Prophecies are lame
- Thread starter RoJoHen
- Start date
In order for that to work, you have to set it up so that the character is Chosen yet also replaceable. They can fail, and someone else would take their place as the Chosen One.
That, of course, perfectly describes the Slayer; it also fits nicely into Babylon 5's "Comes the Inquisitor" with regards to Delenn's role in events.
Not as such, but the show does have a strong choice-versus-fate theme.
Although, prophecies would fit right in with the "Whatever happened, happened" rules of time travel established on that show.
The show should also feature the main characters trying to penetrate a shadowy conspiracy involving corporations, the government, and the military - but it turns out there's no conspiracy and the main characters were just dopes.
I liked that about Angel: the team falls apart and several character suffer because Wesley buys into a prophecy that turns out to be a fake (although a true prophecy turns out to be behind the forger's motivation). Other prophecies are misinterpreted... and overall, brings greater doubt on the whole Shanshu thing, which I always thought was pointless. Angel fights for atonement; dangling a reward before the hero undermines his supposed selflessness.
Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
But it brings us to that great moment when Angel "signs away" the Shanshu prophecy in the finale, even if it doesn't make total sense.
See below...
It makes sense, because while he would have accepted such a 'gift' his signing away means he was underestimated, he didn't fight for the atonement, he fought becuase there was no one else to do it. In the end, he didn't care whether or not he got to be Human, just that he rid the world of a little more evil. Thus bringing is selflessness into play.
I meant the signing away of the prophecy itself, hence the quotation marks. The what and why was great, the how less so, though it's not really all that important.
One great use of prophecy is for tragedy, in that something inescapable is going to happen and nobody can prevent it - they can, like Oedipus, try and fail. I would like to see more of these than the now somewhat overused chosen one messianic prophecy that's been commonplace in sci-fi/fantasy movies and TV.
I'd go with this - it's all in the solidity of the backstory and world-building; that is, where did the prophecy come from, what's the system of understanding the universe that developed the system out of which it came, how does the idea of prophecy fit into the fictional world? What's lame is when a prophecy or Chosen One is invoked in a shallow way with no developed mythology as a crutch for not wanting to actually write an interesting hero(*coughAvatarcough*). I don't divide it up by genre, though, because too many stories don't fall neatly into one or the other category - Dune being a good example of mixing mystical and scientific elements.
In "Dune", it was suggested that the Missonaria Protectiva deliberately sowed the seeds of prophetic superstition to allow the Bene Gesserit to take advantage.
For the best use of prophecy outside SF&F, see "I, Claudius".
For the best use of prophecy outside SF&F, see "I, Claudius".
I really liked the use of prophecy in the new Doctor Who episode "Fires of Pompeii," where he and Donna thought they were going to prevent it from happening but in the end realized that it not only had to happen (to save the world) but that they were the ones that caused it.
Hey, remember that prophecy in Star Wars about the kid that would bring balance to the force? DIDN'T WORK OUT THAT WELL HUH?
It turned out alright in the end (the prophecy came true in Return of the Jedi).
Fascinating conversation. I've been working on a story idea myself that initially grew out of an idea I had for a prophecy. It's really interesting to see not only people's opinions on prophecies in general, but also the saturation level with this story element.
I'm curious, though. For those who have claimed that a prophecy is "lazy" writing, why do you say so? Exactly in what way do you find a prophecy to be something akin to a cop out or shoddy writing in general? Why place such a stigma on the concept (I don't doubt the legitimacy of the opinions, I'm just curious as to the rationale)?
I'm curious, though. For those who have claimed that a prophecy is "lazy" writing, why do you say so? Exactly in what way do you find a prophecy to be something akin to a cop out or shoddy writing in general? Why place such a stigma on the concept (I don't doubt the legitimacy of the opinions, I'm just curious as to the rationale)?
It can be lazy. If you introduce a prophecy in the beginning of the story and simple have the characters carry it out, that's lazy. However, it also depends on how specific the prophecy is and how much wiggle room it has within the story. Can it be interpreted different ways (like in nuBSG with the "dying leader)? Can the prophecy be misleading? I thought the Prophecy in the Season 1 finale of Buffy (titled "Prophecy Girl") was pretty funny. It said, "The Master will kill the Slayer." Well, guess what, he did. Buffy was killed. But then a minute later she was brought back to life using CPR!
I keep going back to the new "Alice in Wonderland" movie. The prophecy was introduced in such a way that it completely gave away the ending about 90 minutes before the movie actually ended. The rest of the movie in between had no meaning because I knew exactly where it was leading. They could have easily told the exact same story WITHOUT the prophecy, and I would have been a lot more interested the outcome.
^ I haven't seen the new Alice so unfortunately I don't know the context of the film. My question, though, is if the prophecy in that story was so obvious, why was it included? I assume that it's there purposefully. So what possible purpose could it serve the film (and the story)?
I guess I'm stuck on the difference between "lazy" writing and just plain "unappealing" writing when it comes to prophecies (I've never thought of prophecies, in general, as a poor storytelling device though this thread has certainly gotten me thinking). Is it just that writers misuse prophecies? If so, what is the best possible use for them?
Or, in other words, what's the objection to prophecies in general, rather than specific ways they are used in specific stories?
For example:
I guess I'm stuck on the difference between "lazy" writing and just plain "unappealing" writing when it comes to prophecies (I've never thought of prophecies, in general, as a poor storytelling device though this thread has certainly gotten me thinking). Is it just that writers misuse prophecies? If so, what is the best possible use for them?
Or, in other words, what's the objection to prophecies in general, rather than specific ways they are used in specific stories?
For example:
The "new"(ish) Tolkien book, The Children of Hurin features a "prophecy" (in the form of a curse) in which we see this play out. I thought the book was terrible -- but not because of the prophecy in principle, but rather the manner with which Turin was portrayed and went about his life. In that sense, the problem isn't with the use of a prophecy, but the manner with which it is portrayed.
I think I've just been seeing a lot of poorly used prophecies in a lot of things lately. That, and overuse. I feel like almost every scifi/fantasy show that comes out these days has a hero with a "destiny."
Prophecies aren't bad as a rule, but a writer needs to be able to use them well.
The new "Alice" goes something like this: There is a scroll that tells about everything that has and ever will happen in Wonderland. On a certain day, the scroll says that Alice is destined to kill the Jabberwocky (it even has a picture of her with a sword about to cut off its head). Because the scroll says this, the white rabbit goes to the real to get Alice and leads her into the rabbit hole. Antics ensue in Wonderland, and then she kills the Jabberwocky. The end.
Alice could have just as easily tumbled down the rabbit hole on accident and accomplished the same goal without the prophecy ever being included, and the story would have been much less predictable.
Prophecies aren't bad as a rule, but a writer needs to be able to use them well.
The new "Alice" goes something like this: There is a scroll that tells about everything that has and ever will happen in Wonderland. On a certain day, the scroll says that Alice is destined to kill the Jabberwocky (it even has a picture of her with a sword about to cut off its head). Because the scroll says this, the white rabbit goes to the real to get Alice and leads her into the rabbit hole. Antics ensue in Wonderland, and then she kills the Jabberwocky. The end.
Alice could have just as easily tumbled down the rabbit hole on accident and accomplished the same goal without the prophecy ever being included, and the story would have been much less predictable.
It worked out fine, they just had the wrong kid.
Generally speaking, I'd consider the use of a prophecy lazy writing when it's only (or mostly) used to create (extra) excitement with the audience that doesn't stem from the story or its characters.
Put in simpler words: it's not so much the prophecy but how people react to it/deal with it. Do they accept it or fight it? Does it change them or their beliefs? Stuff like that. So new BSG had great potential in that regard, which I feel wasn't well used, but that's another story.
There are no absolutes in this, of course.
Put in simpler words: it's not so much the prophecy but how people react to it/deal with it. Do they accept it or fight it? Does it change them or their beliefs? Stuff like that. So new BSG had great potential in that regard, which I feel wasn't well used, but that's another story.
There are no absolutes in this, of course.
You think Luke was this Chosen One? I always figured it referred to Anakin: first he destroys the institutions of the Light Side, then (a few decades later) the Dark Side, thus bringing about balance--just not the kind of balance, or the timeframe, that the Masters thought it would be. I hope so, anyway--as boring as prophecy is, at least this would be a twist; as applied to Luke, wouldn't it just be a straightforward Good defeats Evil kind of thing?
Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
