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Production Order Group Viewing 2018

I have a real soft spot for Savage Curtain. The second half does feel rushed and badly scripted with no real thought put into most of the villains. I would have liked it more if it had been a two parter with a few more of the crew on team good.
 
If Chekov was on the good side, would he get Stalin as his good historic figure or one of the czars? :rommie:
If Kirk was Canadian, who in the hell would he get?:shrug:
 
Being from Wales I'm sure you know the BBC ordering quite well, Mytran!
JB
Actually I'm from Sussex. I only work in Wales! :cool:
OK, I also live here now. Marrying a Welsh girl kinda has that consequence :guffaw:

I have a real soft spot for Savage Curtain. The second half does feel rushed and badly scripted with no real thought put into most of the villains. I would have liked it more if it had been a two parter with a few more of the crew on team good.
There is the potential for a much larger scope there.
But having a not-fully-developed story seems par for the course at this end of the series :sigh:
 
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The Savage Curtain...


Okay, I know nothing about him. Does Genghis Khan really deserve to be called evil? And if so, is he really one of the two most evil humans ever so that he deserves to be on Team Evil here?

Go watch The Conqueror starring John Wayne, then you'll know....pilgrim.

No really, the summary paragraphs are enough https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genghis_Khan

It depends on the individual, but genocidal conqueror would just probably seem evil to Captain Kirk.


Surak and Lincoln aren't fighters and seem strange choices to give Team Good if they are supposed to be fighting.

Then too, the sides aren't equal. Shouldn't you make the two sides equally powerful? Team Evil does have a Klingon, but I'm not sure that the smooth-headed Klingons are as tough as the bumpy-headed ones will be. Team Good has two Vulcans, but Lincoln is an older man and not really able to fight like the others. It's a weird unbalanced set of teams.

This is part of the fact that the good side doesn't think like that, the very nature of it is the good side has a pacifist on it's tag team and evil guys are all dangerous as hell. Good is dumb.

Your post made me think of something I never did before, so what if Green and Khan are Kirk's two picks for evil then are Kahless and Zora Spock's choices? Why assume Kirk's mind is the only one read. Could that how it broke down or was Kahless a combined choice? Scotty is the one that declares them all "notoriously evil" was he a part of the selection even though he wasn't invited to the party?

It's fascinating that 53 year old show that I've seen more times than I can count can still make me think of new avenues of thought.


If Chekov was on the good side, would he get Stalin as his good historic figure or one of the czars? :rommie:

Good question, and I'm going to say Lenin. While Stalin was in charge of The Great Patriotic War, after his death they didn't want to keep him as a hero and Destalinized a lot. But Chekov was definitely written as a communist Russian, IMO. I always wondered why he yelled "Cossacks!" as an insult, I'm still not sure but most of the Cossacks stayed on the side of the Czar and the subsequent anti communist White Russian against the Kohms..... er Communists and Communist Checkov would use that then as an insult. It's almost like if I wanted to insult someone and yelled "Tribal Horseman!" it's a strange insult out of context, also he mentions Leningrad, so he's big into communist Russia, even if it isn't the USSR anymore.


[/QUOTE] If Kirk was Canadian, who in the hell would he get?:shrug:[/QUOTE] Rush!



My last comment, in the beginning Bones is really adamant that there's nothing to see here right before they get scanned, he also didn't believe the Horta was possible, either. Of course, everyone is caught off guard by shape-shifting aliens every time, too.

Do you think the Horta and Excaliban could be compatible?
 
But its my specialty to add technobabble to TOS technoterms. :vulcan:
In a rare instance of TOS technobabble; Kirk explains how the Transporter works (or at least in a way he thinks would make sense to a 19th century man)
It does sound like Kirk's explanation of the transporter to Lincoln encroaches on technobabble, but it could be just a series of technoterms which I was able to technobabble expand upon. :shifty:
https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/those-mysterious-transporter-controls.299974/page-3#post-13034851
 
But-but-but TOS has no technobabble. Technoterms but never seconds-eating filler. You'd be more likely to witness Steven Seagal in a fair, unrigged evenly-matched fight than see 1701's crew babble in such a way.
Ah, this is a branding issue it seems. Perhaps it should be termed TOS-techno "babble" instead?
All this really means is that TOS had a far better approach to technical talk than its successors :techman:

It does sound like Kirk's explanation of the transporter to Lincoln encroaches on technobabble, but it could be just a series of technoterms which I was able to technobabble expand upon. :shifty:
https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/those-mysterious-transporter-controls.299974/page-3#post-13034851
Ah, now I remember how that thread ended... :whistle:
 
ALL OUR YESTERDAYS

Yet another episode with a ridiculously short deadline for our heroes. Requiem For Methuselah was just two episodes back and had 4 hours on the ticking clock. Now it's a mere 3½ hours. If this keeps, by up Season 4 they'll have mere minutes to save the universe each week! :devil:

This episode is often heralded as a better season finale than Turnabout Intruder but that doesn't mean it's actually a good one. Aside from the silliness mentioned above, this has even less presence of the regular cast than RFM and not even one scene on the bridge! And the story itself...is basically a series of subplots, none of which are allowed the time to be explored to their fullest potential due to the extreme time limitation.
  • Kirk’s adventure is young boy’s dream full of sword fighting, accusations, blackmail, escapes: A real wild ride! But ultimately ineffectual and he gets back rather easily. It's odd to see such Earthlike fashions on an alien world, but Return Of The Archons got away with it (although then the clothes were mere window dressing on an otherwise very strange society).
  • Spock and McCoy face a little more peril due to the climate and the misinformation they receive from Zarabeth. However, the accelerated deadline impacts the credibility of this story more than any of the others as Spock goes from disciplined Starfleet officer to a flirting romeo munching on animal flesh, determined to stay in the past to a reformed man in just a couple of hours! Honestly, this is more of a rollercoaster than the “falling in love” plot from RFM but worse because it happens to Spock.
    Still, at least McCoy should be happy that the first officer now understands love. :D
Both mini adventures end rather anti climatically, since all anyone ever needed to try doing was just walk back the way they came. :vulcan:

The third plot in this episode is about the population of Sarpedian using time travel to escape into the past, something Mr Atoz is responsible for managing...which would make him a sort of Guardian of Forever, I suppose :rolleyes:
We learn from Zarabeth that this is Atavachron is really old tech! I wonder what having such casual access to a time machine would do to a society over the course of several millenia? Never mind, no time to explore that concept. :brickwall:

In summary we have a series of escapades which utilise elements from from various earlier episodes, a couple from this very season! (I was reminded of The Cloud Minders with the "boys on vacation" aspect)


OTHER THOUGHTS
  • Why did they wait until just 3½ hours were left before investigating the planet? Kirk mentions that they came because they detected that the population has suddenly vanished - were they just going to sit back and let Sarpedion be destroyed by the supernova if the mystery didn’t occur?
  • Why oh WHY are just Kirk, Spock and McCoy beaming down? This is an urgent, time sensitive mission – get some more boots on the ground!
  • Also, their lack of numbers and sheer impulsiveness almost dooms the mission and costs them their lives!
  • The library uses CDs! Very futuristic
  • The bit of business with the multiple Mr Atozes is quite good and raises all kind of possibilities about the existing mystery! However, the answer is rather mundane - they're just mindless clones and not even dangerous ones. :thumbdown:
  • The Atavachron looks really similar to Gary Seven’s computer, that’s how advanced it is! :guffaw:
  • Wandering through the wrong door while a viewing disc is in the slot catapults the crew into different time zones. I can’t believe this never happened with any of the other Sarpedians! Are there really no safety features with this tech? Not even a little gate?
  • Since we don't see any impact of several billion time travellers in Sarpedian's past I think it's safe to assume that the Atavachron is using the "predestination paradox" model of time travel
  • The time travel method that the Sarpedians use has some very odd side effects. The need to be “prepared” is one, but the way that it causes Spock to regress to a native Vulcan of 5000 years ago is way too full of spooky woo for my liking.
  • I’m surprised that Spock isn’t more affected by the cold, given that Vulcan is such a hot world
  • Also, Vulcan is millions of light years away, apparently! Does Sarpedian perhaps have very short years and Spock was just converting into the local lingo?
  • I love how Kirk calling McCoy “Bones” is what gets him into trouble:guffaw:
  • Zarabeth’s indoors clothes are so skimpy compared to her outside ones, it looks like she is stripping down to her underwear! This is still an ice age, ya know!
  • Hey, did Spock and Zarabeth have sex?
  • And was McCoy just in the next room? No wonder he comes back in furtively.

A final thought...at one point Kirk is knocked and out nearly pushed through the time portal by Mr Atoz. Does that mean he was "prepared" first? It seems likely.
Does that mean he'll die in the next few hours if he doesn't leave the current time period?
Hey, this really could be the final episode of the series after all! :eek:
 
There are a lot of hokey, illogical elements to the plot. On a rewatch, despite being a badsass, Zarabeth was a lot more girly than I remembered. The ice story was the most interesting and I would have liked it if this story was better developed. Again, this is another story where I would have liked more of the crew to be in the landing party.

Admittedly, Spock and McCoy butting heads is always fun, but a dynamic more like Miri with a more convoluted method of returning to Sarpeidon could have worked too. Spock could have unravelled more slowly, we could have learned more about Zarabeth and the locality, and leaving her behind could have been more tragic.

As a kid, that image of Zarabeth wandering off alone in the snow made me cry and stayed with me for weeks. Mind you, I also cried when Worzel Gummidge picked Aunt Sally over Dolly Clothespeg so...
 
Att. Poltargyst :

Now that this viewing exercise is nearly over, I thought that I might make yet another suggestion regarding your ‘Alien watch!’ listing, going way back at the beginning to “The Cage”. I’m thinking about the serving girls, whip wielding servant, and quartet of musicians in the Orion illusion. According to the script, a serving girl has a color resembling Spock’s (who was then supposed to be of reddish hue]. While only the musicians made it into the final cut (dimly seen in the background) I think the non-green Orions in that scene should count as an alien species, remarkably human looking (though with a spray on tan, and unusually long fake eyelashes for the girls).
0f1543ea55916be04eeee695e5cf36ae.jpg
 
All Our Yesterdays

Not to be confused with "Tomorrow Is Yesterday" or "Return to Tomorrow."

I always thought favorably of this episode, but watching it this time I liked it more than before.

Let me get my twin complaints out of the way of 1) we really know the exact MINUTE this star is going to nova coupled with 2) do we really need this 3 hour deadline to build the drama? Maybe we do. It certainly builds the drama at the end. And while I'm at it, does it really make sense that everything we see could happen in just three hours? From Kirk miraculously meeting someone from the future to McCoy recovering from extreme exposure so quickly, it's enough to make one believe in some universal intelligence looking out for our heroes.

Atoz. Very clever name. And I never caught it until relatively recently that that's what his name is.

To build the mystery, somehow all of these not-so-helpful Atozes fail to actually come out and say everyone disappeared through time travel, acting like it's so well known on this planet that you wouldn't have to say it.

Atoz hands Kirk a DVD, then goes off to work on Gary 7's computer.

Once again, Kirk benefits from Starfleet's emphasis on teaching fencing at the Academy.

The redhead Kirk meets reminds me of Beverly Crusher. I have no idea what language she's speaking.

From the script:

WENCH: Oh, thank you, man. I thought I'd be limbered sure when that gull caught me cutting his purse.
WENCH: Oh, I took you to be an angler, but you're none of us, are ya? Well, you're a bully fine coe for all of that. What a handsome dish ya served them, the coxcombs.

Okay then.

McCoy: "I was looking over some material about their Ice Age. " Dumbass. When you find yourself in a strange library, look at material about TROPICAL PARADISES.

The mysterious stranger takes of his enormous cloak and...hey! It's a girl!

And so Beverly, who is the reason Kirk is in this mess in the first place, and who minutes earlier was willing to go anywhere with him, now condemns Kirk for a witch.

I wonder how Kirk would get along with Beverly Crusher. Pretty well probably.

Whoa, Zarabeth is really ho....um...ahem. Zarabeth through no fault of her own is condemned to a bleak existence because of some MAN. It's got to be horrible, and I would consider suicide. But does Zarabeth roll over and die? No she does not. She exhibits tremendous strength, courage, determination, and lives her life as she has to day by day. She is not embittered by her experiences but remains a good person. Let us use Zarabeth's example to look at the women in our own lives and recognize the extreme pressures that society places upon them. Let us take this opportunity to recognize the strength, courage, and determination in the women around us. Zarabeth is a true model of the power of women who calls to us to honor women in our lives and everywhere.

(Also, Zarabeth is really hot in that skimpy outfit. :))

Is there still the open portal somewhere that Zarabeth came through? Could Zarabeth find it and go back even if it meant dying in the future?

Strange how similar the past that Kirk went to is to Earth's past.

I find these arguments between Spock and McCoy to be extremely compelling. McCoy's being a dick again, Spock must be in command. And yet, McCoy's right this time. Very perceptive, he sizes up what's happening with Spock and between Spock and Zarabeth and uses that famous biting wit of his to reach Spock. And then there's this:

McCoy: "You listen to me, you pointed-eared Vulcan."
Spock: "I don't like that. I don't think I ever did, and now I'm sure."

WOW. All those times McCoy referred to his pointed ears, his green blood, his weird Vulcan anatomy, Spock was hurt by it. What a revelation that is. I just think the acting of De and Leonard here is outstanding, the dialog so on point. What a great little scene here. Just great stuff.

I do think McCoy was a bit hard on Zarabeth. I'm sure she was sincere. She was prepared for the past, she assumed they were too.

And what a great job of acting Mariette Hartley puts in. She really sells someone who's been extremely lonely for so long, so happy to finally have someone to be with only to have to accept them leaving again. What a cruel tease. You can see her heart breaking. Wow again.

Okay, you're that Judge guy. You can pick any time in your planet's history in which to live out your life. Why do you pick that backward time?


Atoz and his replicas are woefully unable to handle Kirk Fu. Don't feel bad, Atoz. Kirk Fu has felled much tougher men.

Atoz knocks Kirk out and he revives just in time to avoid being sent back in time. Since Atoz was trying to send Kirk back in time, does that mean that he "prepared" Kirk for that time? Is Kirk going to die in a few hours because his body can no longer survive in the present?

I never understood anyway why any sort of physiological change should be necessary. It doesn't come up in any other time travel story.

Spock: "Yes, it happened. But that was five thousand years ago. And she is dead now. Dead and buried. Long ago. " :wah::wah::wah::wah::wah: Poor Zarabeth. I wonder how she died.

Say we knew for a fact that the world was going to end in 2020. Say we have time travel technology and you can go back in time to live out your life in any previous era of Earth's history. Where would you go? It's fun to think about going back to some ancient or medieval setting, but really, I wouldn't want to go back too far. In fact, if there's no issue with two of me existing at the same time, I'd probably just go back to the 1970's. I like modern conveniences. Plus I want penicillin to exist so they don't have to cut off a limb if it gets infected.

I like this one. Very compelling drama.

Alien Watch! Sarpeidonians

Season 1
Talosians
That big ugly Rigellian guy Pike fought in illusion
Vina as an Orion girl in illusion
Vina as an Orion's backup band of assorted aliens
Glimpse of other aliens captured by Talosians
Ron Howard's brother
That dog from Enemy Within
Salt monster
That hand plant...Gertrude
Spock (duh)
Charlie's parents (Thasians)*
Romulans!
(Ruk)
Miri's planet kids (bonk bonk)
Giant ape creatures of Taurus II
Shore Leave Caretaker guy
Trelaine and his folks*
Gorn
Metrons*
The Lazerii
The remarkably human-looking aliens of Beta 3. (RotA)
The remarkably human-looking aliens of Emineminar VII (AToA)
The Triffids of Omicron Ceti III (TSoP)
The refreshingly non-human-looking Horta
Organians*
Klingons! (Remarkably human looking).
(The Guardian of Forever)
Flying pancakes

Season 2
Sylvia and Korob
The Companion
The remarkably human looking (though tall) Cappellans.
Native Pollux IV-ians (Apollo and his gang)
Full-blooded Vulcans
The remarkably human looking citizens of Argelius II (WitF)
Redjac
The People of Vaal (Gamma Triangulians)
Crew of the ISS Enterprise
The remarkably human-looking** (except for maybe a dot on their forehead) Halkans
Tribbles (not at all human looking)
The remarkably human-looking citizens of...892-VI. Is that what they call this planet? (The Roman one.)
Tall guys, short guys, Andorians, Tellurites, purple lady, Orion made up like an Andorian. (JtB)
The remarkably human-looking people of Neural. (APLW)
The awesome Mugato!
Shahna, Lars, Tamoon, Kloog, Thrallmaster Galt, and the Providers
The Cloud from the Tycho system.
The BIG FREAKIN' AMEBA!!!!!
The remarkably human-looking Iotians. (Gangsters)
Kelvans! Who really look like big, cool squids but choose to look remarkably human.
Sargon and the gang of not-quite-omnipotent aliens.
Remarkably human looking Zeons of Zeon and Ekosians of Ekos. (PoF)
The remarkably human looking Yangs and Coms of Omega IV.
Isis! Who looks remarkably like a cat until she wants to look remarkably human.

Season 3
The decidedly non-human looking Melkotians.
The remarkably human-looking Elasians and not so human looking Troyians.
Lawyer in a muumuu. Remarkably human-looking but maybe that was on purpose.
The remarkably human-looking Morgs and Eymorgs of Sigma Draconis.
Kollos the Medusan
Gem the Empath (remarkably human looking)
Vians (the OTHER bumpy-headed aliens)
Tholians!
The remarkably human-looking Fabrini of Yo Mama.
The malicious swirly ball of hate (DotD)
The remarkably human-looking Platonians who are douchebags except for Alexander
The fast, but still remarkably human looking Scalosians.
The remarkably human-looking image of Losira.
The Cheron boys, Bele and Lokai
Lackey's of Garth's some of whom are more human-looking than others.
Way too many remarkably human-looking Gideons.
Discorporated Zetarians and some recently departed Federation scholars and researchers of various races.
The remarkably human-looking Ardanians and their amazing midriffs.
Sevrin is Tiburonian, Rad is Catullan. If the others are aliens, they are remarkably human-looking.
Yarnek is Excalbian, Zora is a Tiburonian.
The remarkably human-looking Sarpeidonians.

*Alien Watch sublist: omnipotent aliens!
**By request
 
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Att. Poltargyst :

Now that this viewing exercise is nearly over, I thought that I might make yet another suggestion regarding your ‘Alien watch!’ listing, going way back at the beginning to “The Cage”. I’m thinking about the serving girls, whip wielding servant, and quartet of musicians in the Orion illusion. According to the script, a serving girl has a color resembling Spock’s (who was then supposed to be of reddish hue]. While only the musicians made it into the final cut (dimly seen in the background) I think the non-green Orions in that scene should count as an alien species, remarkably human looking (though with a spray on tan, and unusually long fake eyelashes for the girls).
0f1543ea55916be04eeee695e5cf36ae.jpg
Excellent suggestion. I will edit accordingly.
 
Vina as an Orion's backup band of assorted aliens
Thanks! But it should be "Vina's backup band of aliens (remarkably human looking)", who all appear to be the same species. Your description sounds more like Jabba the Hutt's ensemble. :)
 
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