It's definitely something that is entirely dependent on personal experience. I have no place for God in my life. I was raised in the Methodist church, and while I actually liked the church and people and had fun in Sunday School, I never felt like I was benefiting in a religious sense. Eventually I just stopped going.
Apologies if this is too personal...but did you find you were not in a healthy community, as far as your church was concerned?l.
Nope, the community was fine. We actually had lots of people "convert" because they would visit our church with a friend and have a lot of fun. We were just a very laid back church.
While I enjoyed my time there, I never went because I wanted to. I went because I was young and my mom made me go. Once I got a job at 16 and started working on Sundays, I stopped going. I never went back. Simple as that.
Church/God/religion just never did anything for me. But even when I was in junior high I remember going through Confirmation and feeling like a hypocrite doing it. But when you're 12, you basically just do as you're told.
It was very different for me...I remember believing pretty deeply at that age, but it's only grown over time, not the other way around. The doubts that I've had, interestingly, have never been doubts in God--more in who speaks for Him. To me, I couldn't look at the beauty and intricacy of science and the universe and not see a creator there.
I think it may help that my parents were very open about things like that...while they were not always the best conversationalists on such topics, they were very good about getting me books on most all subjects--science and religious books both permitted and equally endorsed. I never felt like I was being forced to choose between one or the other, and have ended up now as an adult believing that there's a huge battle going on for absolutely no reason, on that subject (and a lot of others too).
I wouldn't say kids are necessarily going to be bored with or disruptive in church...you have to be observant of your child and see what it is they would prefer. I know in most larger Methodist churches (don't know about other denominations), you have the option of either bringing your kids to the service, or enrolling them in a class that's on their age level and is going to have lessons and activities that are age-appropriate.
In my own case, I chose very early to go to the grown-up service. The music was much more interesting to me than what went on in Sunday school, and since I was reading very early, I had no problem following along in the hymnal or Bible. Now, I didn't actually start paying attention to the sermon until I got older, so I just drew on the bulletin. But again, that was fine with my parents...they didn't push me to do any different. As long as I wasn't being disruptive, it wasn't an issue.
I suspect that had I been disruptive or disinterested, other accommodations would have been made (probably Sunday school). So I would say, don't make a blanket assumption about what's best for all children--pay attention to the individual child and figure out what suits them best.
Sunday School is usually just after the normal service in most churches where I come from, because the adults usually socialize during that time.
Sometimes it gets called Sunday School--other times, children's church. The church I go to has multiple services (4 total, always 2 simultaneously) and multiple Sunday School blocks, so it's possible to have your kids in something concurrently with any of the main services.
Apologies if this is too personal...but did you find you were not in a healthy community, as far as your church was concerned?
Nerys, I hope you won't mind if I offer an answer to this as well. I'm a former Christian, raised Presbyterian, and the church in which I grew up has always (to my knowledge) had a good congregation. Still does.
I started having doubts about theology in high school, and also about whether there was a "correct" version of Christianity. How could I be sure that the Presbyterian and Methodist interpretation was correct and not, say, Baptist or Roman Catholic? It bothered me that I felt I couldn't turn to anyone in my church for a good answer to that question, or that they would be willing to ultimately suggest to me that perhaps Christianity wasn't suited to me.
I have found in that regard that no one denomination has got it all right--AND I have 100% certainty that I myself haven't got it all right.
However, I believe there's a lot to be gained in the striving, if that makes sense.
So I would've answered your question in a way that no doubt would've hacked off a lot of hardliners...I would've told you that no, there is no 100% perfect church out there. That said, I think there tend to be a set of general core principles that are agreed on by most major denominations, and those TEND to be what I'd call the really "big" issues as opposed to the quibbling little details that start fights and wars for no reason (you'll see this theme a whole lot through my post, my disgust with fighting over nothing.). My own way of thinking seems to have been shaped by three different denominations--Methodist, Orthodox, and Christian Reformed. I have found the Methodist church (the one I personally go to, anyway) to be the most tolerant of diversity of opinion...nobody gives you a doctrinal test to be there.
There was another issue, one which I've found far more troubling. It's something I've seen in TNZ, and I will admit that it is something that suggests to me that Christianity has become far too concerned with some of the myths and legends connected to its history, and not some of the core values - the ones that are genuinely good, like loving your neighbor and living a good life.
And I don't entirely disagree with you. As I said, I find it very distressing that there's so much bickering over stupid stuff that frankly I think holds little importance when it comes to one's salvation. And ironically, the conduct in said battles tends to abrogate those principles quite severely.
I nearly left the church over that. In the end, though, I made the decision that it made no sense for me to run from the fight--and that perhaps even my purpose was to try and combat it where I see it, and try to do my little bit to repair the damage where I come across it.
It's been my experience that, particularly among the more fundamentalist sects, Christianity isn't about having a genuine relationship with God, about obeying His laws or accepting Jesus. What
really matters is that God is (supposedly) perfect, and you're not. It doesn't matter how much good you do in life, you can never be as good as He is. So if God decides when you're standing at His throne that you didn't do enough to earn heaven (whatever that is), He's fully justified in sending you to hell. I've heard from more than one Christian that, from God's perspective, we're not even worth saving anyway! (and yet they also describe this God as being the epitome of mercy and justice?
)
About our worth when it comes to salvation...I would say that IF you consider the way we think, act, and behave, that no, we would not be worthy of salvation.
HOWEVER...as I understand it, God considers us to have an
inherent value in that He created us out of an act of love, hence what I believe is His desire to reclaim as many of us as possible. So while no, I do not think we will ever be as good as Him in this life, our relationship with Him can and does bridge the gap.
This is of course an extreme position, and not every Christian holds it. That's a very good thing.
But it's seemed to me like it is becoming more and more common, and it has no potential to help Christians find the relationship with God that most of them seek. It will only harm the faith, and in particular the younger and more impressionable members. I believe it's based to some degree on human fear, and not the messages and lessons in the Bible.
Yet I don't believe out of fear, as hard as this might be for some to believe. I truly do desire that relationship. I have experienced things that I can never convey to any other person and I know that...but they are things that have affirmed that relationship and that have become a core part of me. I just wish you could've been with me to actually feel what I felt, see what I saw, and experience it...but I know such things can really only be known to those who knew them firsthand.
I succumbed to that toxic belief for awhile, and finally realized that it was considerably dangerous. That, combined with my other doubts, led me to quietly walk away and start over. To this day I still feel it was the right choice for me, but I wouldn't say I can speak for anyone else who might be contemplating the idea of leaving their religion. I think this sort of choice is left to the individual. I don't really like to label myself, so I just say I'm religiously neutral. And I still try to help my old church out on occasion with some of our programs, like helping the homeless during the winter months. We give them food and a warm place to sleep, and we rotate the program with some other local churches.
And if anyone in the church has done you harm or any unkindness...I truly apologize and I wish I could undo it. I have been there and I understand exactly how badly it burns.
I am very glad, though, for the spirit of service such work shows. That's a wonderful thing and much too rare in our society. (Plus...I think that kind of grassroots work is the most effective we can possibly do.)
