Rank of Commodore?

[C.E. Evans]

I like to think there's a Commander-in-Chief (a five-pip fleet admiral), followed by a staff of four-pip admirals that are members from his/her general staff that oversee fleet-wide operations and deployments.

Below them I would think are the three-pip vice admirals, who command tactical fleets, theatres of operation, and major departmental divisions.

Two-pip rear admirals may preside over specific operations and smaller divisions in Starfleet (the commandant of Starfleet Academy could be a rear admiral).

That's how I like to think the Starfleet Admiralty works...

 

[Admiral Shran]

^ That sounds reasonable and easy to understand.

However, we know that there's a position of "Starfleet Chief of Staff." Would that just be another title for the five piped "Commander-in-Chief"?

Also, in that system, what would be the one-star Admirals'/Commodores' responsiblities?

 

[C.E. Evans]

^ That sounds reasonable and easy to understand.

However, we know that there's a position of "Starfleet Chief of Staff." Would that just be another title for the five piped "Commander-in-Chief"?

It could be, but it could also be another five-pip fleet admiral that serves on the Federation President's senior staff as his Starfleet liaison (that would enable the Commander-in-Chief to concentrate more on running the fleet instead of constantly reporting to the Federation President or the Federation Council).

Also, in that system, what would be the one-star Admirals'/Commodores' responsiblities?

Command of large facilities, special projects, and sometimes a special small taskforce of ships.

 

[clint g]

^ Ah, so you're saying that she was promoted into a specific position and that her rank came with that position.

That makes sense. We've seen it happen before. Kirk was promoted to Chief of Starfleet Operations not too long after he was a Captain, after all.

Yeah, Kirk is a good example. I tend to think most promotions beyond the rank of captain in Starfleet are by special appointment--rather than something that naturally happens if you stay in the service long enough--and may not always require someone to start off as a one-pip admiral and work their way up. Depending on the size or importance of the posting, you could skip a few grades, IMO.

It's actually due to shoddy writing and not knowing what the rank system is more than some special system

The problem with Star Trek is that they treat promotions as rewards rather than basing them around experience. An Admiral receives their rank because they have experience leading X amount of people. Same with any other rank.

 

[C.E. Evans]

^ Ah, so you're saying that she was promoted into a specific position and that her rank came with that position.

That makes sense. We've seen it happen before. Kirk was promoted to Chief of Starfleet Operations not too long after he was a Captain, after all.

Yeah, Kirk is a good example. I tend to think most promotions beyond the rank of captain in Starfleet are by special appointment--rather than something that naturally happens if you stay in the service long enough--and may not always require someone to start off as a one-pip admiral and work their way up. Depending on the size or importance of the posting, you could skip a few grades, IMO.

It's actually due to shoddy writing and not knowing what the rank system is more than some special system

The problem with Star Trek is that they treat promotions as rewards rather than basing them around experience. An Admiral receives their rank because they have experience leading X amount of people. Same with any other rank.

But you also have to take into account that Starfleet is not a true extension of today's navies and really doesn't have to do everything the same way-especially after 300 or 400 years. If anything, the real distinction between Starfleet and today's navies is how different it's chain of command and promotion policies are compared to the way things are today.

 

[clever_username]

the navy still uses the title of commodore for its DESRON commanding officers, but they're usually full birds, not one stars. probably more of a ceremonial title. maybe i should've asked old pumpkin head about that (one of the commodores i served under)

 

[Chaos Descending]

^^^ Yes, Commodore is (basically) a ceremonial title, but it's still an official title. It's held by officers with the actual rank of Captain, but the position itself is called Commodore.

 

[Timo]

On the issue of Gregory Quinn, mentioned in the passing, it's interesting that he was addressed as "Admiral". This despite him wearing zero pips, against the one or two pips that his seniors wore on their identical uniforms in "Conspiracy". If his was the lowest flag rank (and it's difficult to think of anything lower than zero pips!), his form of address in the old USN or RN would have been "Commodore", not "Admiral". Since Starfleet of the 2360s seems to call the lowest flag rank "Admiral", we can only deduce that a) Commodore no longer exists, b) Commodore exists but no longer is a flag rank, and some other sort of flag rank addressable as "Admiral" (perhaps this Butt Admiral, Nether Half thing of today) has taken the lowest position, or c) Commodore exists but every flag officer from Commodore to Grand Admiral or whatnot is addressed as "Admiral".

...That doesn't narrow down the options a lot after all.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[T'Girl]

it's interesting that he was addressed as "Admiral". This despite him wearing zero pips, against the one or two pips that his seniors wore on their identical uniforms

While not the way we do it now, perhaps just as the lowest ranking non-flag officers (ensign) wears no rank pip, the lowest ranking flag officer also wears no pip. They are identified as Admirals by their uniform. Kind of a way for the other (senior) Admirals to put them in their place.

Around the Admiralty on Earth, Gregory Quinn could have been referred to as "Old no pips" right before he got the other (senior) Admirals their coffee.

 

[J.T.B.]

But you also have to take into account that Starfleet is not a true extension of today's navies and really doesn't have to do everything the same way-especially after 300 or 400 years. If anything, the real distinction between Starfleet and today's navies is how different it's chain of command and promotion policies are compared to the way things are today.

But unless they travel forward in time to see how every officer does in higher command, the best way to get the best commanders is to give them a position of responsibility, see how they do, promote the best, give them more responsibility, see how they do and so on. Given the nature of Starfleet we've seen, which seems to have a fairly traditional military pyramid, I think it's realistic that they would have a promotion system pretty similar to what we have today.

However, we know that there's a position of "Starfleet Chief of Staff." Would that just be another title for the five piped "Commander-in-Chief"?

The trend since WW2 has been to divide the top levels of command into what we might call, for lack of better terms, "administrative" and "operational." The US Joint Chiefs of Staff, though the top officers of their services, are not in the chain of command for operational units "in the field." They are in charge of the big picture, long-term planning and policy to keep their services ready to do what is required. The top operational commanders are the Unified Combatant Commanders, who command forces of all the services in their areas. They used to be CinC's as Timo mentioned, until George W. Bush decided that title would be for himself only.

I tend to think that the Starfleet Chief of Staff is like the CNO, top officer of the service and top adviser to the president, but not directly in charge of the operating fleet(s). That would be where the CinCs come in.

Also, in that system, what would be the one-star Admirals'/Commodores' responsiblities?

Probably a broad spectrum, from command of major bases and small squadrons to all sorts of staff jobs.

the navy still uses the title of commodore for its DESRON commanding officers, but they're usually full birds, not one stars. probably more of a ceremonial title. maybe i should've asked old pumpkin head about that (one of the commodores i served under)

There are a number of O-6 billets (COMDESRON, COMSUBRON, COMPHIBRON &c) that entitle the holder to a flag called a "broad command pennant" the same way a flag officer has a personal rank flag. The title of commodore goes with the pennant.


--Justin

 

[C.E. Evans]

But you also have to take into account that Starfleet is not a true extension of today's navies and really doesn't have to do everything the same way-especially after 300 or 400 years. If anything, the real distinction between Starfleet and today's navies is how different it's chain of command and promotion policies are compared to the way things are today.

But unless they travel forward in time to see how every officer does in higher command, the best way to get the best commanders is to give them a position of responsibility, see how they do, promote the best, give them more responsibility, see how they do and so on. Given the nature of Starfleet we've seen, which seems to have a fairly traditional military pyramid, I think it's realistic that they would have a promotion system pretty similar to what we have today.

That could be found in any organization, including most civilian jobs and businesses.

 

[doubleohfive]

Suddenly the thought occurs to me that "The Commodore" would be a great name for a bar.

 

[Admiral Shran]

^ That sounds reasonable and easy to understand.

However, we know that there's a position of "Starfleet Chief of Staff." Would that just be another title for the five piped "Commander-in-Chief"?

It could be, but it could also be another five-pip fleet admiral that serves on the Federation President's senior staff as his Starfleet liaison (that would enable the Commander-in-Chief to concentrate more on running the fleet instead of constantly reporting to the Federation President or the Federation Council).

Ah, but now we're getting into the governmental structure of the Federation, something else that's not very well defined on screen.

 

[Cicero]

The real-world use of Commodore as either a rank or a title has a long and intricate history. And Rear Admiral (Lower Half) has been in use in the U.S. Navy since 1899.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_(United_States)

Bad enough to be a rear admiral, but the lower half of one?

Strictly speaking, the rank title of both one-star and two-star officers in the United States Navy (and related services) is "Rear Admiral". "Lower half" (sometimes "upper half", too) is used to differentiate between the admirals on the lower and upper halves of the list of Rear Admirals - those on the lower half of the list are paid less and wear one fewer star - but is not part of the formal title of the rank.

 

[Timo]

While not the way we do it now, perhaps just as the lowest ranking non-flag officers (ensign) wears no rank pip, the lowest ranking flag officer also wears no pip.

Good point! Sounds systematic enough - except that this concept of pipless flag officers only emerges in a period where Ensigns do wear a pip, and this follows a period where Ensigns did wear an arrowhead marker, and this followed a period where Ensigns did wear a single broken braid (in TMP, unless Uhura misspoke when addressing the guy who in reality was a Lt(jg))... However, if Starfleet once found it a good idea to deprive Ensigns of markings, the same logic might have driven them to deprive the lowest Admirals of same at some other timepoint.

It's too bad they introduced the one- and two-pip Admirals in "Conspiracy", since Quinn and others had already sported a triangular, embroidered collar marking that might have indicated their rank. But that was probably way too clumsy to redo so that it could have indicated a series of different ranks...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[C.E. Evans]

^ That sounds reasonable and easy to understand.

However, we know that there's a position of "Starfleet Chief of Staff." Would that just be another title for the five piped "Commander-in-Chief"?

It could be, but it could also be another five-pip fleet admiral that serves on the Federation President's senior staff as his Starfleet liaison (that would enable the Commander-in-Chief to concentrate more on running the fleet instead of constantly reporting to the Federation President or the Federation Council).

Ah, but now we're getting into the governmental structure of the Federation, something else that's not very well defined on screen.

Well, we know that the office of the Federation President is in Paris and the Federation Council chambers are in San Francisco along with Starfleet Headquarters. Presumably, the Federation President would have some sort of staff or cabinet of his own to help him run the nation like most heads of state do, especially if that nation consists of more than a hundred different worlds...

While not the way we do it now, perhaps just as the lowest ranking non-flag officers (ensign) wears no rank pip, the lowest ranking flag officer also wears no pip.

Good point! Sounds systematic enough - except that this concept of pipless flag officers only emerges in a period where Ensigns do wear a pip, and this follows a period where Ensigns did wear an arrowhead marker, and this followed a period where Ensigns did wear a single broken braid (in TMP, unless Uhura misspoke when addressing the guy who in reality was a Lt(jg))...

According to Susan Sackett's The Making of Star Trek: The Motion Picture, the rank of lieutenant junior grade did not exist during TMP, and the single broken stripe did represent ensign. There was a note by one of the film's associate producers calling for a revision of the rank system from TOS.

 

[Timo]

True enough. But from the viewpoint of the Trek universe, it might still be more elegant to think that the rank system underwent no changes between TOS and TMP, and Uhura misspoke.

After all, many of the people coming aboard Starfleet's soon-to-be-launched prestige project might have received promotions recently, so Uhura could plausibly be out of date regarding that Rhaandarite's exact rank. Similarly, Riker addressed Troi as Lieutenant in "Encounter at Farpoint", despite her collar pins - but plausibly so, as this would probably have been the Betazoid's rank when the two last met.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[C.E. Evans]

True enough. But from the viewpoint of the Trek universe, it might still be more elegant to think that the rank system underwent no changes between TOS and TMP, and Uhura misspoke.

After all, many of the people coming aboard Starfleet's soon-to-be-launched prestige project might have received promotions recently, so Uhura could plausibly be out of date regarding that Rhaandarite's exact rank.

I really don't agree with the idea to make Uhura doddering so that the rank system in TMP is exactly the same as it was in TOS. I do think it was plausible (and even likely) that the rank system was modified in TMP when the new uniforms were issued, and Uhura knew exactly what she was talking about. Even Kirk's original admiral's stripes don't exactly fit in with the original TOS scheme.

Similarly, Riker addressed Troi as Lieutenant in "Encounter at Farpoint", despite her collar pins - but plausibly so, as this would probably have been the Betazoid's rank when the two last met.

Historically, a lieutenant commander is more of a senior lieutenant as the term is basically a shortened version of "lieutenant commanding" or "lieutenant in command." Traditionally, such an officer is commonly addressed as "commander" these days, but maybe not always in Starfleet, which could also explain the incident between Riker and Troi...

 

[Admiral Shran]

It could be, but it could also be another five-pip fleet admiral that serves on the Federation President's senior staff as his Starfleet liaison (that would enable the Commander-in-Chief to concentrate more on running the fleet instead of constantly reporting to the Federation President or the Federation Council).

Ah, but now we're getting into the governmental structure of the Federation, something else that's not very well defined on screen.

Well, we know that the office of the Federation President is in Paris and the Federation Council chambers are in San Francisco along with Starfleet Headquarters. Presumably, the Federation President would have some sort of staff or cabinet of his own to help him run the nation like most heads of state do, especially if that nation consists of more than a hundred different worlds...

True. But we've never actually seen how all these things fit together. Is the govenment a federal republic, a la the United States, or is it more of a parlimentary based system?

Does the President have something like a Secretary of Defense, who runs the political aspects of Starfleet and has the Starfleet Chief of Staff answer to him? Does the Chief of Staff answer directly to the President? Is there something like the Joint Chiefs of Staff in the UFP, one for Starfleet and others for other service areas (like ground forces)?

 

[Timo]

Even Kirk's original admiral's stripes don't exactly fit in with the original TOS scheme.

How not? That "scheme" featured just two examples originally: the single wide braid of the various Commodores, and the same wide plus a single narrow above and a single narrow below for Admiral Fitzpatrick. Kirk fits just fine between those two - him holding the lowest possible Admiral rank (and the second-lowest flag rank if Commodores hold the lowest) fits very well plotwise, too.

So what if Kirk's broad braid consisted of three narrow ones stitched together, rather than a single bit of shiny wavy cloth? His shirt wasn't velour any more, either...

FWIW, ENT flag ranks seem to nicely support this idea of wide braid flanked by narrow braid from both sides alternately. STXI also helps establish that the rank braid has stayed unchanged for decades upon decades. Minor changes may be realistic, but not particularly attractive because fiction tends to streamline things more than that.

Timo Saloniemi