1. Spock's Barber

    Spock's Barber Commodore Commodore

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    Didn’t Justman just get tired of dealing with the slow writing process of Harlan Ellison, at a time when production needed shootable scripts?
     
  2. Marsden

    Marsden Commodore Commodore

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    I liked a lot in the episode, Spock's strange attitude was the only thing I really didn't like. But he did strike the occipital bone of his head on the chair arm, maybe he wasn't himself?

    Scotty was a really stand out, so the editor didn't get Spock but he got Scotty.
     
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  3. Relayer1

    Relayer1 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    You got a problem there Pilgrim ?
     
  4. Spock's Barber

    Spock's Barber Commodore Commodore

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    Go get ‘me, Duke.

     
  5. UnknownSample

    UnknownSample Commodore Commodore

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    People who entered Trek through the movies may not be ready for 3 dimensional Spock from the series who, in different circumstances, will be pedantic, exasperating, occasionally but rarely actually empathetic, respectful, dismissive, authoritarian, anti-authoritarian, etc etc.... That Which Survives was classic, totally in-character Spock in fussy, hyper-practical command mode. Out of command mode, he defers to Kirk and Kirk sets the tone.
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    I know people ache to see warm and fuzzy movie Spock, but I don't. As Nimoy said, Spock's brains were a bit scrambled after reconstituting, and the wasn't all there... he had little presence of any kind.
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    All-business Spock isn't a diplomat. He's trying to save their lives. He's also clueless regarding humans. He's learning, but is still Vulcan.
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    The crew are big boys and girls. They can deal with a little brusqueness and rudeness. This is no great tragedy for them. He's not warm and fuzzy.
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    Sean Connery's wig was definitely not real. The continuity of M's cheese enchiladas has been violated many times over Bond's 60 year history.
     
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  6. Maurice

    Maurice Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    I'll have to go through the memos for the exact quotes, but if my recollections are correct he had issues with cost and didn't think they script would be usable.
     
  7. mb22

    mb22 Captain Captain

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  8. Talos IV

    Talos IV Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    Continuing my backwards-order re-watch of TOS, "And The Children Shall Lead" was up today. Not many worse ways to start a week than by sitting through that one.

    All the venom we continue to spew toward the episode is absolutely justified. Just dreadful. And whereas "Spock's Brain" is at least entertaining and "The Way to Eden" has moments of fun kitsch, "And The Children Shall Lead" is downright unpleasant to watch. Every. Second. Of. It.
     
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  9. Maurice

    Maurice Vice Admiral Premium Member

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  10. FormerLurker

    FormerLurker Commodore Commodore

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    YMMV. Mine does. To my mind, an extra ten seconds of exposition from Kirk and Spock in the cave during Act One, and the whole thing would tie together in a bow.
     
  11. Commishsleer

    Commishsleer Commodore Commodore

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    Yet in other episodes like "Requiem for Methuselah" Spock shows a great understanding of Kirk's feelings. In Triskelon Spock derails the "mutiny". There were many episodes where Spock shows understanding of the crews motivations and there were many that he didn't. But he generally wasn't a pedantic idiot like he was in "That Which Survives". If he was like that in every episode there wouldn't be the great amount of fans Spock has
     
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  12. mb22

    mb22 Captain Captain

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    You're welcome!
     
  13. Marsden

    Marsden Commodore Commodore

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    I agree completely.

    Even in Galileo Seven he seemed confused by emotional responses but not to the point where he seemed like a computer with an illegal input. Spock's reconciliation with Bones in The Tholian Web is another example of while Spock himself wasn't emotional, he understood his crew and officers were and he adjusted and made allowances for them.

    A key to what is wrong with Spock in this episode is not just in Spock's pedantic bickering and his apparent lack of allowance for anyone else, but when did Spock ever answer a question wrong? Uhura says,"What happened?" and he starts mentioning his head!? NO ONE would have thought that's what she meant, why did he? Was this an attempt at komedy or a character assassination of Spock.

    And wouldn't you know, but this episode of Spock as a pedantic twit seems to have been the template for almost every subsequent productions' Vulcans. A great shame that would bother me more if I cared about the subsequent productions.
     
  14. Phaser Two

    Phaser Two Fleet Captain Premium Member

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    Exactly. And remove/tone down the two Shatner freakouts (cave and turbolift) and the incredibly unfortunate hand gestures & sounds from the children. Then you've got an interesting, unsettling, even downright scary episode. I like it nonetheless.

    Oh, and I also would have preferred that Scotty be immune to the mind control. He was almost always immune to everything else (Space Seed, Requiem, Naked Time, Tholian Web). He could have worked with Kirk and Spock to restore control of the ship.
     
  15. FormerLurker

    FormerLurker Commodore Commodore

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    I've always been convinced the hand gestures were meant to look like 'hammering'. As such, a slightly longer pause at the bottom of each strike would be enough to allay the unfortunate interpretation.
     
  16. Phaser Two

    Phaser Two Fleet Captain Premium Member

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    Ah. Yes, and removing the HONK!! HONK!! sound too couldn't have hurt.
     
  17. Talos IV

    Talos IV Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    Leonard Nimoy complained vehemently about his perceived character assassination of Spock during the third season. "Whom Gods Destroy," in particular, caused him a great deal of strife because of the way Spock behaved in the original script. (See various books for how Nimoy held up production on it until the script was rewritten.)

    Agree with everything that's being said here about "That Which Survives." While it was never going to be a classic, it'd sure be a much better episode if Spock was ... well, Spock.
     
  18. UnknownSample

    UnknownSample Commodore Commodore

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    He wasn't worse in That Which Survives. Momentary friction due to the different way he sees things.
     
  19. Commishsleer

    Commishsleer Commodore Commodore

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    He was an idiot for the entire episode correcting everyone from Rahda to Kirk, From the moment the occipital area of his head hit the chair right up until the end when he was lecturing Scott about the need to not say Thank You or whatever he was doing.

    Kirk was also an idiot telling Sulu off for some comment he made. Perhaps he was feeling guilting about an inappropriate landing party configuration.

    Surely Kirk and Spock shouldn't have been losing their heads in Season 3 after all the experience they've had.
     
  20. Lance

    Lance Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I might be missing something, but Casino Royale isn't meant to be a prequel? Imo it was always a soft reboot: introducing a new Bond (for a change) explicitly within the continuity, while retaining the M who worked with Brosnan.

    I mean, none of them are set in the 1950s or 1960s. It isn't meant to literally be a prequel, even though it adapts the original story.