Prey

[GeekUSACarl]

So, im on Season 4, the episode Prey. So far my view of the show since my prior episode post have remained relatively unchanged. I underestimated the show in my younger years and it's much better than I remember.

I still get stuck on a couple Janeway moments, but not so much that I cannot chalk it up to diversity of character. But in Prey, I seem to be particularly at odds with her logic in handling Seven's decision to beam the 8472 creature onto the Hirojan ship.

I understand and agree with Janeway's point, but once the cat was outta the bag so to speak, I have no idea what Seven was supposed to do other than what she did. I've never served in the military and I'm not a scientist but it seems, the ship was getting the shit kicked outta 'er, and 8472 wasn't under control...

I dunno beaming it onto the Hirojan ship seemed the only viable option to me. It seems the punishment unto Seven was pretty severe

 

[cosmic mouse]

I underestimated the show in my younger years and it's much better than I remember.

first...


secondly, I mostly agree with you, mainly since I likely would have done what Seven did in that situation, but I can understand Janeway's stance. Seven was also acting partly from logic/objective view, but also from a past, subjective experience with 8472 as well, which may have had an effect on her decision. I honestly, I felt a little bad for 8472 a bit at the conclusion, so it's not really a simple issue in most ways... lots of grey area.

 

[DonIago]

I guess one of the problems with serving in a quasi-military hierarchy is that if your commanding officer decides she's willing to see her ship destroyed on principle, you're stuck with it unless you either take matters into your own hands or arrange to have the CO relieved lawfully. Of course, in this case there wasn't time to pursue the latter option.

One wonders whether Janeway consulted with anyone else before rendering her decision, because I suspect Chakotay might have argued with her about it.

 

[Refuge]

So, im on Season 4, the episode Prey. So far my view of the show since my prior episode post have remained relatively unchanged. I underestimated the show in my younger years and it's much better than I remember.

I still get stuck on a couple Janeway moments, but not so much that I cannot chalk it up to diversity of character. But in Prey, I seem to be particularly at odds with her logic in handling Seven's decision to beam the 8472 creature onto the Hirojan ship.

I understand and agree with Janeway's point, but once the cat was outta the bag so to speak, I have no idea what Seven was supposed to do other than what she did. I've never served in the military and I'm not a scientist but it seems, the ship was getting the shit kicked outta 'er, and 8472 wasn't under control...

I dunno beaming it onto the Hirojan ship seemed the only viable option to me. It seems the punishment unto Seven was pretty severe

Full disclosure, Prey is my least favourite episode specifically because of my sympathies toward the lone Species 8472 just trying to get away from first the Hirogen and then the Borg, as originally represented by the Collective, and then Seven. IT was the actual victim in the whole scenario. I'm sure if it looked like a cuddly rabbit or a pretty human being it would've been less reviled.

Seven broke the chain of command and carried over with her a prejudice to 8472, she always wanted to sacrifice it. Note that in Flesh and Blood Seven is still prejudiced. Janeway's fault was in giving someone like Seven too much control in the situation so that she in the end turned another already abused being back to its tormentors. Why were there no other contingency plans? One of those clever counter tricks that always present themselves when someone or something important is in danger?

I felt Seven just did not 'get it'. She was given a chance to find her humanity by a resentful and fearful crew and yet she couldn't exercise that same compassion herself. She answered Janeway back by making it about her individuality. To a point that must have been true, Seven was like a rebellious teenager with Janeway.

 

[GeekUSACarl]

Full disclosure, Prey is my least favourite episode specifically because of my sympathies toward the lone Species 8472 just trying to get away from first the Hirogen and then the Borg, as originally represented by the Collective, and then Seven. IT was the actual victim in the whole scenario. I'm sure if it looked like a cuddly rabbit or a pretty human being it would've been less reviled.

Seven broke the chain of command and carried over with her a prejudice to 8472, she always wanted to sacrifice it. Note that in Flesh and Blood Seven is still prejudiced. Janeway's fault was in giving someone like Seven too much control in the situation so that she in the end turned another already abused being back to its tormentors. Why were there no other contingency plans? One of those clever counter tricks that always present themselves when someone or something important is in danger?

I felt Seven just did not 'get it'. She was given a chance to find her humanity by a resentful and fearful crew and yet she couldn't exercise that same compassion herself. She answered Janeway back by making it about her individuality. To a point that must have been true, Seven was like a rebellious teenager with Janeway.

i almost agree with you. where i get hung up is the situation when she made the choice was very different than when the captain made her decision. her actions likely saved many.

whereas chakotay endangers the entire crew unilaterally going after seska and gets a stern talkin to / slap on the finger.

 

[Voth commando1]

I loved this episode a lot and it show cased Seven's development and her relationship with Janeway.

I think from a pragmatic standpoint Seven was in the right. The creature while seeking to get home was still a threat and the Hirogen would have destroyed Voyager if they did not get their prey.

As both Paris and B'lanna stated Voyager couldn't hold them off or outrun them much longer.

Janeway was right in that compassion was the action of principle. It's just that compassion would have cost at the crew's lives in this instance.

Perhaps Janeway didn't think that was necessarily the case or perhaps she wasn't going to compromise her principles even if it was.

 

[Prax]

So, im on Season 4, the episode Prey. So far my view of the show since my prior episode post have remained relatively unchanged. I underestimated the show in my younger years and it's much better than I remember.

I still get stuck on a couple Janeway moments, but not so much that I cannot chalk it up to diversity of character. But in Prey, I seem to be particularly at odds with her logic in handling Seven's decision to beam the 8472 creature onto the Hirojan ship.

I understand and agree with Janeway's point, but once the cat was outta the bag so to speak, I have no idea what Seven was supposed to do other than what she did. I've never served in the military and I'm not a scientist but it seems, the ship was getting the shit kicked outta 'er, and 8472 wasn't under control...

I dunno beaming it onto the Hirojan ship seemed the only viable option to me. It seems the punishment unto Seven was pretty severe

I think in these kinds of situations, to understand Janeway's perspective, it helps to imagine the alien as a human being. It's a fictional cgi alien, making it easy for us to externalize our sympathies.

The other day, someone(in another thread) was talking about Ransom, and how Janeway was too harsh in her reaction towards him and his crew. He pleads with Janeway "I'll pay the consequences. My crew was just following orders" to which Janeway replies ominously "Their mistaaaake."

I've seen people get really pissed at her in this scene, but when you think about it... What was Ransom and the Equinox crew doing? They were kidnapping people, murdering them, and cooking them down for fuel. When you think of it in those terms, it suddenly becomes very dark, and very ugly.

Likewise in Prey. If you imagine species whatever as a person, a human(as that's how people like Janeway and Picard would see it), you can better appreciate the conflict between Janeway and Seven. The ending is ambiguous. Did Seven save Voyager? Probably. Was she right? There's no right answer. Was Janeway right? There's no easy answer either.

 

[GeekUSACarl]

I think in these kinds of situations, to understand Janeway's perspective, it helps to imagine the alien as a human being. It's a fictional cgi alien, making it easy for us to externalize our sympathies.

The other day, someone(in another thread) was talking about Ransom, and how Janeway was too harsh in her reaction towards him and his crew. He pleads with Janeway "I'll pay the consequences. My crew was just following orders" to which Janeway replies ominously "Their mistaaaake."

I've seen people get really pissed at her in this scene, but when you think about it... What was Ransom and the Equinox crew doing? They were kidnapping people, murdering them, and cooking them down for fuel. When you think of it in those terms, it suddenly becomes very dark, and very ugly.

Likewise in Prey. If you imagine species whatever as a person, a human(as that's how people like Janeway and Picard would see it), you can better appreciate the conflict between Janeway and Seven. The ending is ambiguous. Did Seven save Voyager? Probably. Was she right? There's no right answer. Was Janeway right? There's no easy answer either.

I understand her perspective but sometimes I think she is just in love with her own stubbornness which can be a benefit

but with the changing of the situation, I'd have to wonder if she asked herself what she herself would do, if she were in the corridor same as seven was.

 

[Prax]

There's one person I can relate to; Chakotay. I wouldn't want to walk down any corridor with a Hirogen, but if I had to, I wouldn't let him get behind me.

 

[Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME]

About Prey and Janeway and Seven attitudes, I'd say that both played their parts, with equal rights and wrongs. That resulted with Janeway privileging a humanitarian gesture toward a wounded sentient being, regardless the dangerosity of its nature (it would be interesting to see until what point Janeway would be ready to put her crew's safety on hold to save an unknown creature, wounded or in need - her "guests" have not all friendly intentions! <grin> ) and Seven, acting to protect at all costs her new Collective, even if this implies that she re-adopts her reflexes of former Borg: ‎implacability & ‎efficiency.

About the ‎comparison between Janeway and Ransom in Equinox (fs4's final & S5's ouverture), I would be more measured, even if I would tend to agree with Ransom at the end, when he said that it was easy to cling to principles when the Voyager's captain stands on a vessel with its bulkheads intact, manned by a crew that's not starving/dying. In fact, I'd say that Janeway's attitude & speech to Ransom & his remaining crew are particularly hypocritical in this episode : while she holds a strong moralizing discourse, mixing the protocol & principles to Ransom, she seems to forget that herself, toyed & broke the rules more than one time with the same protocol and principles, when she wanted to reach her goals at all coast.
-> in what, Ransom's decision to use the sentient beings as fuel, in Equinox (s4/s5, is different in the spirit from Janeway's decision to help Borgs to acquire a biological weapon they could use against Species 8472, biological weapon which wll be used afterwards to commit genocides against innoncent populations in all corners of the DQ as we will learn in Hope and Fear (s4e26). That ‎she accepts or to recognize it, she armed Borgs arms, in their ambition to add other racess to Borg perfection, in full knowledge of risk (Chakotay warned her, even if I still think he had other motivations in mind, like his rather thoughtless ‎detestation of Borgs!). And how has she come to that decision to choosing between the plague (the Borgs) and cholera (Species 8472)? Because her vessel & her crew were in danger if the crew had to meet & fight these both highly dangerousennemies. So, she accepted to make a covenant with the devil.

As for her attitude/harsh sanctions towards the remaining Equinox crew (she could have just give them a formal blame in their personal files & 1 month or 2 to do menial tasks, like to clean the ducts, etc...under close supervision before integrating the crew in using them in their field of competence), I'd talk about blind justice driven by anger and frustration of not being able to judge and punish the principal responsibles. I would have hoped seeing Janeway being as‎ comprehensive/forgivable with them in following seasons as she was with the members of her senior staff! -> some good scripts and even an ard could have been written about Marla Gilmore and Noah Lessing's long and hard road to absolution... (I'm happy to see that some fanfictions refered to Janeway/Lessing's tense relationship to a mutual understanding at the end, to the point that he will be here to defend her when she will be question on Equinox dramatic events)
-> again, a captain gives orders and subordinates have to obey them, from the XO to the cadet from low decks. their opinions are not needed or required, regardless the people are on Earth or on a vessel. Period.

 

[cosmic mouse]

Seven, acting to protect at all costs her new Collective, even if this implies that she re-adopts her reflexes of former Borg: ‎implacability & ‎efficiency.

...this is an excellent point. And it probably helps explain Seven's actions a bit more, aside from her distaste for 8472 due to her personal experiences.

 

[Prax]

About Prey and Janeway and Seven attitudes, I'd say that both played their parts, with equal rights and wrongs. That resulted with Janeway privileging a humanitarian gesture toward a wounded sentient being, regardless the dangerosity of its nature (it would be interesting to see until what point Janeway would be ready to put her crew's safety on hold to save an unknown creature, wounded or in need - her "guests" have not all friendly intentions! <grin> ) and Seven, acting to protect at all costs her new Collective, even if this implies that she re-adopts her reflexes of former Borg: ‎implacability & ‎efficiency.

About the ‎comparison between Janeway and Ransom in Equinox (fs4's final & S5's ouverture), I would be more measured, even if I would tend to agree with Ransom at the end, when he said that it was easy to cling to principles when the Voyager's captain stands on a vessel with its bulkheads intact, manned by a crew that's not starving/dying. In fact, I'd say that Janeway's attitude & speech to Ransom & his remaining crew are particularly hypocritical in this episode : while she holds a strong moralizing discourse, mixing the protocol & principles to Ransom, she seems to forget that herself, toyed & broke the rules more than one time with the same protocol and principles, when she wanted to reach her goals at all coast.
-> in what, Ransom's decision to use the sentient beings as fuel, in Equinox (s4/s5, is different in the spirit from Janeway's decision to help Borgs to acquire a biological weapon they could use against Species 8472, biological weapon which wll be used afterwards to commit genocides against innoncent populations in all corners of the DQ as we will learn in Hope and Fear (s4e26). That ‎she accepts or to recognize it, she armed Borgs arms, in their ambition to add other racess to Borg perfection, in full knowledge of risk (Chakotay warned her, even if I still think he had other motivations in mind, like his rather thoughtless ‎detestation of Borgs!). And how has she come to that decision to choosing between the plague (the Borgs) and cholera (Species 8472)? Because her vessel & her crew were in danger if the crew had to meet & fight these both highly dangerousennemies. So, she accepted to make a covenant with the devil.

As for her attitude/harsh sanctions towards the remaining Equinox crew (she could have just give them a formal blame in their personal files & 1 month or 2 to do menial tasks, like to clean the ducts, etc...under close supervision before integrating the crew in using them in their field of competence), I'd talk about blind justice driven by anger and frustration of not being able to judge and punish the principal responsibles. I would have hoped seeing Janeway being as‎ comprehensive/forgivable with them in following seasons as she was with the members of her senior staff! -> some good scripts and even an ard could have been written about Marla Gilmore and Noah Lessing's long and hard road to absolution... (I'm happy to see that some fanfictions refered to Janeway/Lessing's tense relationship to a mutual understanding at the end, to the point that he will be here to defend her when she will be question on Equinox dramatic events)
-> again, a captain gives orders and subordinates have to obey them, from the XO to the cadet from low decks. their opinions are not needed or required, regardless the people are on Earth or on a vessel. Period.

The Borg never got that technology to defeat the fluidic aliens. Janeway sort of put an end to their war. This freed up the Borg to engage in their previous ventures, like assimilating that one guy's people in Hope & Fear. So she didn't give the Borg a weapon, and the Borg didn't use any special weapon on anyone else.

And in equinox(with what I was saying earlier), if we think of the cgi space dolphins as people, which I assume we're supposed to, the Equinox crew was committing barbaric atrocities, just to get home sooner, and they took advantage of the good samaritan aliens.

Everything Janeway had done to build up relations with all those new aliens in the DQ, having been in situations just as desperate, had been undermined by Ransom, his sleazy first officer, and his evil EMH, etc.
And then they found Voyager, and Ransom chose the temptation of getting home over the comfort and security found on board her.
And when his ugly deeds were uncovered, he doubled down on digging his own grave.

I have no idea what he thought would happen if he did make it back. They couldn't just continue on like it never happened. If he admitted to his crimes, and turned himself in, he'd probably be executed. The rest would be sent to a penal colony(Well, the sleazy first officer might be executed, too. He's earned that reward the most).

 

[DonIago]

I doubt anyone would be executed. Even in Kirk's time the only death penalty on the books was for traveling to Talos IV.

 

[Prax]

And for mutiny. Janeway says "You know, you could all be hanged... for mutiny." I assume by that, she means it is still an existing law, but not really used anymore.

 

[Voth commando1]

She threatens to throw Seven in the brig at the end of the episode. I don't doubt she would have carried out that threat of Seven gave her reason to do so.

Problem was Janeway's compassion came with the added wrath of the Hirogen who had previously stated to have their civilization centered around the hunt and were without a moral center. Maybe Janeway thought she could outrun them once the Species 8472 had gotten back home. Maybe she knew well what was going to happen and decided compassion in the service to principle was worth the crew and ship's sacrifice.

Seven's calculation was utilitarian in nature-that creature's life for ours. Janeway's was deontological in nature.

 

[Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME]

And for mutiny. Janeway says "You know, you could all be hanged... for mutiny." I assume by that, she means it is still an existing law, but not really used anymore.

Sorry for my cynism but why executing officers when we can send them in suicide mission, like for example sending them facing a Borg Cube ans/or Hirogen soldiers?! I guess that there is a very few chance they survive!

(I don't know in US Army but the last execution of a French soldier, Lt Colonnel Jean Bastien-Thiry, in France, was in ... 1963 and the death penalty for penal cases were abolished in 1981).

 

[Voth commando1]

I think Janeway was speaking sarcastically or tongue in cheek when she said that. I don't believe mutiny in the Federation results in death. Probably imprisonment in New Zealand but nothing else.

 

[Prax]

She was speaking the same way people do in the army today. It's just one of those laws that still exists but is no longer used.

Summary executions became very distasteful after ww1, but still occasionally happened in ww2. I don't know when the last one happened in the U.S. military.

As for mutiny, today, I believe the punishment is death. The same goes for failing to suppress a mutiny, or failing to report a mutiny. That's not to say death is the only possible punishment.

 

[Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME]

I think Janeway was speaking sarcastically or tongue in cheek when she said that. I don't believe mutiny in the Federation results in death. Probably imprisonment in New Zealand but nothing else.

Maybe she was, maybe not but, do never forget that even if the practice was/is outdated, the fact that summary executions are still quoted in the militaty code, makes of this drastic solution, an alternative that can be used by all commanding officers if they judge it necessary to restore order in their workforce (ex
proven disobedience of certain officers with a high risk of mutiny...),

About imprisonment in New Zealand, allow me to remind you that for some
detainees, this punishment is worst than death, especially if they know that the duration of their sentence will be very very long, if not for the remaining of their lifetime, they would/could never endure the conditions of confinement/ testing slave labor in worst heat conditions. Not only on a physical level but also intellectual, moral and spiritual.
-> for ex, maybe Chakotay has a physical that lends to intense physical work but on an intellectual and/or spiritual level, not too much, especially if the conditions of his confinement are very severe.

 

[Voth commando1]

Maybe she was, maybe not but, do never forget that even if the practice was/is outdated, the fact that summary executions are still quoted in the militaty code, makes of this drastic solution, an alternative that can be used by all commanding officers if they judge it necessary to restore order in their workforce (ex
proven disobedience of certain officers with a high risk of mutiny...),

About imprisonment in New Zealand, allow me to remind you that for some
detainees, this punishment is worst than death, especially if they know that the duration of their sentence will be very very long, if not for the remaining of their lifetime, they would/could never endure the conditions of confinement/ testing slave labor in worst heat conditions. Not only on a physical level but also intellectual, moral and spiritual.
-> for ex, maybe Chakotay has a physical that lends to intense physical work but on an intellectual and/or spiritual level, not too much, especially if the conditions of his confinement are very severe.

I always got the impression the federation's penal system was pretty lax and comfortable.