Question about General Martok (sort of)

[tim0122]

So, I was thinking the other day, was it ever explained how the General Martok changeling cheated the blood test in The Way Of The Warrior? I've watched that episode a few times and can remember no explanation for it in the two parter nor in any episode after it. Having changelings find out how to cheat the test might've been interesting, but it seems like TWOTW writers tried to ignore this inconsistency by never addressing it, that way they could have their twist later in the story even though it doesn't make sense.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

So, I was thinking the other day, was it ever explained how the General Martok changeling cheated the blood test in The Way Of The Warrior? I've watched that episode a few times and can remember no explanation for it in the two parter nor in any episode after it. Having changelings find out how to cheat the test might've been interesting, but it seems like TWOTW writers tried to ignore this inconsistency by never addressing it, that way they could have their twist later in the story even though it doesn't make sense.

Joe Sisko worked in out:

This business has got you so twisted around you can't think straight. You're seeing shape-shifters everywhere. Maybe you ought to think about something for a minute. If I was a smart shape-shifter, a really good one, the first thing I would do would be to grab some poor soul off the street, absorb every ounce of his blood, and let it out on cue whenever someone like you tried to test me. Don't you see? There isn't a test that's been created a smart man can't find his way around. You aren't going to catch shape-shifters using some gadget. The only thing you can count on in this life is ...

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

The only thing you can count on in this life is ...

Is what dammit?! I need to know

Love the coup episodes!

 

[Vandervecken]

How does the Changeling keep the blood from denaturing and congealing? I gues it could conceal some sort of refrigeration device inside itself and keep it for about 3 days--but at the blood screen they will see the temp and know it's not right. If the Changeling reheats it, I am pretty sure it will show denaturing that will also shout BS to the screeners. Anway it would have to add an anticoagulant to the blood to keep it from clotting and that would show, too.

If the Changeling does this within minutes of the test then maybe it has a chance. I mean under 5 or so. 10 is pushing it.

 

[Tosk]

A Changeling can turn into fog, or a space-faring creature, or fire...I doubt a rudimentary circulatory system would be too difficult.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Is what dammit?! I need to know

The secrets of Creole cuisine, lost forever! (I'm sure it was celery seed)

How does the Changeling keep the blood from denaturing and congealing?

Considering how deep the imitation of lifeforms could go, I would suspect that a talented changeling could create an enclosed, fully functioning circulatory system.

Something to keep in mind is that Homefront was supposed to be the Season 3 finale. Joe Sisko's speech was written, most likely, before the notion of Martok's test (let alone being a changeling) was conceived. At least within the chronology of production, Joe Sisko was begging the question.

 

[Vandervecken]

A Changeling can turn into fog, or a space-faring creature, or fire...I doubt a rudimentary circulatory system would be too difficult.

I think that mechanical movement will keep it from clotting for longer, yes. Temperature would still require some sort of artificial unit unless somehow temp control is a shapeshifter ability.

But rudimentary won't cut it biochemically. Red blood cells will begin dying and releasing toxins and denatured proteins inside of 4 hours I think. But--and I can't swear to this, I don't know for sure--I'd bet all kinds of other markers that would shout to a biochemist "this blood didn't just come from a living body!" would be released very quickly, probably in the time frame in which clotting would occur if the blood hadn't been kept in motion (5-10 minutes).

Considering how deep the imitation of lifeforms could go, I would suspect that a talented changeling could create an enclosed, fully functioning circulatory system.

Something to keep in mind is that Homefront was supposed to be the Season 3 finale. Joe Sisko's speech was written, most likely, before the notion of Martok's test (let alone being a changeling) was conceived. At least within the chronology of production, Joe Sisko was begging the question.

If their mimicry was THAT good then I think the blood test reallly would be useless. They could create a Klingon spleen (or whatever they have) and everything else and just make blood of the species they are imitating.

The times I have given are for human blood but I don't see any reason to think Klingons are so different that the times to spoilage and clotting would be radically different.

 

[DonIago]

One could argue that the top brass always knew the blood tests were nothing but a placebo effect. In other words, it would have no tangible benefits, but would at least present the impression that something was being done.

I found the phaser sweeps a more interesting though perhaps less practical option. OTOH, a changeling disguised as a carpet isn't going to submit to a blood test.

 

[Timo]

Having changelings find out how to cheat the test might've been interesting

But that's the opposite of what happened. Changelings didn't learn to cheat the test - Changelings invented the test in the first place! There would have been no such testing (either in the Empire or in the Federation) if not for the example of Martok, who was a Changeling.

Naturally, the Founders would introduce a worthless test. But probably not in order to evade detection - rather, they'd wish to sow confusion and distrust of the exact sort that emerged in "Homefront".

One could argue that the top brass always knew the blood tests were nothing but a placebo effect. In other words, it would have no tangible benefits, but would at least present the impression that something was being done.

That's the dramatic role the test plays in "Homefront", yes. Admiral Leyton doesn't want to catch Changelings - smoking out all the infiltrators would be a defeat for him, for then he would have to stop smoking them out!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[DonIago]

Well, I'd like to believe Leyton wasn't quite that self-serving...

 

[Bad Thoughts]

If their mimicry was THAT good then I think the blood test reallly would be useless.

Which is what they proved to be. Read my post more carefully: the ideas were not developed in the order in which they appeared in the episodes.

 

[Vandervecken]

Which is what they proved to be. Read my post more carefully: the ideas were not developed in the order in which they appeared in the episodes.

I read it but being out of order doesn't explain how the blood would keep, and that the test is ENTIRELY useless is not the explanation being given to viewers through Joe Sisko.

 

[Tosk]

I think that mechanical movement will keep it from clotting for longer, yes. Temperature would still require some sort of artificial unit unless somehow temp control is a shapeshifter ability.

It is. A Changeling can turn into fire, into ice, into wood, flesh...keeping blood fresh would be simple.

Heck, if they really wanted to a Changeling could probably envelope a human whole and walk them around as a slightly bigger version of the same person.

 

[Jedman67]

So, I was thinking the other day, was it ever explained how the General Martok changeling cheated the blood test in The Way Of The Warrior? I've watched that episode a few times and can remember no explanation for it in the two parter nor in any episode after it. Having changelings find out how to cheat the test might've been interesting, but it seems like TWOTW writers tried to ignore this inconsistency by never addressing it, that way they could have their twist later in the story even though it doesn't make sense.

It's been established that changelings can fake the test, the how is not really necessary. Let's say that Odo disguises himself as worf. Does he now have Klingon blood and bones inside him, or is it just the appearance that's mimicked? I believe that the better changelings can actually become their subjects, not just imitate them. So basically, they can mix the real blood with the fake blood in their fakes bodies to keep it fresh, and let it out during a blood test.

Also, Changeling Martok was most probably a retcon; in TWOTW he was imagined as being the "real" Martok.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Joe Sisko is not there to provide the precise explanation, only to show that tests are themselves problematic. Do you need the precise explanation? There are plenty of grey areas in science fiction, Trek not excepted.

 

[saladdays]

Perhaps some changelings can keep the disconnected parts of their body posing as blood in that state longer than others? Maybe the changeling Martok was one of the better shapeshifters. I mean, some changelings are truly identified after a blood test, so there would have to be some reason why some changelings get caught and others don't.

 

[Timo]

Perhaps some changelings can keep the disconnected parts of their body posing as blood in that state longer than others?

We have no reason to think that any adult Changeling would have any problem keeping disconnected body parts indefinitely under its control. No adult Changeling ever loses such control, after all.

Odo doesn't know much about being a Changeling. Even within the Link, he only learns what he is allowed to learn; he is Starfleet's leading source of disinformation on Changelings.

I mean, some changelings are truly identified after a blood test

Where? In "The Adversary", the Changeling uses the blood test to its advantage and is not exposed by it, even when our heroes mistakenly think an exposure happens. In "Homefront"/"Paradise Lost", no Changelings are exposed by this test or others (although Odo's handshake exposes one). Beyond this, Changelings successfully pose as central characters such as Bashir, for weeks or months at an end; they are also shown successfully imitating Klingons and Romulans for great lengths of time.

The test is great for giving false negatives (Martok in "Way of the Warrior") and false positives (Eddington in "The Adversary"), but never gives a true result AFAWK.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[saladdays]

We have no reason to think that any adult Changeling would have any problem keeping disconnected body parts indefinitely under its control. No adult Changeling ever loses such control, after all.

That's why I posed the question.

Where? In "The Adversary", the Changeling uses the blood test to its advantage and is not exposed by it, even when our heroes mistakenly think an exposure happens. In "Homefront"/"Paradise Lost", no Changelings are exposed by this test or others (although Odo's handshake exposes one). Beyond this, Changelings successfully pose as central characters such as Bashir, for weeks or months at an end; they are also shown successfully imitating Klingons and Romulans for great lengths of time.

The test is great for giving false negatives (Martok in "Way of the Warrior") and false positives (Eddington in "The Adversary"), but never gives a true result AFAWK.

Pardon me, as I am in the middle of watching the series again (mid way in season 5), so some of this I am going by long-term memory. I thought I remembered this being shown as working on the show at some point, but I suppose I'm wrong.

 

[tim0122]

Also, Changeling Martok was most probably a retcon; in TWOTW he was imagined as being the "real" Martok.

Unless I'm remembering the two-parter completely wrong, don't they establish at the end of the second episode that Martok is a changeling? If so, that would be pretty bad writing to have to retcon something that happened in the previous episode. I have more faith in Behr as a writer than that.

 

[saladdays]

Unless I'm remembering the two-parter completely wrong, don't they establish at the end of the second episode that Martok is a changeling? If so, that would be pretty bad writing to have to retcon something that happened in the previous episode. I have more faith in Behr as a writer than that.

No. You don't know Martok is a changeling until Apocalypse Rising, the first episode of season 5.