Q's return but Picard is different now.

[jackoverfull]

The dialogue doesn’t specify he’s a copy.

There is literally no mention of the word “copy” in the dialogue in Et in Arcadia Ego Part 2 in reference to Picard, the only use of the word copy in the script at all refers to Data’s existence in the quantum simulation. They use the word “transfer” to describe his consciousness moving from his human body to his synth body before his brain functions ceased, and the primary definition of transfer is movement from one location to another, not a copy.

There is nothing to quote that states he’s a copy, that isn’t how it’s presented in the show, at all.

further confirmation just arrived with discovery:

Spoiler: Disco

they used the same technique with Gray and he was clearly transferred, not copied.

 

[JoaquinSlowly]

That is how popular NuTrek is. A whole bunch of unhappy people can do nothing but whine and complain about it on forums and social media, but they're a tiny, powerless minority in comparison to the audience who, through sheer outrage, managed to scare Paramount enough that they rescheduled one of their flagship shows.

That was amazing for a show supposedly so despised.

All true. Discovery is also Paramount+’s number 1 show, and currently the number 2 TV spot on the iTunes chart (just behind HBO’s massive hit Succession), despite the current season not being available in the US.

As for Picard, and the OP of this thread, in addition to Q coming back to a changed/different Picard it’s also interesting to think of Jean-Luc’s reunion with Guinan in the upcoming season. With how much emphasis they put on their closeness in TNG, it could be fun to see if Guinan has any reaction to her good friend’s unique extension of life.

 

[Dar70]

Hey, remember how less than a month ago, the entirety of fucking Europe got so angry when Paramount told them that they'd have to wait until 2022 to see Season 4 of Discovery, and Paramount had to literally scramble to find a way so that they could watch it at a similar time as the US?

Also, remember how Kurtzman got a 25 million dollar extension to his contact, for five more years?

Also, remember the fact that we have four Star Trek shows currently airing, with a fifth soon to premiere?

That is how popular NuTrek is. A whole bunch of unhappy people can do nothing but whine and complain about it on forums and social media, but they're a tiny, powerless minority in comparison to the audience who, through sheer outrage, managed to scare Paramount enough that they rescheduled one of their flagship shows.

I have a friend who likes the Kelvin verse and Discovery He hatesTOS,TNG,DS9,VOY and Ent. Hated all Trek. What he does like is special effects filled movies and shows with non stop action.....just saying....

 

[jackoverfull]

I have a friend who likes the Kelvin verse and Discovery He hatesTOS,TNG,DS9,VOY and Ent. Hated all Trek. What he does like is special effects filled movies and shows with non stop action.....just saying....

tastes are tastes. My mother loves TOS and the kelvin movies but doesn’t like TNG, she tolerates Voyager and isn’t really interested in any of the new series.
I didn’t like the first two kelvin movies, especially the second, which is her favorite...

 

[Dar70]

The dialogue doesn’t specify he’s a copy.

There is literally no mention of the word “copy” in the dialogue in Et in Arcadia Ego Part 2 in reference to Picard, the only use of the word copy in the script at all refers to Data’s existence in the quantum simulation. They use the word “transfer” to describe his consciousness moving from his human body to his synth body before his brain functions ceased, and the primary definition of transfer is movement from one location to another, not a copy.

There is nothing to quote that states he’s a copy, that isn’t how it’s presented in the show, at all.

"Before your brain functions ceased, Dr. Soong and jerahti with help from Soji were able to Scan, map and transfer a complete neural image of your brain substrates"...

Kinda seems like a copy to me. An image is an image. When one looks in the mirror that image is not really them. Dropping my mic now....

 

[JoaquinSlowly]

"Before your brain functions ceased, Dr. Soong and jerahti with help from Soji were able to Scan, map and transfer a complete neural image of your brain substrates"...

Kinda seems like a copy to me. An image is an image. When one looks in the mirror that image is not really them. Dropping my mic now....

You know, that’s absolutely fair. That would be a gotcha/mic drop, if it were a line in isolation, but it’s also sandwiched between dialogue where Data explains that his own reconstructed consciousness was a simulation, and that this Picard was in fact, not a simulation, but was real.

If one wants to argue with the narratives they’re watching/reading/consuming, rather than enage with them in good faith, that’s fine. You don’t want to believe this is the real Picard, and ‪‪I can’t convince you otherwise, but that isn’t the way the story was actually told.

 

[jackoverfull]

Interesting. Well, is a copy less *real* than the original? Riker would disagree.

 

[Dar70]

if it were a line in isolation, but it’s also sandwiched between dialogue where Data explains that his own reconstructed consciousness was a simulation, and that this Picard was in fact, not a simulation, but was real.

Huh??

 

[JoaquinSlowly]

In the same scene Data tells Picard that he was a simulation, and Picard was not.

 

[fireproof78]

You know, that’s absolutely fair. That would be a gotcha/mic drop, if it were a line in isolation, but it’s also sandwiched between dialogue where Data explains that his own reconstructed consciousness was a simulation, and that this Picard was in fact, not a simulation, but was real.

If one wants to argue with the narratives they’re watching/reading/consuming, rather than enage with them in good faith, that’s fine. You don’t want to believe this is the real Picard, and ‪‪I can’t convince you otherwise, but that isn’t the way the story was actually told.

Pretty much sums up the contested point in a nutshell.

 

[Dar70]

In the same scene Data tells Picard that he was a simulation, and Picard was not.

Right. Data is a non physical simulation, picard is a copy downloaded into hardware.

 

[Kor]

But he's not a robot.

He's a bad robot.

Kor

 

[The Old Mixer]

Brain substrates are a physical part of the brain. They're saying that they custom-reconstructed his brain. That doesn't say anything about whether his consciousness/"soul" is real or Memorex.

 

[JoaquinSlowly]

Brain substrates are a physical part of the brain. They're saying that they custom-reconstructed his brain. That doesn't say anything about whether his consciousness/"soul" is real or Memorex.

Fair point!

 

[fireproof78]

Brain substrates are a physical part of the brain. They're saying that they custom-reconstructed his brain. That doesn't say anything about whether his consciousness/"soul" is real or Memorex.

Based upon Star Trek logic his soul is the real deal.

 

[NCC-73515]

"Before your brain functions ceased, Dr. Soong and jerahti with help from Soji were able to Scan, map and transfer a complete neural image of your brain substrates"...

Kinda seems like a copy to me. An image is an image. When one looks in the mirror that image is not really them. Dropping my mic now....

How many times was Picard disassembled, turned into a beam, and reassembled elsewhere?
Also, original Picard ceased to exist when he inhabited the computer as a digital P in TNG season 1

In the same scene Data tells Picard that he was a simulation, and Picard was not.

I thought the room was a simulation, but Data was his actual consciousness.

 

[fireproof78]

How many times was Picard disassembled, turned into a beam, and reassembled elsewhere?
Also, original Picard ceased to exist when he inhabited the computer as a digital P in TNG season 1

Original Picard ceased to exist when he shot himself in that time loop weirdness.

 

[JoaquinSlowly]

I thought the room was a simulation, but Data was his actual consciousness.

Yours is probably a more accurate interpretation.

Original Picard ceased to exist when he shot himself in that time loop weirdness.

It’s the Ship of Theseus, the original Picard died when that Nausicaan pierced his heart and it was replaced with a duritanium heart…or he didn’t.

 

[WarpFactorZ]

"Before your brain functions ceased, Dr. Soong and jerahti with help from Soji were able to Scan, map and transfer a complete neural image of your brain substrates"...

Kinda seems like a copy to me. An image is an image. When one looks in the mirror that image is not really them. Dropping my mic now....

There is a viewpoint that consciousness is a quantum phenomenon. In quantum mechanics, there is a no-cloning hypothesis, which says you cannot replicate a quantum state. So, no copies. As they say in Highlander... There can be only one.

 

[Dar70]

It’s the Ship of Theseus, the original Picard died when that Nausicaan pierced his heart and it was replaced with a duritanium heart…or he didn’t.

Meh. The brain is the only organ that has original cells throughout your life. none of us has all of our original parts. But nothing of the original Picard exists on a cellular level.