Question about Trip's death

[Captain X]

Both JiNX and myself gave you succinct reasons for why Trip's death was contrived. Are you just not able to accept that there might be a legitimate reason for people to think that it was? If so, why did you even bother asking the question? Seems to me like your mind was already made up. I'm pissed because out of all of the deaths that they've done, Trip's was by far the most pointless and contrived, not just because I liked the character.

 

[galleywest]

^^ Well, it's valid, to not want to see a favorite character die.

As for me, I didn't like it because it was an offshoot of the Idiot Plot. The real Idiot Plot (as described by Ebert) is when an episode or a movie only moves forward because none of the characters will communicate with each other because if they did the movie would be over in about 5 minutes. This offshoot requires that a character who can normally say, stop a ship from exploding with a paper clip and a pop tart suddenly can't think of ANY other way out of a situation other than to nobly sacrifice himself or herself. This is done specifically to force reaction from the audience. Torchwood and Serenity, I'm looking at you. I just feel like it's tacky. As time goes on I have become a LOT more objective about ENT on the whole. How it ended irks me, but I find that it does so now not because I desperately want it to be on and feel cheated (like I did at the time), but because it's just so unsatisfying and silly. We deserved better, but at least Braga knows it and has said as much.

I will, however, agree that Terra Prime had some points that have NOT aged well with me. Specifically the whole "why we created a hybrid baby" thing. *cough*plot device*cough* I do like Archer's speech, and Trip and T'Pol got some nice moments, but the plot was too convoluted for me.

 

[erastus25]

Both JiNX and myself gave you succinct reasons for why Trip's death was contrived. Are you just not able to accept that there might be a legitimate reason for people to think that it was? If so, why did you even bother asking the question? Seems to me like your mind was already made up. I'm pissed because out of all of the deaths that they've done, Trip's was by far the most pointless and contrived, not just because I liked the character.

Chill out. I'm not trying to be a jerk. I do see how my comments may have come off as close-minded, and I apologize for that. I was just throwing another theory out there. I acknowledge that many people feel it was contrived and out of character, etc... I was just trying to play a little devil's advocate from the opposite perspective.

 

[JiNX-01]

I almost wonder if that's part of the reason for the complaints. We can argue incessantly about whether or not he panicked, and if the characters mourned off screen for him etc... But the bottom line is that many people seem to be upset because the death was unexpected and it hurt emotionally to see a favorite character die. This sounds much closer to the response most would have to a family member dying unexpectedly than the responses to Spock or Yar or Dax dying. Perhaps, the fact that everyone is so upset is actually a sign that they got it right this time.

When I watched TATV, I was off long before Trip's death. The episode was pure garbage. The TNG "guests" had way too much face time on another cast's show. The "plot" was at least 11 years old. And there was no drama in Riker's "problem" because we knew how it would end.

As for killing off Trip, I could have been OK with it. If there had been a decent scene of grief, loss and sadness. Here's what it would have taken: Archer summons T'Pol from the bridge. She knows there was an explosion on the ship. The bond between her and Trip tells her something is wrong. She runs through the ship's corridors -- a parallel to Kirk in TWoK. She's reaches Trip's side and they say their goodbyes. Archer stands nearby, tears streaming down his face. Phlox turns away, he can't even bear to watch...

 

[erastus25]

I almost wonder if that's part of the reason for the complaints. We can argue incessantly about whether or not he panicked, and if the characters mourned off screen for him etc... But the bottom line is that many people seem to be upset because the death was unexpected and it hurt emotionally to see a favorite character die. This sounds much closer to the response most would have to a family member dying unexpectedly than the responses to Spock or Yar or Dax dying. Perhaps, the fact that everyone is so upset is actually a sign that they got it right this time.

When I watched TATV, I was off long before Trip's death. The episode was pure garbage. The TNG "guests" had way too much face time on another cast's show. The "plot" was at least 11 years old. And there was no drama in Riker's "problem" because we knew how it would end.

As for killing off Trip, I could have been OK with it. If there had been a decent scene of grief, loss and sadness. Here's what it would have taken: Archer summons T'Pol from the bridge. She knows there was an explosion on the ship. The bond between her and Trip tells her something is wrong. She runs through the ship's corridors -- a parallel to Kirk in TWoK. She's reaches Trip's side and they say their goodbyes. Archer stands nearby, tears streaming down his face. Phlox turns away, he can't even bear to watch...

Yeah, it's a lot easier to watch TATV for the first time if you know what to expect. I can't imagine how much that would have sucked to turn on one of my favorite shows and see it end like that. Especially if you know The Pegasus well enough to know that this plot doesn't really fit in very well. That does make sense though that it's not really Trip's death alone that irritated people, but rather it was the icing on the cake of a poor finale. I think I had always been trying to separate those two, but as I hear more from the Enterprise fans it becomes clear that the two events are so linked it's very difficult to look at them completely separately.

 

[JiNX-01]

I almost wonder if that's part of the reason for the complaints. We can argue incessantly about whether or not he panicked, and if the characters mourned off screen for him etc... But the bottom line is that many people seem to be upset because the death was unexpected and it hurt emotionally to see a favorite character die. This sounds much closer to the response most would have to a family member dying unexpectedly than the responses to Spock or Yar or Dax dying. Perhaps, the fact that everyone is so upset is actually a sign that they got it right this time.

When I watched TATV, I was off long before Trip's death. The episode was pure garbage. The TNG "guests" had way too much face time on another cast's show. The "plot" was at least 11 years old. And there was no drama in Riker's "problem" because we knew how it would end.

As for killing off Trip, I could have been OK with it. If there had been a decent scene of grief, loss and sadness. Here's what it would have taken: Archer summons T'Pol from the bridge. She knows there was an explosion on the ship. The bond between her and Trip tells her something is wrong. She runs through the ship's corridors -- a parallel to Kirk in TWoK. She's reaches Trip's side and they say their goodbyes. Archer stands nearby, tears streaming down his face. Phlox turns away, he can't even bear to watch...

Yeah, it's a lot easier to watch TATV for the first time if you know what to expect. I can't imagine how much that would have sucked to turn on one of my favorite shows and see it end like that. Especially if you know The Pegasus well enough to know that this plot doesn't really fit in very well. That does make sense though that it's not really Trip's death alone that irritated people, but rather it was the icing on the cake of a poor finale. I think I had always been trying to separate those two, but as I hear more from the Enterprise fans it becomes clear that the two events are so linked it's very difficult to look at them completely separately.

I had NO WARNING.

 

[gblews]

^^
I will, however, agree that Terra Prime had some points that have NOT aged well with me. Specifically the whole "why we created a hybrid baby" thing. *cough*plot device*cough*

Allow me to jump in, since this point seems to get brought up every so often and because TP remains one of my favorite ENT episodes.

The hybrid was created to frighten humans into believing that humans and Vulcans could breed "naturally", thereby bolstering Paxton's claims that humans could be bred out of existence. And the baby WAS used, contrary to popular misrememberance.

Paxton broadcast her picture over the air during the speech leading up to his shooting the Verteron weapon at Starfleet while telling his audience that little Liz symbolized the 'end of humanity', or some such. It actually fit in rather well with the underlying theme of the episode, which BTW, for me, takes precedent over minor plot glitches. Every episode had those.

 

[MattJC]

^^
I will, however, agree that Terra Prime had some points that have NOT aged well with me. Specifically the whole "why we created a hybrid baby" thing. *cough*plot device*cough*

Allow me to jump in, since this point seems to get brought up every so often and because TP remains one of my favorite ENT episodes.

The hybrid was created to frighten humans into believing that humans and Vulcans could breed "naturally", thereby bolstering Paxton's claims that humans could be bred out of existence. And the baby WAS used, contrary to popular misrememberance.

Paxton broadcast her picture over the air during the speech leading up to his shooting the Verteron weapon at Starfleet while telling his audience that little Liz symbolized the 'end of humanity', or some such. It actually fit in rather well with the underlying theme of the episode, which BTW, for me, takes precedent over minor plot glitches. Every episode had those.

Paxton also had a conversation with T'pol, where he mentioned something about the extinction of the human race.

 

[galleywest]

^^
I will, however, agree that Terra Prime had some points that have NOT aged well with me. Specifically the whole "why we created a hybrid baby" thing. *cough*plot device*cough*

Allow me to jump in, since this point seems to get brought up every so often and because TP remains one of my favorite ENT episodes.

The hybrid was created to frighten humans into believing that humans and Vulcans could breed "naturally", thereby bolstering Paxton's claims that humans could be bred out of existence. And the baby WAS used, contrary to popular misrememberance.

Paxton broadcast her picture over the air during the speech leading up to his shooting the Verteron weapon at Starfleet while telling his audience that little Liz symbolized the 'end of humanity', or some such. It actually fit in rather well with the underlying theme of the episode, which BTW, for me, takes precedent over minor plot glitches. Every episode had those.

Paxton also had a conversation with T'pol, where he mentioned something about the extinction of the human race.

I know the ostensible reason the baby was created. I just think it was silly, and a lot of trouble for a little payoff (for the people using the baby, I mean). I mean, why actually create the hybrid, thereby creating a basis for further research, healthier hybrids, and an easier process later on? It's like building a nuclear bomb and saying, "It can be done! And it's really dangerous. So don't build one. Like this one here. That we built. D'oh!" *facepalm*

Although they say that babies sell. And puppies. Maybe they had a Vulcan/Earth puppy hybrid they were working on next, to really scare people. Okay, okay, I'm sorry. I kid. I did actually enjoy the episode when it aired--loved the very last scene with Trip and T'Pol, some great Archer moments. But this is probably fodder for another thread. Sorry.

 

[pookha]

to add on to gblews thought about the baby. remmeber the baby looked more vulcan then human with the ears thus the humanity will lose its identity if they breed with vulcans.
and i wonder if they were playing around with giving paxton even more twisted reason.
using the baby as a source to produce the medication he needed to survive and once they learned to perhaps use her cells to keep on creating it letting her die.
they did make a point about it being rigellian therapy and the connection of biology with rigellian goes back to journey to babel.

as for trips death it is a just another bit of silliness within a silly episode.
sorta 12 out of 42 reasons the episode dosnt make sense and contradicts both tng and enterprise lore.

trip was out of character as well were several of the other characters.

and loony slips of logic like a very slow ship being able to over take enterprise.

 

[galleywest]

as for trips death it is a just another bit of silliness within a silly episode.
sorta 12 out of 42 reasons the episode dosnt make sense and contradicts both tng and enterprise lore.

This is a good way of putting it.

 

[STIntergalactic]

I never really thought Trip acted irrational. People seem to think he lost control when Archer was threatened, but I disagree. This wasn't like any other time during the NX-01's mission, Archer was set to become one of the most important figures in Earth history. Trip not only had his loyalty to his friend to consider, but potentially galactic diplomatic relations could be disrupted. Archer had to live! Trip only seemed to be acting irrationally because that was part of his act. It was quite clear at the end that he knew what he was doing. If he acted cool and matter-of-factly, the aliens would have realized he was up to something.

I think Trip's death was better written and acted than Spock's. IMHO, in TWOK somebody else in engineering should have stepped up to the plate long before Spock even got down there. Spock is the only person on the Enterprise with that good of a sense of duty? Trip made a truly snap decision, when nobody else was available, and followed through with it perfectly.

 

[commodore64]

To me that book only did injustice to the series and all the characters.

Yeah.

I don't know Erastus. You raise some good points above. But ... I don't know if it's devotion to a character. I only have my own devotion to speak of.

I love Spock. Spock was/is/will always be my all time favorite character, including my fav Star Trek character. I went to see TWOK the first day and was *devastated*! It was a shock. I still cry when I see Spock die. I even still choke up at the silly bagpipes playing Amazing Grace and when Kirk calls Spock one of the most human people he's ever known. I also didn't think Spock would ever come back. Nimoy at the time indicated he was done with Star Trek; I believed him!

Despite the devastation at Spock never returning, I never wrote to Roddenberry and called him an idiot. I never wrote into the fanzines. And I had to admit, even at the tender age of around 12, I believed it was the right way for him to go. I still have mixed emotions about his return, despite also loving SfS.

I don't, to be fair, get the devotion to Trip. A good character, but not a great one in my estimation. I don't understand the bitterness to TATV, other than wondering if people were "promised" something they didn't get -- incorrect reports were out at the time promising all kinds of stuff for Tucker fans. I don't even understand why it's still an issue. I hate episodes, I love episodes. The show is gone and there's really no point any more - to me - in treading over trodden (in this case obliterated) ground.

I will say this: fans are fanatics, literally. I'm a fanatic about some parts of ENT (like that I like ties to TOS, but think season 4 was mostly a bunch of fanwank, etc.). I believe fans over-react because of their well-intended devotion. My comment - I believe - still stands: this particular forum - by consensus - may rue the day Trip was killed and hate TATV, but I doubt fans outside of this forum care. As an example, TATV was voted one of the best Archer episodes and is now in the captain's DVD set.

I guess at the end of the day, it doesn't matter to me what people here think. I care about what I think. And that leads me to ... you should never have to explain you're playing "devil's advocate" in my opinion -- even if people don't like your opinion. (Read Witchie's signature.) Your opinions - whatever they may be - are valid because you feel them. People may not agree, but ... who cares? ;-) I hope you stay at the forum.

 

[Zane Gray]

I almost wonder if that's part of the reason for the complaints. We can argue incessantly about whether or not he panicked, and if the characters mourned off screen for him etc... But the bottom line is that many people seem to be upset because the death was unexpected and it hurt emotionally to see a favorite character die. This sounds much closer to the response most would have to a family member dying unexpectedly than the responses to Spock or Yar or Dax dying. Perhaps, the fact that everyone is so upset is actually a sign that they got it right this time.

No, it's a lot more than that. Trip's death is just one last straw in an episode that was, frankly, a mess on many levels. As others have said, it's just one of like 42 reasons why the episode was irritating. Even most of the cast and crew hated the episode, as Braga himself has admitted. Had Trip's death been handled well and been well written, people would have accepted it, especially with the show ending. It would have had actual emotional impact. But as it was presented onscreen, it was just very haphazard. Braga has also admitted, it's worth noting, that looking back the episode just didn't fit with the rest of the season. He has regrets about it.

Speaking for myself, I just wanted the same kind of ending that TNG, Voyager and DS9 got. Something that really serviced the characters, and that rewarded the fans who had stayed with Enterprise for four seasons. So many other Trek fans trashed the show even when it was on the air, that the whole idea of the final episode being a Valentine to all Star Trek fans ended up feeling a little more like a betrayal.

Damnit, we never even got to see Archer's big speech! And if you're going to involve Riker and Troi, the REAL Valentine to fans would have been to have them appear post-Nemesis, on the Titan. Give a glimpe at the ship exterior, maybe Riker's ready room. You wouldn't have had to show much. Doing that would have shown that Star Trek is continuing into the future, even as Riker looked back at Enterprise. I think it could have worked wonderfully.

And I second C64 on one thing... you shouldn't have to feel bad for your opinion. Everyone is entitled to theirs. Entertainment and fandom is a very personal, subjective experience.

 

[Noname Given]

Erastus, I just had a cousin who moved from Boston to Portland. I guess it was an East/West Coast exchange. The weather sounds about the same these days.

Onto Terra Prime - Jinx, you're nice, but I thought it was one of the most ridiculous plots from Enterprise.

1. Baby was created to ...? (No reason)

You're kidding right? I assume you actually bothered to watch the episode and didn't just fast scan through it. The child was created to stir up anti-alien sentiment and support for Terra Prime among those who were 'on the fence'. She was shown as part of the initial solar system broadcast; and from all accounts of people arround the conference it worked as demostrations and riots broke out against alien embassies planet-wide - and the Alliance Conference was placed on hold and ultimately cancelled at the end, although the idea wasn't totally abandoned. Her 'reason for creation' was definitely spelled out.

2. No one remembered Lorian. Dumb. You think T'Pol or Trip would; he's their son after all.

No arguement here; a slip up - chalk it up to temporal re-alignment as after the events in E2 it was postulated that since the timeline was changed, Lorian and the rest never existed, so maybe thay faded from momory too.

3. Trip and T'Pol didn't go under cover. *Whoah* big surprise they were captured. Made them look stupid.

Actually, the DID go under cover, but didn't bother to change their looks; and Trip was discovered because his face (and evidently a lot of the Enterprise crew) was plastered in magazines and vide screens and news reports after the Xindi crisis was over. Personally, I don't mind that they thouht they wouldn't be recognized since neither Trip or T'Pol struck me as folks who'd watch a lot of TV (so to speak). They screwed up. A nice change of pace from th 'perfect' plans of the 24th century era.

4. Angry, racist (played by Peter Weller) had absolutely no redeeming quality. Your bad guy should always be semi-understandable (even Khan had an upside). I love Peter Weller, but he got the shaft in this episode.

I disagree. I don't think his motives were that out of line or not understanable. He believed (like Hitler did before) that 'purity of race' was something to be protected and nurtured; and he felt alien influence was corrupting humanity both spiritually and in the future might also do so genetically; thus he was takiong extreme steps to protect humanity (as he saw it). I liked the tie in use of 'Col. Green' (first talked about in TOS) establishing that he was alive post WWIII - and that in his own way, he tokk similar 'harsh but required' steps to ensure humanity would survive to the future. In fact this is probably where the character drew inspiration for his current actions from.

5. Trip threw a fit and seemed to accuse T'Pol of abortion. That seemed mightily out of character to me.

Huh? You mean Trip's human and after being told he's the father of a child he never knew existed before he actually has an uncontrolled emotional outburst? Don't see the problem here. Also, I wouldn't characterize it the way you did - BOTH T'Pol and Trip were shocked and were trying to come to grips with the situation and figure out how this all happened (and the fact they HAD been physically intimate about a year earlier didn't help). Again, I like that Trip was written like an actual human being here.

6. The aliens didn't really band together to overthrow Terra Prime, kinda lessening the impact of them banding together. And why isn't anyone screaming Super!Archer here? They seemed to be motivated by his words into action, not necessarily the events themselves.

The aliens wanted nothing to do with Earth's internal political situation (an d Terra Prime certainly brought elements of human nature that still existed to light). Remember that the conference was cancelled AND the idea actually abandoned during a point in the story. And, Archer's stopping Paxton and his speech in the end DIDN'T result in an Alliance being formed (which was what was going to happen); but just put the idea of one day HAVING an Alliance in the future when Earth was ready; back on the table.

7. Archer's "clap louder" was the dorkiest thing he's ever done - way dorkier than nearly making a diplomacy mistake over a dog - and out of character. And what a dumb moment for Trip to not even politely clap. Again, please give these characters some dignity.

Oh please, I liked that because as often happens history books would probably show that 'everyone was in agreement and enthusiastic'; which is never the case. Look how much of early U.S. revolutionary history was so 'romantizied' over the centuries; as opposed to what ACTUALLY was the case if you happen to read some accounts unedited written accounts from the delegates themselves. The ENT crew was upset that their role was hardly mentioned/acknowledged; BUT Archer realized they had to put on a enthusiastic/happy demeanor for the course of the proceedings for things to turn out well.

8. Travis' love interest story was of no interest. The show was almost over, why bother trying to develop a character we'd never see again?

Agreed here, but given this was to originally the ENT finale story - they gave ALL the bit characters something to do. Reed needed to contact section 31 for assistance, Hoshi actually got to command the NX-01 in a critical situation and we saw her make a tough decision; and Travis got some dialog and a love interest that was tied to the overall plot as she was working for Starfleet Intelligence.

9. Wreckless fanwank mention. "Oh, if we mention Colonel Green, we're TOS." No.

Actually no, not a 'reckless fanwank mention' at all. If you NEVER saw a TOS episode; the use of 'Col Green' as done here did fit and helped explain some of Paxton's motivations for his actions. If you did see the TOS episode The Savage Curtain and remembered the mention of Col. Green in that episode...I thought it worked fine and served the story that they were telling about Paxton.

10. Geez Archer stands in front of some glass. I wonder if it's going to crack? <-- Did anyone really wonder?

You have something against 'pulp' elements in your science fiction?

11. Who is responsible for this evil of grabbing DNA? Kelby who we all hate? No. Ensign Noname. Noname had no impact.

Well, while I don't hate Kelby (Again he had an inferiority omplex; but who would after being expected to instantly fill the shoes of a more experienced engineer; and then to have that engineer - at the request of your own captain - com back and take over to 'fix things' in a criticl situation (a few episodes before); yeah, the fact it was a noname ensign was a bit of a letdown; although the fact they showed him commiting suicide up close and personal in front of Captain Archer himself was not.

Yes, Archer's speech was great. I think that speech and the less than the one minute of T'Pol consoling Trip made the episode. I would guess that's about five minutes of screen time from 120 minutes. Not worth it.

This plot has more holes than a police station has donuts.

Well, please show me a perfect TV script/story and I'll agree. Yes there were a cuple of plot streches here; bu overall, I thought it held up nicely an was one of the better stories told in ENT's 4th season.

 

[pookha]

as for trips death it is a just another bit of silliness within a silly episode.
sorta 12 out of 42 reasons the episode dosnt make sense and contradicts both tng and enterprise lore.

This is a good way of putting it.

yeah it was so silly one would think a member of the of St. Looney-Up-The-Cream-Bun-And-Jam church had written it.


one thing to remember is that part of it existed in some form from the previous year.
then braga wrote over parts of it.
which may be why some parts just feel disjointed beyond the errors with the other shows.

there are things that just dont make sense in context of what happened earlier in the episode.
as if braga couldnt keep up with what he had written in the previous scene.

really now i just laugh at it though it makes me sad that some who had stopped watching enterprise saw it and to them it proved ever complaint they ever had about how enterprise ignored what happened in the previous series.

 

[gblews]

I mean, why actually create the hybrid, thereby creating a basis for further research, healthier hybrids, and an easier process later on?

Two reasons; one, Paxton thought his plan would work and all aliens would be exiled from Earth thereby rendering the pursuit of further research in human/alien breeding moot, and two, because Paxton was crazy.

It actually was a well thought out episode, with a powerful and profound message which, unlike so many Trek message shows, was delivered with subtlety. My guess is that it would have been even better had D/TP been a 3 parter as originally envisioned.

But the Beebs thought using the final hour of ENT to experiment and pull a ratings stunt was more important. I AM thnkful though that this was the only one they got their grubby little hands on in season 4, so I can still think about (nearly) everything up to TP and smile.

 

[erastus25]

Damnit, we never even got to see Archer's big speech!

As someone who wasn't heavily invested in the series, that was what really got to me when I watched TATV. I was all excited because they kept talking about it and then they just faded away. What was the point of all the buildup if there wasn't going to be some kind of payoff???

 

[Mr. Fergy]

Cool av, erastus! Is it consensus? I don't think so. I believe much like you did that Trip died for a noble cause.

Well, the cause was certainly noble, but the fact that they killed him off at all, plus, IMHO, the precipitous manner in which it was handled, was very unsatisfying for the fans.

Agreed. Trip's "Death" was unnecessary, artificial, and rushed IMHO.

 

[presence]

I just watched TATV for the second time. First time was on the Captain's Log set, before I had actually watched the whole ENT series. This time it after watching all four seasons.

We'll start with Terra Prime, which I liked (As an aside, Peter Weller's face and delivery (not his character) kept reminding me of Robert Lansing as Gary Seven in TOS's Assignment Earth. Made me wish they brought back Seven played by Weller). As Manny Coto says in the Season Four special features, ENT had two endings -- Terra Prime and TATV. Of the two, I feel that Terra Prime was a better send-off. I heard Jonathan Frakes speak near my home last fall and he didn't seem to think TATV was a good send-off either, though I think he was more critical than I am. The main part of TATV could have made a descent holodeck show (minus Trip's death) in the middle of the season and I enjoyed Riker's conversations with the crew. TATV did seemed rushed in its writing. I didn't feel that six years had passed, Trip seemed like he was on amphetamines when he was talking with the aliens, and as my fourteen year old son remarked: "Dad, what was with Trip's wink as he slid into the chamber in Sickbay?" I know that no one on the ENT staff has ever alluded to this, but I can't help saying that the ENT part of TATV feels like the first of a two-part episode, the second part of which just hangs out there cause it was never made. For a show in a series that was interested in continuity, TATV didn't have a lot of it.

If you're going to kill off a major character -- and Trip was the third in the Archer, T'Pol, Trip triumvirate (reminiscent of Kirk, Spock & McCoy) -- then do so in a way that gives his death the space (no pun intended!) it deserves.