Questions about the Thallonians and Danteri

[Timo]

Perhaps we should be helping PAD out and correcting the little typo? The dialogue makes equal sense if it reads like this:

"Ryjaan. since the Danteri aren't members of the UFP, I am informing you that the Federation would consider it contrary to its best interests to have Danterian ships entering Thallonian space in any great numbers, inflaming an already inflammatory situation and stirring up hostilities."

That is, the benefit of doubt is mockingly given to the Danteri for not necessarily understanding how the UFP would react, as a non-member might theoretically be ignorant of the ways of the Federation.

And this one

"And you will let a member of the Federation - namely ourselves - deal alone with the security threat that the fallen Thallonian Empire represents?"

could be wishful thinking on Ryjaan's part, as he is postulating a future sequence of events and may be hoping that the future will bring along membership...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Baerbel Haddrell]

I have read the other quotes and discussion so far. I don`t think the situation is really confusing. I have no doubt that the Danteri are members of the Federation (at least they were in early NF). Ryjaan could have been clearer but I don`t think the Danteri are sitting at the top of the Federation. When he is speaking about “the Federation” he means the people of the Federation who make the big decisions.

A much better question is why the Danteri ARE members of the Federation, meaning what I mentioned before and others after me. The Federation is a power for good but they are not saints. A good example is their attitude towards Bajor during the occupation. My guess is, having the Danteri as members was also seen as a means to have more stability in that region of space after the fall of the Thallonian Empire. Maybe the Federation was hoping that, in time, they could influence the Danteri to be more “humane”.

 

[JoeZhang]

No that simply makes no sense to me - the Danteri as presented in the books were unsuitable for membership in the federation.

If they were suitable for membership, then that pretty much makes every major character presented on screen a liar, a dupe and a hypocrite and everything presented on-screen about the nature of the federation becomes suspect. It simply doesn't wash.

Now you could argue that members of Starfleet have done some shady things but that's a million miles away from openly inviting a empire that shots children in the streets into being a member.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The Federation is a power for good but they are not saints. A good example is their attitude towards Bajor during the occupation.

I assume you're aware that the Prime Directive would prevent the Federation from interfering in the occupation? Bajor, as victimized as it was, technically qualified as a Cardassian subject world (AFAIK, the two were associated with each other before the actual occupation began), and thus this was an internal matter in Cardassian politics - therefore off-limits to the Federation.

 

[Timo]

Only as long as the Federation decided to treat this as an internal matter. It would be up to them to decide - and they might just as well decide that Bajor had never lawfully entered under Cardassian rule. Or that Ferengi females are not subject to Ferengi law as they haven't been part of formulating it. Or that white is black and right is wrong. All that would matter is a) whether the Feds had the military strength to back up their decisions and b) whether the Feds could live with the decisions they made.

The situations on Xenex and Bajor would seem closely analogous: easy victims close to their assailants, far from the Federation core worlds, and of little significance to galactic affairs. The Feds would be unlikely to interfere in either case, as they surely had better things to do.

The situations regarding Danter and Cardassia are the ones that seem to differ. Why is the former a member but the latter is not? I could easily see Cardassia becoming a member if it so happened that they discovered the wormhole and then agreed to share it with other Alpha powers under certain terms. But it would probably take that sort of massive leverage to get Cardassia in. What leverage did Danter wield?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[JoeZhang]

Only as long as the Federation decided to treat this as an internal matter. It would be up to them to decide - and they might just as well decide that Bajor had never lawfully entered under Cardassian rule. Or that Ferengi females are not subject to Ferengi law as they haven't been part of formulating it. Or that white is black and right is wrong. All that would matter is a) whether the Feds had the military strength to back up their decisions and b) whether the Feds could live with the decisions they made.

The situations on Xenex and Bajor would seem closely analogous: easy victims close to their assailants, far from the Federation core worlds, and of little significance to galactic affairs. The Feds would be unlikely to interfere in either case, as they surely had better things to do.

The situations regarding Danter and Cardassia are the ones that seem to differ. Why is the former a member but the latter is not? I could easily see Cardassia becoming a member if it so happened that they discovered the wormhole and then agreed to share it with other Alpha powers under certain terms. But it would probably take that sort of massive leverage to get Cardassia in. What leverage did Danter wield?

Timo Saloniemi

Before the fall of the Central Command, the cardassian legal system is entirely at odds with everything we've seen about citizen rights in the federation. Again, I can see a strategic alliance but not membership.

 

[ToddCam]

PAD also once described the Klingons as members of the Federation. (It was one of his early TNG books, Strike Zone I think.) Maybe he thinks that allies of the Federation are members of the Federation, in a sense.

Either way, Danter, as it is now, would never be allowed membership in the Federation. It would violate everything the UFP stands for.

 

[Baerbel Haddrell]

The Federation is a power for good but they are not saints. A good example is their attitude towards Bajor during the occupation.

I assume you're aware that the Prime Directive would prevent the Federation from interfering in the occupation? Bajor, as victimized as it was, technically qualified as a Cardassian subject world (AFAIK, the two were associated with each other before the actual occupation began), and thus this was an internal matter in Cardassian politics - therefore off-limits to the Federation.

Have you read the first Terok Nor book "Day of the Vipers"? It explains a lot.

Putting that aside, in TNG it was mentioned that even giving humanitarian aid to Bajoran refugees is against the Prime Directive. I don`t think it would have been a good idea to go to war in order to help the Bajorans but just hiding behind the PD excuse and do absolutely nothing except maybe voicing some protests without any teeth behind them, that is just wrong.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Putting that aside, in TNG it was mentioned that even giving humanitarian aid to Bajoran refugees is against the Prime Directive.

No, it wasn't.

 

[captcalhoun]

PAD also once described the Klingons as members of the Federation. (It was one of his early TNG books, Strike Zone I think.) Maybe he thinks that allies of the Federation are members of the Federation, in a sense.

Either way, Danter, as it is now, would never be allowed membership in the Federation. It would violate everything the UFP stands for.

that book was written back when the Klingons WERE supposed to be members...

 

[Baerbel Haddrell]

Putting that aside, in TNG it was mentioned that even giving humanitarian aid to Bajoran refugees is against the Prime Directive.

No, it wasn't.

I don`t have a photographic memory but what I remember from "Ensign Ro" was clear: Giving humanitarian aid to Bajorans was the big exception, not the rule.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Putting that aside, in TNG it was mentioned that even giving humanitarian aid to Bajoran refugees is against the Prime Directive.

No, it wasn't.

I don`t have a photographic memory but what I remember from "Ensign Ro" was clear: Giving humanitarian aid to Bajorans was the big exception, not the rule.

The Prime Directive was never even brought up.

 

[KRAD]

that book was written back when the Klingons WERE supposed to be members...

Uhm, that time never existed. The Klingons were never supposed to be members....

 

[Thrawn]

From http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Samaritan_Snare_(episode)

During the scene aboard the shuttle when Wesley and Picard are chatting while the shuttle's autopilot is on, there is an extremely odd exchange of conversation. As Picard begins talking about his fight with the Nausicaans, Wesley asks, "Was this before the Klingons joined the Federation?" to which Picard answers "That's right."




It seems to me that, early in TNG, it wasn't really established yet, and they may have indeed thought that the Klingons had joined.

 

[David Mack]

^ Or that Wesley, all of maybe 14 years old, used "joined" as a shorthand for "joined an alliance with the Federation." After all, 14-year-olds usually aren't known for their keen political acumen.

 

[foravalon]

The situations regarding Danter and Cardassia are the ones that seem to differ. Why is the former a member but the latter is not?... But it would probably take that sort of massive leverage to get Cardassia in. What leverage did Danter wield?

Timo Saloniemi

The easy solution might just be a foothold into a strategically valuable sector. I think it's been fairly well established that the New Frontier stomping grounds are somewhat close to the Romulan Empire. Even though the talks and possible fed/danteri alliance came well before TNG's "The Neutral Zone" it's been shown in other books that there were already rumblings coming out of the RSE. That space would also seem to be a possible flanking position for the Thallonian Empire and the Klingon Empire.

The UFP has done plenty of things on the down-low in the name of preventative measures. As with the Ontalians and the Son'a during wartime, and likewise the shady affair with Tezwa, this too would seem to be an alliance with a long term goal not necessarily on the up and up.

 

[JoeZhang]

Didn't PAD write that from the show bible ? maybe he thought that Worf's presence meant they were members?

 

[Therin of Andor]

Didn't PAD write that from the show bible ? maybe he thought that Worf's presence meant they were members?

IIRC, the Season One bible talked about an alliance. But Worf was a very late addition as a regular character. When his lines for "Encounter at Farpoint" were written they weren't sure if he'd be much more than a day-player.

 

[ToddCam]

I don't know when he started writing that book (Strike Zone), but I'm pretty sure it takes place in the second season.

 

[JoeZhang]

When did we first find out that Worf wasn't actually from the Klingon Empire (in the sense that's he'd been largely raised by Humans).