Post War Ship Building

[Sgt_G]

No, it falls to Starfleet to defend the Federation, not Earth.

I'm trying to parse out your meaning. If I split it into two sentences, I get:

It falls to Starfleet to defend the Federation. It does not fall on Starfleet to defend Earth.
-or-
It falls to Starfleet to defend the Federation. It does not fall on Earth to defend the Federation.

Not sure which way you meant that. Either way, I would argue that it is up to Starfleet to defend Earth, and up to Earth to defend the Federation. Humans built the Federation. It was their idea. They brought all the other planets into the fold. Earth is the glue that holds everything together.

What's the saying? As Rome goes, so goes the Empire. So true is it for Earth and the Federation.

Can the Federation survive without Earth? Perhaps. But I believe it would be a hollow shell of what it is now.

And Starfleet, like the Federation, is made up of more than one species than just Homo sapiens.

In my view, it would depend on the era. During the TOS-era, I'd say that Starfleet was 99.99% human. It was mentioned that Spock was the only Vulcan to attend Starfleet Academy. It appeared that everyone on the all-Vulcan ship went to the Vulcan Science Academy. Even in the TAS series, there were few non-human crew members. Ditto in TMP. Only from the second movie on did we start to see more and more non-humans in Starfleet, but it was still a majority of humans.

 

[danellis]

I'm trying to parse out your meaning. If I split it into two sentences, I get:

It falls to Starfleet to defend the Federation. It does not fall on Starfleet to defend Earth.
-or-
It falls to Starfleet to defend the Federation. It does not fall on Earth to defend the Federation.

IMHO I took it to mean "It falls to Starfleet to defend the ENTIRE Federation, not JUST Earth"

That's certainly the view I hold, however, Earth is clearly the Federation's spiritual capital (and most probably its legal one too), so I'd expect Earth to be better defended, and its loss more significant. As you say:

Earth is the glue that holds everything together.

What's the saying? As Rome goes, so goes the Empire. So true is it for Earth and the Federation.

Does that largely depend on how centralised or decentralised the Federation is? Someone upthread made the analogy of the US surviving if Washington were to be conquered; I'd argue that that's partly because the US has a largely decentralised structure and spirit. If Beijing, London, or Tokyo, say, were to fall, I don't think that China, the UK, or Japan, respectively, would fair so well.

Can the Federation survive without Earth? Perhaps. But I believe it would be a hollow shell of what it is now.

In my view, it would depend on the era....Only from the second movie on did we start to see more and more non-humans in Starfleet, but it was still a majority of humans.

The odd "all Vulcan crew" or similar reference not withstanding, I've always taken that to be a budgetary/technological constraint rather than being the "true" case: that the Federation and Starfleet have always been more diverse.

dJE

 

[Dukhat]

IMHO I took it to mean "It falls to Starfleet to defend the ENTIRE Federation, not JUST Earth"

Yes, that's what I meant. I thought that was clear, but apparently not.

In my view, it would depend on the era. During the TOS-era, I'd say that Starfleet was 99.99% human. It was mentioned that Spock was the only Vulcan to attend Starfleet Academy. It appeared that everyone on the all-Vulcan ship went to the Vulcan Science Academy. Even in the TAS series, there were few non-human crew members. Ditto in TMP. Only from the second movie on did we start to see more and more non-humans in Starfleet, but it was still a majority of humans.

The era we're talking about is when Riker makes the statement that "you destroy Earth and you destroy the Federation," from ST:Nemesis. That's the post-TNG era.

And about Starfleet being "99.99%" human, as you say: ENT established that Starfleet was originally an Earth organization that was carried over once the Federation was formed, so it's not a stretch to say that by TOS it was still mostly a human-staffed organization. To add to that, Federation Starfleet ships resemble Earth ships with the saucers and nacelles, so obviously that was an influence as well.

 

[Tenacity]

Humans built the Federation. It was their idea.

This is what I took from ENT, the Coalition of Planets (precursor to the Federation) was a Earth idea. My "head canon" is that the United Federation of Planets is a reorganization of the Coalition of Planets subsequent to the Romulan Wars. Basically a name change.

the Federation and Starfleet have always been more diverse

You can make the argument that a lot of non-humans look just like Humans, but when someone was called by name on the TOS Enterprise (other than Spock) they had a Human name.

I think the other members of the Federation contributed crews (and ships) to Starfleet. But I don't think the ships were ever truly intergrated. Spock might have been only able to be on the Enterprise owing to being half-Human.

The TNG Enterprise somewhat the same but with a (very?) few more aliens. Troi was half-Human, Data was created by Humans, Worf was largely raise by Humans. I'd say that Guinan was a civilian contractors and not strictly speaking part of the crew.

So if someone blew up Washington DC, would all of the USA simply fall apart, even though the rest of the states are “just kind of there?”

Riker said Earth holds the Federation together, when did anyone ever say the same about Washington DC?

And how is having a “capital world” relevant to the discussion?

I don't think Earth being where the Federation organizational body meets is the point, Humans are the point. Humans (who live of Earth) created the Federation and are the ones holding it together.

Even if some other world held the “capital world” Earth would still be the linch pin. It isn't about the Federation council.

The era we're talking about is when Riker makes the statement that "you destroy Earth and you destroy the Federation," from ST:Nemesis. That's the post-TNG era.

Personally, the TOS series and movies are the "TOS era." And TNG, DS9, VOY series and the TNG movies are the "TNG era."

so it's not a stretch to say that by TOS it was still mostly a human-staffed organization.

TNG too, look at all the Human Admirals and Captains, non-Humans in senior positions seem to be the exceptions.

 

[Dukhat]

The point is that by the time of Nemesis, making a statement like "if Earth is destroyed then the Federation is too" is simply silly. Vulcan was also a founding member of the Federation, but when it was destroyed in the Kelvin timeline, did it cause the fall of the Federation there? No.

 

[Tenacity]

While important to the Federation, I'm am of the opinion that Vulcan is somewhat disconnected from the Federation other than diplomatically. They contribute people to Starfleet, sometimes entire ships, sure. But are they as intertwined socially, commercially, intellectually as Earth?

 

[Sgt_G]

No, it didn't (loss of Vulcan didn't cause the UFP to fall), but I believe, as apparently others here also believe, that Earth is more important to the Federation than any one of the other planets, even other founding members. [edited due to cross-posting]

And yes, I think that any country, even one as de-centralized as the USA, would be critically hurt with the loss of the capital. The USA could rebound, obviously, but other countries could not. England/France/Germany could survive the loss of London/Paris/Berlin but would be radically changed. Take out the capital city for other large countries such as South Africa, Saudi Arabia, or most of the South American countries, the the whole country would probably collapse.

And let's not forget that if Earth goes, all of the Federation's enemies would take the opportunity to land grab what they can while confusion reigns.

 

[Dukhat]

Bullshit. The TNG Federation is 150 members strong. If Earth fell, the transition of power would go to Vulcan, Tellar, Andor, Betazed, or any other Federation world.

 

[Tim Walker]

Alot of the ships would have just been damaged, so there would be a big mop up operation to retreave as many, non total,ships they can, so they can fix them, or use them as parts. This "Frankenstien" fleet would be put back in to service until other replacement ships could be built. Even in a "peaceful" federation, Supplies still have to be run, borders, and trade routes protected. Sometime just need a ship, any ship to fill the void.

I figure that by the end of the war, sections from civilian ships would be grafted on to sections of Star Fleet ships. Frankenstein fleet indeed.

 

[Timo]

The Warsaw Pact sure didn't survive the loss of Russia's leadership. And this without anybody actually nuking Moscow or threatening the potential heirs to the throne.

Is Earth the dominant military-industrial partner here? Looks very much like it. Vulcan had been at it for centuries before Earth came along, yet could only field a tiny handful of ships in the 2150s. Nothing suggests they would be doing better in Picard's time. The military impotence of Andor or Tellar in ENT might have been because of their potential upstart status, and they miĝt indeed have caught up since then - but again, nothing suggests they would have. Earth is the player with thousands of ships, all of them lookalikes of Earth's early experiments in shipbuilding.

With Earth gone, and supposedly all of Sol with her, what would survive of this military-industrial might? Just the extant ships elsewhere, or some sort of off-Sol potential the Andorians could take over? Hard to tell: we hear of shipyards in many locations, but are they divided into true and two-bit facilities the way starbases are when we see them up close? And if so, are there any true yards outside Sol?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Sgt_G]

The TNG Federation is 150 members strong.

Yes, but does it have 150 strong members?

And again, it does depend on the era. In the TOS years, the Federation had five or six core / founding members and a couple dozen (at most) associate members.

 

[Dukhat]

If the Federation falls if Earth is destroyed, then why would anyone want to join the Federation in the first place?

 

[Tenacity]

Valuable prizes.

 

[Dukhat]

Valuable prizes.

Oh yes, such valuable prizes like having to help defend a planet that's not even yours, because if it gets destroyed, then your planet falls too. Sounds like a great deal.

 

[Sgt_G]

Sounds like the Warsaw Pact or NATO.

 

[Tenacity]

Oh yes, such valuable prizes like having to help defend a planet that's not even yours, because if it gets destroyed, then your planet falls too. Sounds like a great deal.

Okay, why would a country want to join NATO, knowing that three-quarters of NATO's firepower and combat capacity came from a single NATO member (and most of the rest came from four of the other members)?

You protect the one big bolt that holds the engine on the plane.

It's in your best interest to do so. Without Earth how many of the Federation's members would remain in the Federation? What would be the point? While there's probably a short list of reasons to both join and remain in the Federation, top of the list is Starfleet and the protection it provides, you don't join the Federation because Starfleet explores.

Starfleet was created by Earth in the mid 22nd century, and continues to be dominated by Humans.

 

[Dukhat]

There's a huge difference between NATO and the Federation. NATO's primary purpose is a military alliance between its members. The Federation is not.

 

[Tenacity]

Some differences to be sure, and similarities as well.

I do believe that the biggest selling point of the Federation to potential new members is that of a defense alliance (there are secondary advantages yes), the bulk of that is Starfleet, which is dominated by Humans.

Species join the Federation because of Earth, after joining they send their diplomatic representatives to Earth.

 

[Scout101]

So, ships....?

 

[Timo]

...Still predominantly from Earth, or at least to Earth specs, for Earthling warriors and scientists and diplomats. I guess.

And not just because that's how it has always been, but because the vicinity of Earth would be the one part of the Federation the least hurt by the Dominion War. Vulcan is supposedly close to the Romulan Neutral Zone, and may have been hurt back when the Romulans were in cahoots with the Dominion (that is, the planet itself may have been safe, but its putative wider industrial dominion would come to grief sooner than its Earthen counterpart). And Andor, Tellar and Alpha Centauri are bundled up with Vulcan as targets at risk when the Dominion takes Betazed in "In the Pale Moonlight".

Blowing up shipyards was a major tactical goal in the war, at least for the Federation. And somehow the Dominion kept outproducing the Alpha Axis - perhaps not merely because they were so good at mass production and exploitation of conquered resources, but also because they struck back at UFP industries. Not at or around Earth, though.

So starships might well be more "Earth-centric" than ever before after this war...

Timo Saloniemi