Wow, I would have loved to have seen this debate play out onscreen or in one of the books.
Quick continuity question regarding AotF and Lore
- Thread starter Thrawn
- Start date
I think, to some extent, many are missing the other elephant in the room regarding Lore's 'rehabilitation'...
Turning him off does seem a bit... inhumane (pun intended), especially as it provides no option for him to mend his ways or correct his behavior...
UNLESS...
We're talking about keeping him turned off until such a time as Federation technology would allow them to successfully diagnose and treat a malfunctioning Soong-type positronic brain (a feat even Soong himself seemed unable to pull off, in the end, though it doesn't appear as if he ever really tried, sadly). Of course, this brings up the disturbing question of just how much 'reconfiguration' would be morally allowed in this case?
To beg the question a bit more, think of it this way. If Lore were human, as we somehow devised a means by which to rewire and reconfigure a human to brain to whatever design we wish in order to edit out flaws in our thinking processes, at what point would said 'modifications' go from being a necessary correction of socipathic or psychopathic behavior patterns/potentials, and a outright butchering of personality?
This sort of discussion gets very disturbing, very quickly when applied... This doesn't even touch the issue of exactly how one could be certain that Lore's 'therapy' would have taken hold, or if he was just cleverly acting for the sake of his therapists until he was free and able to act of his own volition...
Turning him off does seem a bit... inhumane (pun intended), especially as it provides no option for him to mend his ways or correct his behavior...
UNLESS...
We're talking about keeping him turned off until such a time as Federation technology would allow them to successfully diagnose and treat a malfunctioning Soong-type positronic brain (a feat even Soong himself seemed unable to pull off, in the end, though it doesn't appear as if he ever really tried, sadly). Of course, this brings up the disturbing question of just how much 'reconfiguration' would be morally allowed in this case?
To beg the question a bit more, think of it this way. If Lore were human, as we somehow devised a means by which to rewire and reconfigure a human to brain to whatever design we wish in order to edit out flaws in our thinking processes, at what point would said 'modifications' go from being a necessary correction of socipathic or psychopathic behavior patterns/potentials, and a outright butchering of personality?
This sort of discussion gets very disturbing, very quickly when applied... This doesn't even touch the issue of exactly how one could be certain that Lore's 'therapy' would have taken hold, or if he was just cleverly acting for the sake of his therapists until he was free and able to act of his own volition...
Unfortunately, I consider Lore to be a bit of a failed concept, from a writing standpoint. While the idea of a dark counterpart to Data is interesting, I think the execution came out a little flawed. I think Lore could have made for a much more compelling character if his characterization had veered a little bit less toward 100% Ax Crazy and in a more sane direction.
Personally, I'd be interested in knowing just how bad he really was, before Soong dismantled him. Were his psychoses endemic to his design, or exacerbated by what I can only assume to be really bad parenting on Noonian and Juliana's part, as it would appear that they never successfully 'raised' a proper android (Data essentially being brought up by Starfleet)?
I simply feel that a more sympathetic (and perhaps more downplayed) portrayal of the character would probably have made for a much more compelling counterpart to Data than simply a crazy emotional doppleganger.
Sorry, I realize this really doesn't read well... I should probably not post when I'm exhausted and ready for bed, but there you have it...
Personally, I'd be interested in knowing just how bad he really was, before Soong dismantled him. Were his psychoses endemic to his design, or exacerbated by what I can only assume to be really bad parenting on Noonian and Juliana's part, as it would appear that they never successfully 'raised' a proper android (Data essentially being brought up by Starfleet)?
I simply feel that a more sympathetic (and perhaps more downplayed) portrayal of the character would probably have made for a much more compelling counterpart to Data than simply a crazy emotional doppleganger.
Sorry, I realize this really doesn't read well... I should probably not post when I'm exhausted and ready for bed, but there you have it...
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It's a bit weird that Lore would remain in the holds of the E-D for any length of time, dismantled or not. Why wouldn't the parts be delivered to Starfleet custody at earliest convenience? Why wouldn't Dr. Maddox be digging into the parts pile, having swept aside the possible legal concerns with ease as Lore had no defenders?
Timo Saloniemi
Timo Saloniemi
The android parts aren't that special, since Data was able to build Lal, and he is able to make repairs to his own skin. The only special part seems to be the positronic brain. And Maddox is a main player in "Immortal Coil".
Agreed that android-building is something that the Federation has down pat, and isn't especially interested in, in most of onscreen Trek. But by that token, Lore would have lost nothing important if his body parts blew up with the E-D - as long as his intriguing brain was in Maddox' custody. Why wasn't it? Were our TNG heroes keeping their dirty secrets in their closet or what?
Timo Saloniemi
Timo Saloniemi
Data was studying it. It was in his lab.
Maddox's lab isn't too safe either. It is also destroyed in the opening chapters of "Immortal Coil", IIRC.
Somehow I'm not happy with the idea that our starship crew would always be the leading experts on the things they encounter on their travels, or would continue to work on said things after the initial encounter, at the expense of experts elsewhere in the Federation.
It's a bit like implying that Tucker or Reed invented the phase cannon for Starfleet while underway on the NX-01 - an impression one might get from "Silent Enemy", even though that's not what's being stated. At least Scotty was never implied as having invented his own tools, or McCoy as having kept the Horta for personal study, or Spock as keeping the shards of Sargon's mystery sphere on his shelf for quiet contemplation. These folks were team players.
It has to be agreed, though, that if Soong's research was really outlandish, then he might have no real successors or disciples, but that Data might be the best substitute the Federation has. If so, though, Data should have been reassigned from the E-D to study Lore's skull with a dedicated team, or the team reassigned to the E-D. In which case the "accidental" loss of the brain wouldn't have happened in the suggested way.
Timo Saloniemi
It's a bit like implying that Tucker or Reed invented the phase cannon for Starfleet while underway on the NX-01 - an impression one might get from "Silent Enemy", even though that's not what's being stated. At least Scotty was never implied as having invented his own tools, or McCoy as having kept the Horta for personal study, or Spock as keeping the shards of Sargon's mystery sphere on his shelf for quiet contemplation. These folks were team players.
It has to be agreed, though, that if Soong's research was really outlandish, then he might have no real successors or disciples, but that Data might be the best substitute the Federation has. If so, though, Data should have been reassigned from the E-D to study Lore's skull with a dedicated team, or the team reassigned to the E-D. In which case the "accidental" loss of the brain wouldn't have happened in the suggested way.
Timo Saloniemi
Data, LaForge and Crusher are probably amongst the top people in the Federation when it comes to Soong-type androids, simply from the amount of time spent pouring over Data's opened skull. Data creating a new such brain, even if one that ultimately proved flawed and brief-lived, is as far as I know the closest anyone has come to replicating Soong's achievement. But their expertise is manifold, and they can't just drop their other responsibilities to work on what could possibly be a pipe dream, and one that's an ethical minefield besides.
Regarding the idea of restraint - certainly Lore is a very dangerous individual, but the Federation must have protocols in place for the restraint and incarceration of potential criminals from across a broad spectrum of species, including very strong ones. And obviously, no access to computers. Actually, Lore is an interesting case in that his head can function independently of his body: after he had been switched off and disassembled, they theoretically could have turned just the head back on and have Lore stand trial in that state. That might transgress somewhat on a right to bodily integrity, but it's better than being denied due process.
Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
Regarding the idea of restraint - certainly Lore is a very dangerous individual, but the Federation must have protocols in place for the restraint and incarceration of potential criminals from across a broad spectrum of species, including very strong ones. And obviously, no access to computers. Actually, Lore is an interesting case in that his head can function independently of his body: after he had been switched off and disassembled, they theoretically could have turned just the head back on and have Lore stand trial in that state. That might transgress somewhat on a right to bodily integrity, but it's better than being denied due process.
Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
I'm sorry, but the idea of just Lore's head sitting there on trial cracks me up.
^ Didn't you say you were starting Lexx? You should be used to disembodied heads by now... 
Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
Interestingly, I think that the fact that none of the characters ever paused to consider Lore's rights is actually very realistic. People have a habit of not really considering the rights of individuals that they regard as "the Other." Data isn't the Other because he's everyone's friend, but Lore certainly isn't.
True, but I'm surprised that Data didn't at least have some sort of problem with it, and you would think that Picard might after the way he defended Data's rights when Maddox wanted to take him apart.
Data was willing to fight for the rights of other artificial lifeforms, but not one of his own "race"? Was it Data who actually suggested that they disassemble Lore, or was that shown onscreen in any way? Been awhile since I've seen the episode.
In "Descent Part 2," it was Data himself who recommended that Lore "must be disassembled so that he is never again a threat."
And maybe in an odd way, Data was thinking about android rights. Maybe he was thinking that if Lore survived and showed the galaxy what a malevolent android was capable of, it would make people less willing to grant rights and freedom to Data and his possible descendants. So he sacrificed the one for the sake of the rest.
And maybe in an odd way, Data was thinking about android rights. Maybe he was thinking that if Lore survived and showed the galaxy what a malevolent android was capable of, it would make people less willing to grant rights and freedom to Data and his possible descendants. So he sacrificed the one for the sake of the rest.
^ Quite possibly, that could very well be what Data had in mind. Of course we know that Data is a "good guy" and I'm sure he had the best of intentions..but I think many of the questions about his actions here still stand.
"must be disassembled so that he is never again a threat." That implies that Data never had any intention of reassembling Lore, having him stand trial, be imprisoned or giving him ANY of the rights that Data himself enjoyed.
Data and the TNG crew often championed the rights of the individual over the rights of a group. It certainly seems like they threw all of this out the window in this case for a convenient solution. Making Lore "go away" was the easy thing to do, but I really have to question whether it was the right thing to do and consistent with the beliefs that the TNG crew so often stood for.
"must be disassembled so that he is never again a threat." That implies that Data never had any intention of reassembling Lore, having him stand trial, be imprisoned or giving him ANY of the rights that Data himself enjoyed.
Data and the TNG crew often championed the rights of the individual over the rights of a group. It certainly seems like they threw all of this out the window in this case for a convenient solution. Making Lore "go away" was the easy thing to do, but I really have to question whether it was the right thing to do and consistent with the beliefs that the TNG crew so often stood for.
Well, one way of looking at it might be this: The various civilizations that make up the Federation are given a lot of freedom to regulate their own internal affairs and practice their own policies. Since Data was a member of a "civilization" which at the time consisted solely of himself and Lore, it could be argued that it was his right to determine how the "justice system" worked within that civilization. Lore may have been entitled to judgment by a jury of his peers, but Data was the entirety of his peers, he was privy to all the facts of the case, and he could be relied on to make an objective judgment unswayed by emotion. I'm not saying I agree with that position, but it could've been a Prime Directive sort of issue, something where the decision was ultimately up to Data.
Anyway, you're right that it's a much pricklier issue than it was portrayed to be. It kind of fell prey to the writers' need to wrap up the story quickly. Now that I reflect on it, I recall thinking at the time that it was overkill to disassemble him permanently rather than just shutting him down until he could be incarcerated somewhere.
Anyway, you're right that it's a much pricklier issue than it was portrayed to be. It kind of fell prey to the writers' need to wrap up the story quickly. Now that I reflect on it, I recall thinking at the time that it was overkill to disassemble him permanently rather than just shutting him down until he could be incarcerated somewhere.
^ Very interesting take on it. I like the idea of Lore being judged by his peers, and the Soong androids making up their own civilization. That definitely gives Data a bit of wiggle room on the whole thing.
I agree that it was wrapped up quickly because the episode was over and perhaps the implications of the whole thing just didn't occur to the writers. I think it was a missed opportunity though.
I agree that it was wrapped up quickly because the episode was over and perhaps the implications of the whole thing just didn't occur to the writers. I think it was a missed opportunity though.
Yeah it wasn't ever stated where the Ent-D ended up in the script, the episode, or the novelization. This and the Meridian stuff in the book raised my eyebrow too.
The first conduit trip they took from the space around the MS System was to an undisclosed location. It's unclear how long they were in the conduit since it happened over a commercial break. When they arrived the Navigational systems were off-line. Data attempted to make a celestial fix using secondary systems but they were attacked by Lore's Borg ship before anyone could say how far they'd traveled.
The only other reference to the first trip's distance was by Geordi who said something like "Based on the distance we covered in our trip through the conduit, I’d say the speed [of travel in the conduit] is at least twenty times faster than our maximum warp."
The second trip through a conduit lasted about 20 seconds and they only traveled 65 light years in that time. So it's anyone's guess how far away they traveled on the first trip, but i never got the impression it was all the way to the Delta Quad. And of course it's never shown how they got home at the end of the Ep nor are the subspace conduits mentioned again until many years later in Voyager.
Which begs the question, if it was so easy for Ent to navigate the conduits home then why weren't the conduits ever mentioned again by someone from say... Project Pathfinder. But meh, you can always chalk it up to shoddy writing in the genuinely awful "Descent" episodes or, from an in universe perspective, to unreliable information on the part of the civilian Doctor Lars Patek.
Despite these particular oddlies Articles is still one of my absolute favorites.
For what it's worth, the cool bits involving Hugh and his rogue Borg faction in christopher's Greater Than the Sum took place around 2000 light years from here.
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