Rank of Commodore?

[C.E. Evans]

Ah, but now we're getting into the governmental structure of the Federation, something else that's not very well defined on screen.

Well, we know that the office of the Federation President is in Paris and the Federation Council chambers are in San Francisco along with Starfleet Headquarters. Presumably, the Federation President would have some sort of staff or cabinet of his own to help him run the nation like most heads of state do, especially if that nation consists of more than a hundred different worlds...

True. But we've never actually seen how all these things fit together. Is the govenment a federal republic, a la the United States, or is it more of a parlimentary based system?

I would gather the Federation being both, but perhaps closer more to being a federal republic in the sense of the Federation President likely being the executive branch and the Federation Council being a Congress-like legislative branch, with Council members acting as the representatives/senators of individual worlds (I would gather that Ambassador Sarek represented Vulcan on the Council at one point).

Does the President have something like a Secretary of Defense, who runs the political aspects of Starfleet and has the Starfleet Chief of Staff answer to him? Does the Chief of Staff answer directly to the President? Is there something like the Joint Chiefs of Staff in the UFP, one for Starfleet and others for other service areas (like ground forces)?

Probably yes to all of the above.

There has been frequent mentions of numerous agencies within the Federation--like the Federation Archaeology Council, Federation Astronomical Committee, and the Federation Department of Temporal Investigations--but I doubt you'll ever find a satisfactory (i.e., official) answer to how it all works since it really has never been the focus of any episode or film, but used mainly as things briefly mentioned in passing to add some dimension to the Federation...

 

[C.E. Evans]

Even Kirk's original admiral's stripes don't exactly fit in with the original TOS scheme.

How not? That "scheme" featured just two examples originally: the single wide braid of the various Commodores, and the same wide plus a single narrow above and a single narrow below for Admiral Fitzpatrick. Kirk fits just fine between those two - him holding the lowest possible Admiral rank (and the second-lowest flag rank if Commodores hold the lowest) fits very well plotwise, too.

In your opinion maybe, but definitely not mine. No way.

So what if Kirk's broad braid consisted of three narrow ones stitched together, rather than a single bit of shiny wavy cloth?

To me, that's more than enough to signify that three stripes now represent commodore in TMP. You may disagree, but I'm not asking for consensus though.

His shirt wasn't velour any more, either...

Easy now...

 

[J.T.B.]

Strictly speaking, the rank title of both one-star and two-star officers in the United States Navy (and related services) is "Rear Admiral". "Lower half" (sometimes "upper half", too) is used to differentiate between the admirals on the lower and upper halves of the list of Rear Admirals - those on the lower half of the list are paid less and wear one fewer star - but is not part of the formal title of the rank.

From 1899 to the early 1980s there was no one-star rank in the US Navy, but rear admirals were split into two pay grades, with the "lower half" of the list of rear admirals getting one-star pay and progressing to two-star pay automatically by seniority. They were all simpy "rear admirals," though, wearing the same insignia and flying the same two-star flag. In the early '80s, Congress decided that the navy should have a one-star rank to go with the O-7 pay grade like the other services. They tried "commodore admiral," then good old commodore, before settling on rear admiral (lower half) in '84 or '85. So that is now the formal title for the rank by law (10 USC 741), even though the "half" part no longer makes any sense (the Navy currently shows 120 "lower" and 74 "upper" rear admirals). But in practice, both grades are referred to as "rear admiral" in all but the most official usage.

--Justin

 

[Admiral Shran]

True. But we've never actually seen how all these things fit together. Is the govenment a federal republic, a la the United States, or is it more of a parlimentary based system?

I would gather the Federation being both, but perhaps closer more to being a federal republic in the sense of the Federation President likely being the executive branch and the Federation Council being a Congress-like legislative branch, with Council members acting as the representatives/senators of individual worlds (I would gather that Ambassador Sarek represented Vulcan on the Council at one point).

Is any of this shown in any detail in the book Articles of the Federation? I've never read the book, but would be very interested to if it fleshed out the Federation's government and Starfleet's upper organizational structure.

 

[Timo]

To me, that's more than enough to signify that three stripes now represent commodore in TMP. You may disagree, but I'm not asking for consensus though.

Three stripes stitched together, that is. Which is hardly a change - a Colonel's eagle stays an eagle even if the angle of the wings is changed, or the thing is made of plastic instead of metal.

The color of the braids changed between ENT and TOS, and the texture changed between TOS and TMP. I find it a stretch to say that this amounted to a change in the system itself, when from a distance the ENT, TOS and TMP flag braid still looks the same: a pattern of broad and narrow elements arranged so that the narrow ones alternate above and below (instead of all being above like in today's systems), and so that their number more or less matches today's flag systems, with zero narrow for O-7, one narrow for O-8, two narrow for O-9 and so forth.

To see changes there is more or less the same thing as to see changes to the uniforms themselves. True, their cut and material is altered, but it doesn't alter the system as such. System changes in rank hit us in "The Cage" (unless Pike was a Lieutenant), and system changes in uniforms hit us in TMP where there's this extensive color code scheme. System changes in rank don't really hit us in TMP as regards Kirk's sleeve, although the Ensign/Lt(jg) thing may indicate a change rather than a slip of the tongue.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Joel_Kirk]

Suddenly the thought occurs to me that "The Commodore" would be a great name for a bar.

Make it plural, you also got the name of a music group...

 

[Nerys Myk]

Suddenly the thought occurs to me that "The Commodore" would be a great name for a bar.

Make it plural, you also got the name of a music group...

Nah, that would never work.

 

[plynch]

Maybe -- what with the controversies about never seeing a bathroom on a starship -- a good name for a "Trek" band (a la those shown in Trekkies II) would be Rank Commode-Door.

 

[J.T.B.]

To me, that's more than enough to signify that three stripes now represent commodore in TMP. You may disagree, but I'm not asking for consensus though.

Three stripes stitched together, that is. Which is hardly a change - a Colonel's eagle stays an eagle even if the angle of the wings is changed, or the thing is made of plastic instead of metal.

I agree, the only good reason I can think of for laying on the three stripes so tightly together is that they are meant to be taken as something different from three single stripes. If three regularly-spaced stripes represent the ill-defined grade of fleet captain (which many think they do, but not all) it would seem a little odd that three spaced stripes would mean one thing while the same three stripes grouped together would mean something senior. However, as Timo points out, from a moderate distance the three stripes together looks like a single broad brand, and I have no problem with the idea that it is the TMP equivalent of TOS's broad "gold foil" band.

System changes in rank don't really hit us in TMP as regards Kirk's sleeve, although the Ensign/Lt(jg) thing may indicate a change rather than a slip of the tongue.

If it was a slip of the tongue, it affected Adm. Kirk as well: He calls the officer who welcomes him aboard "ensign," and the officer is also wearing a single broken stripe. It seems strange to me that Starfleet would abolish an established rank for a few years and then bring it back, but that does fit the evidence.

--Justin

 

[C.E. Evans]

To me, that's more than enough to signify that three stripes now represent commodore in TMP. You may disagree, but I'm not asking for consensus though.

Three stripes stitched together, that is.

I still think three stripes represent represent commodore and three stripes closer together and either a solid or broken stripe represents an admiral grade of some kind.

To see changes there is more or less the same thing as to see changes to the uniforms themselves. True, their cut and material is altered, but it doesn't alter the system as such. System changes in rank hit us in "The Cage" (unless Pike was a Lieutenant), and system changes in uniforms hit us in TMP where there's this extensive color code scheme. System changes in rank don't really hit us in TMP as regards Kirk's sleeve...

Naturally, I disagree. I think most line officer grades stayed the same, but there were otherwise a number of changes to rank insignia with the TMP uniforms, especially in regards to ensigns and officers above the rank of captain. Enlisted insignia was also added with those uniforms, which the TOS uniforms lacked (there was also no distinction between ensigns and buck crewmen with those earlier uniforms as well).

...although the Ensign/Lt(jg) thing may indicate a change rather than a slip of the tongue.

I don't believe it was ever a slip of the tongue. As I said before, they did make changes to the ensign insignia and eliminated the lieutenant j.g. rank as told in The Making of Star Trek: The Motion Picture. Uhura's onscreen reference to that junior bridge officer as an ensign corresponds with that, which is good enough for me that there were a number of modifications in rank insignia in TMP.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Sorry in advance for the double-post, but I saw this just now...

True. But we've never actually seen how all these things fit together. Is the govenment a federal republic, a la the United States, or is it more of a parlimentary based system?

I would gather the Federation being both, but perhaps closer more to being a federal republic in the sense of the Federation President likely being the executive branch and the Federation Council being a Congress-like legislative branch, with Council members acting as the representatives/senators of individual worlds (I would gather that Ambassador Sarek represented Vulcan on the Council at one point).

Is any of this shown in any detail in the book Articles of the Federation? I've never read the book, but would be very interested to if it fleshed out the Federation's government and Starfleet's upper organizational structure.

I never read Articles of the Federation either, but its title would suggest a bit more detail (or at least speculation) about the Federation's inner workings, wouldn't it? Someone who has read the book, though, might be able to shed more light on it...

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Suddenly the thought occurs to me that "The Commodore" would be a great name for a bar.

Make it plural, you also got the name of a music group...

Nah, that would never work.

The bar would definitely have to be located in a brick hoooooooooooouuuuuuuuse.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Make it plural, you also got the name of a music group...

Nah, that would never work.

The bar would definitely have to be located in a brick hoooooooooooouuuuuuuuse.

Come in on the nightshift