher, this character is written as a weak competitor to the Doctor. When did ever the Doctor need a competitor for the attentions of a woman? He is a much older being, whose days go by quickly (do you remember how time seemed to crawl when you were a child and how now as an adult time is running at a faster pace, now imagine a being who has lived for thousands of years), who has a different biochemistry to humans, who views humans as an inferior species that he has come to care for, who has called Earth home since the Third Doctor at least, etc. His character should be far removed from the emotional immaturity of humans. He should be in the position of an observer, who assists when called upon. It's easier for me as a viewer to accept him as a father figure, as a best friend, as a teacher, as a student (for he learns from his companions as much as they learn from him).
I could care less if the Brigader was made into a Cyberman. The issues with the script go far deeper than a misguided attempt to honor an older character. The script has issues in pacing, in characterization, in world building, and in tone.
I think I am more critical of the new Doctor Who because it fails in areas that the Classic Doctor Who excelled. For instance, the emphasis was on creating believable characters, when the production team couldn't rely on the set art direction or the vfx to carry the series.
For me, after watching the episodes of the Classic Doctor Who (1963 to 1974), I am astonished how backwards Doctor Who has become in its depiction of women. Many female companions in the original I consider strong characters are: Barbara Wright, Zoe Herriot, Elizabeth Shaw, Jo Grant, and Sarah Jane Smith. Of these, Jo Grant matured the most. When she fell in love with Clifford Jones, I thought it was believable and that there was chemistry between the two. Like many people, her first love and only love was someone like her father, this being the Doctor who had become a father-figure to her. Jones was a leader in his community (the Nut Hatch) and fought for environmental causes.
Clara Oswald is a terrible female character, and feels to me like the creation of a male mind who doesn't understand females. She is a lying, manipulative woman who uses one man for cuddles and sweet words, and who uses another man for adventure. The kindest word I can describe her starts with a b and rhymes with witch. And her love interest, Danny Pink, like many other male characters in the new Doctor Who is depicted as an immature, needy man who has a hugh inferiority complex. This man became a non-commissioned officer in the British Army, yet hates officers, especially those of general rank who were from the aristocracy. Besides the fact that his life path is unrealistic (he couldn't have been promoted sergeant in five years) and complete education for being a teacher, this character is written as a weak competitor to the Doctor. When did ever the Doctor need a competitor for the attentions of a woman? He is a much older being, whose days go by quickly (do you remember how time seemed to crawl when you were a child and how now as an adult time is running at a faster pace, now imagine a being who has lived for thousands of years), who has a different biochemistry to humans, who views humans as an inferior species that he has come to care for, who has called Earth home since the Third Doctor at least, etc. His character should be far removed from the emotional immaturity of humans. He should be in the position of an observer, who assists when called upon. It's easier for me as a viewer to accept him as a father figure, as a best friend, as a teacher, as a student (for he learns from his companions as much as they learn from him).
I could care less if the Brigader was made into a Cyberman. The issues with the script go far deeper than a misguided attempt to honor an older character. The script has issues in pacing, in characterization, in world building, and in tone.
Doctorwhovian
Fleet Captain
Both the Brig and Ian have appeared in DWM's comic strip with the Nuwho Doctors. So that's as close as I think we're going to get.
Courtney missed the sixth and eighth Doctors, although this was mainly due to the plans for those Doctors being cut short (Courtney would've probably shown up in the original season 23 where he'd face the Ainley Master again). It's been made up for in Audio though.
Ian was actually supposed to appear in 1983's Mawdryn Undead, but was unavailable or ill, and the role was rewrote for Courtney. Hence the Brig's career change in that
Interestingly the series has not acknowledged Elisabeth Sladen's (Sarah Jane Smith) passing at all, apart from the cancellation of SJA.
Courtney missed the sixth and eighth Doctors, although this was mainly due to the plans for those Doctors being cut short (Courtney would've probably shown up in the original season 23 where he'd face the Ainley Master again). It's been made up for in Audio though.
Ian was actually supposed to appear in 1983's Mawdryn Undead, but was unavailable or ill, and the role was rewrote for Courtney. Hence the Brig's career change in that
Interestingly the series has not acknowledged Elisabeth Sladen's (Sarah Jane Smith) passing at all, apart from the cancellation of SJA.
How could the Doctor travel back to the original co-ordinates of Gallifrey? Isn't the entire constellation of Kasterborus time locked?
Or was it implied that Gallifrey itself was moved out of orbit to another location during the Time War?
Or was it implied that Gallifrey itself was moved out of orbit to another location during the Time War?
Wouldn't the Doctor freezing Gallifrey in a pocket dimension nullify the time lock?
The Time War is time locked. (or at least it is suppose to be Time Locked) The Doctor went to the location of Gallifrey after the Time War and found nothing. In theory one could go to Gallifrey before and after the Time War. As seen, when Clara took the TARDIS to Gallifrey some 2 or 3 thousand years ago. Well along the Doctor's timeline anyway. No telling when anything happens on Gallifrey in relation to time on Earth.
I seem to recall that Jack Harkness recalled the Daleks from his past but that they had disapeared at some point, to which the Doctor says they went to fight the Time War with the Timelords. So the Time War could be in Earth's future rather than the long past. But the nature of the Time War could have it be in many times at once.
We know that at least one human knew of the Time War and that the Timelords and Daleks were burning half the Universe. Enough that she refused rescue by the 8th Doctor over Karn because she'd rather die and maybe take a Timelord with her than live in the Time War.
It be funny if Gallifrey was in the same location, but in E-Space.
I seem to recall that Jack Harkness recalled the Daleks from his past but that they had disapeared at some point, to which the Doctor says they went to fight the Time War with the Timelords. So the Time War could be in Earth's future rather than the long past. But the nature of the Time War could have it be in many times at once.
We know that at least one human knew of the Time War and that the Timelords and Daleks were burning half the Universe. Enough that she refused rescue by the 8th Doctor over Karn because she'd rather die and maybe take a Timelord with her than live in the Time War.
It be funny if Gallifrey was in the same location, but in E-Space.
I for one have no problem ignoring a line in SJA if it means William Russell returning to the show. But even if one were inclined to adhere to that there are ways around it.
Moffat said he won't kill off Sarah Jane, that as far as he's concerned she's still having adventures, they just aren't televised anymore.
Gallifrey would
The Master (Mistress) said that her release was collateral damage from the thirteen Doctors saving their home world. She said that it was there and that it wasn't there. I don't know why the Doctor expected to find anything other than empty space, as he has done nothing to bring Gallifrey back to N-Space. He has been busy traveling with Clara in the three Earth years since Gallifrey was saved.
("The Day of the Doctor")
The Master (Mistress) said that her release was collateral damage from the thirteen Doctors saving their home world. She said that it was there and that it wasn't there. I don't know why the Doctor expected to find anything other than empty space, as he has done nothing to bring Gallifrey back to N-Space. He has been busy traveling with Clara in the three Earth years since Gallifrey was saved.
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