Question about "Dreams of the Raven"

[Unimatrix Q]

"By the way, i remember reading a TOS novel "Dreams of the Raven" (in a german translation) as a kid. Because i had only having begun watching TNG in TV at that time and only knowing about TOS from a book about the Star Trek universe back then, i didn't knew about the bird creature.

Wonder if the alien species in "Dreams of the Raven" was meant to be the bird humanoids from "The Cage" or if they were based on them."

https://www.trekbbs.com/posts/13926734/

 

[Kor]

If I remember right, the aliens in "Dreams of the Raven" were not covered in feathers like the creature in "The Cage." Also, the beings in the novel are blue with red eyes, which doesn't match the one in "The Cage."

Kor

 

[Unimatrix Q]

If I remember right, the aliens in "Dreams of the Raven" were not covered in feathers like the creature in "The Cage." Also, the beings in the novel are blue with red eyes, which doesn't match the one in "The Cage."

Kor

Yeah, you're right. Had totally forgotten that. Thinking about it, the head of the bird creature may also have been too small for having a human brain inside.

But perhaps the autor may have been inspired by the birds from "The Cage".

 

[Christopher]

But perhaps the autor may have been inspired by the birds from "The Cage".

I doubt she even knew about the bird creature from "The Cage." It was cut out of "The Menagerie," and "The Cage" wasn't released on home video until November 1986, which was probably after the novel was written.

Besides, it's obvious from the title that Carmen Carter was inspired by ravens. She wanted black, beaked aliens that were reminiscent of ravens or crows, birds traditionally perceived in culture as symbols of death or ill omens. The homage she had in mind was to that larger cultural history and symbology. So don't overthink it looking for obscure allusions when there's a much more obvious one that the book makes no secret of.

 

[trynda1701]

"Dreams of the Raven" was a favourite of mine from the early Pocket books. It was CREEPY how the aliens fooled everyone the way they did!!

 

[Desert Kris]

Oh hey, Dreams of the Raven! Love that book!

...I have nothing useful to contribute beyond that...

 

[Therin of Andor]

Wonder if the alien species in "Dreams of the Raven" was meant to be the bird humanoids from "The Cage" or if they were based on them."

No, but this is probably "The Cage" alien avian, featured on the cover of Barbara Hambly's "Ghost-Walker":
https://memory-beta.fandom.com/wiki/Ghost-Walker

Or this Aurelian?


Ian as an Aurelian from TAS by Ian McLean, on Flickr

I doubt she even knew about the bird creature from "The Cage." It was cut out of "The Menagerie," and "The Cage" wasn't released on home video until November 1986, which was probably after the novel was written.

Fairly sure a pic of the bird alien was in the first Allan Asherman "Star Trek Compendium" (1981).

 

[Christopher]

Fairly sure a pic of the bird alien was in the first Allan Asherman "Star Trek Compendium" (1981).

And TAS aired on television, but there were plenty of novelists who never saw it. Not everyone knows the same things.

Besides, the Ravens aren't actually avian at all, despite the symbolic name. The only vaguely birdlike features they have are round eyes and a beak, but the beak is described as chitinous, like an insect or crustacean body part, rather than keratinous like a bird beak. They're actually more insectlike than birdlike, with larval forms and a Queen. And they have rubbery blue-black skin with mohawk-like crests of bristly hair. As I visualize them, they have an almost ant-like quality.

 

[flandry84]

I remember the book well and liked how the Enterprises medical division was fleshed out.

 

[Reanok]

I really like this book alot I reread it several months ago. I like how you got to see more of the Medical divion officers in this book.The alien ravens were scary.

 

[T'Ressa Dax]

I was going to say I didn't remember this book at all, but reading the description on Memory Beta reminded me a little bit. Something about McCoy in the mess hall having a drink and commenting on it or on Spock's food? Not sure.
I think I liked it, but can't remember how it ended.
Also when trying to remember the cover i got it mixed up with Ghost Walker, just because of the mention of avians. Didn't realize until I went to look at the link to Ghost Walker above.

 

[Desert Kris]

I was going to say I didn't remember this book at all, but reading the description on Memory Beta reminded me a little bit. Something about McCoy in the mess hall having a drink and commenting on it or on Spock's food? Not sure.
I think I liked it, but can't remember how it ended.

There are a bunch of things that made it memorable for me. An exploration of McCoy's past, what he was like when he was younger. It was amazing to get a sense of his younger-self reacting and commenting on the life that his future-self chose. I finally had a video of TWoK to view at my leisure around the time, was really into it, and Dreams of the Raven captured some of the anxiety of that movie, with the Enterprise crippled and in a cat and mouse game with hostile ships. I also really enjoyed that they captured a klingon vessel, so it was like the greatest hits of movies II and III in a way. I loved the cover art even as it completely confounded me; trying to figure out when the story was set just by the cover art and taking it too literally just confused me at a younger age. The Ravens were creepy and chilling, but I read a review that dismissed them as B-movie monsters that eat brains, which makes me wonder if I would have a different reaction next time I read it.

 

[Christopher]

The Ravens were creepy and chilling, but I read a review that dismissed them as B-movie monsters that eat brains, which makes me wonder if I would have a different reaction next time I read it.

That's a strange objection, since TOS had plenty of monster stories. Best not to worry too much about reviews. Other people's opinions tend to be all over the place.

Anyway, I agree with the consensus that it's an impressive character study of McCoy. The details of the chronology and McCoy's biography don't mesh with what was later established, but of course whether a book "fits" has nothing to do with its worth as a story.

 

[Unimatrix Q]

"Dreams of the Raven" was a favourite of mine from the early Pocket books. It was CREEPY how the aliens fooled everyone the way they did!!

The similarity of what the Ravens did to their victims to Borg assimilation is also very interesting.

Trapping their mind inside a completely alien body to serve a queen and to find new victims.

 

[Christopher]

The similarity of what the Ravens did to their victims to Borg assimilation is also very interesting.

Trapping their mind inside a completely alien body to serve a queen and to find new victims.

I'd say the Ravens are somewhat different, because their victims are dead; the Ravens are just stealing and mimicking their consciousnesses. Although there is a point where the original consciousness is brought back to the surface, I see it more as a copy of the original murdered mind, the Raven being taken over by a dual personality, as it were, than as the person themselves being held captive.

To a degree, though, both are derived from earlier horror tropes, the fear of monsters that turn you into more of themselves and rob you of identity, like vampires, werewolves, or Romero zombies/ghouls.

 

[Unimatrix Q]

I'd say the Ravens are somewhat different, because their victims are dead; the Ravens are just stealing and mimicking their consciousnesses. Although there is a point where the original consciousness is brought back to the surface, I see it more as a copy of the original murdered mind, the Raven being taken over by a dual personality, as it were, than as the person themselves being held captive.

To a degree, though, both are derived from earlier horror tropes, the fear of monsters that turn you into more of themselves and rob you of identity, like vampires, werewolves, or Romero zombies/ghouls.

Maybe i'm remembering it wrong, but didn't they keep the brains of their victims inside their bodies and didn't Kirk considered them to be as the same persons they were, after they got freed from the influence of the queen, at the end of the novel?

 

[Christopher]

Maybe i'm remembering it wrong, but didn't they keep the brains of their victims inside their bodies and didn't Kirk considered them to be as the same persons they were, after they got freed from the influence of the queen, at the end of the novel?

IIRC, the original brains were dissolved, but their memories and personalities were copied in the Ravens' secondary brains. Once the primary brains were cut off and the secondary brains took over, the personalities of the victims took them over as if they were the same people, but I'd consider them copies of the originals -- the equivalent of, say, Ira Graves's personality taking over Data, or Rao Vantika's taking over Bashir, or Warlord Tieran's taking over Kes. The only difference is that in this case the audience wants the dead person's "ghost" to "possess" its host permanently and effectively live again. It's quite different from Borg assimilation, where the original person is still alive, just with their personality suppressed.

 

[Unimatrix Q]

To come back to my original question, did the bird creature(s) from "The Cage" ever appear in a Trek novel or comic?

If yes, what was established about them?

 

[Christopher]

To come back to my original question, did the bird creature(s) from "The Cage" ever appear in a Trek novel or comic?

As far as I know, that one's too obscure even for us to have tackled. I mean, what is there to go on? How would a reader even know we were referencing that particular avian species?

 

[Desert Kris]

That's a strange objection, since TOS had plenty of monster stories. Best not to worry too much about reviews. Other people's opinions tend to be all over the place.

Anyway, I agree with the consensus that it's an impressive character study of McCoy. The details of the chronology and McCoy's biography don't mesh with what was later established, but of course whether a book "fits" has nothing to do with its worth as a story.

I suppose if I flip my potential reservations toward the positive aspect, Dreams of the Raven will go down a storm. Since the time I read it, I've watched TOS in production order and read many TOS novels over the last several years (as well as comics); and I've really grown to like McCoy quite a lot, and will appreciate the focus on McCoy much more.